Stamkos Debate - PreDeadline 2016

[Pookie]

Please stop quoting this "tax friendly" mantra.
He's a Canadian citizen, who has to declare his earnings and pay taxes to Revenue Canada just like everyone else. There's no big savings there in Florida.

Sigh

"Principle residence"

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hockey/lightning/inside-the-money-matters-for-steven-stamkos/2262766

 

[slozo]

It's not a matter of federal tax - it's state vs provincial tax rates that matter.

Which is why 8.5 million in Florida actually nets more cash in Stamkos' bank account than getting 10 million in Ontario.

Actually, I just checked with my wife (accountant and banker). I was wrong - in Stamkos ' case, he's probably declared himself a 'non-taxable resident'. Just removes you from Canadian health care benefits (he's covered by nhl players insurance policy) and CPP (a tiny drop in the bucket compared to his overall salary).

So yes, it is confirmed - playing in Florida matters a lot to take home pay. But that's a moot point, as he clearly wants out.

 

[slozo]

Sigh

"Principle residence"

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hockey/lightning/inside-the-money-matters-for-steven-stamkos/2262766

Yes, I realize my error now - but it was about getting taxed by Canada or not, wasn't about state tax rate differences.

 

[ACC1224]

Taxation would be so far down a list of considerations a Player would use in determining where they want to play.

 

[Menzinger]

Actually, I just checked with my wife (accountant and banker). I was wrong - in Stamkos ' case, he's probably declared himself a 'non-taxable resident'. Just removes you from Canadian health care benefits (he's covered by nhl players insurance policy) and CPP (a tiny drop in the bucket compared to his overall salary).

So yes, it is confirmed - playing in Florida matters a lot to take home pay. But that's a moot point, as he clearly wants out.

Agreed. If he wants out he won't let tax rates change his mind.

It likely only becomes an issue if he's stuck trying to decide between two offers that he likes.

 

[McMatthews]

The $ difference between endorsements in Canada and Florida will be significantly higher than the extra tax he will have to pay.

 

[Pookie]

Agreed. If he wants out he won't let tax rates change his mind.

It likely only becomes an issue if he's stuck trying to decide between two offers that he likes.

You think?

I don't know… these guys may only have high school educations but their "advisors" don't.

Caribbean islands, European cities have economies that are based on people with money trying to keep more of it.

The average person says well, $8M a year… who cares what you pay in tax. He keeps $4M… to play hockey.

But when you are the guy… playing hockey… and keeping $4M while a friend is keeping $6M… or $7M… I don't know… I'd say that becomes a factor.

 

[Stephen]

If taxation were the only consideration for players, I'm guessing Marty St. Louis wouldn't have demanded to be traded to New York State because the tax rates are highest in that state in all of the United States, not to mention cost of living is much higher, and I'm guessing people wouldn't be so willing to re-sign in California and Illinois where the state income tax is high. And yet evidence points to New York, Illinois and California being desirable locations.

Plus, if you commit eight years to a team solely based on tax rate, what happens when your $8.5 million Florida income is suddenly moved to any number of jurisdictions in North America? Better take the higher dollar amount and forget about it.

 

[Pookie]

The $ difference between endorsements in Canada and Florida will be significantly higher than the extra tax he will have to pay.

Based on what…. Subban's deals?

Stamkos would have a challenge representing Bell and Rogers given they own the team.

 

[McMatthews]

Based on what…. Subban's deals?

Stamkos would have a challenge representing Bell and Rogers given they own the team.

I'm far from an expert but I'd imagine he could break endorsements records in Toronto.

 

[Pookie]

I'm far from an expert but I'd imagine he could break endorsements records in Toronto.

Again, he already has deals with International companies like Bauer and Nike. He already inked with EA Sports and Tissot. He's done a deal with Sport Chek.

Think about the Jays and how popular they are. What local deals are out there that would pay millions? Bautista has a deal with Booster Juice.

The deals he has were signed based on his appeal as an athlete, not where he plays. Tampa is small market hockey and that was fine for Nike and Bauer and EA Sports and Tissot and even Sport Chek here in Canada. Sundin was in Toronto and signed with the same Nike.

Does anyone doubt that McDavid will have deals? Does Edmonton hurt him in that regard? Of course not. It's what they accomplish and their like-ability relative to the brand in question.

Maybe Reebok comes calling (if Nike dumps him). Maybe Gatorade. But they would come calling regardless of where he played.

The biggest thing he could do to boost his endorsement potential is not finish outside the top 20 in scoring.

 

[ACC1224]

I'm far from an expert but I'd imagine he could break endorsements records in Toronto.

Absolutely, even the blind could see that.

First thing his Agent will do is renegotiate his current deals and those companies will be happy to pay it as well as the new ones that will lineup.
If his profile was big in small market like Tampa, it will be massive in a major market like Toronto.

 

[Menzinger]

You think?

I don't know… these guys may only have high school educations but their "advisors" don't.

Caribbean islands, European cities have economies that are based on people with money trying to keep more of it.

The average person says well, $8M a year… who cares what you pay in tax. He keeps $4M… to play hockey.

But when you are the guy… playing hockey… and keeping $4M while a friend is keeping $6M… or $7M… I don't know… I'd say that becomes a factor.

I think money will be the most important factor but not the only one.

He'll want to factor in quality of life (ie is the city nice) and whether or not he sees a future with the team.

And If he hates the bolts coach he isn't going to resign there. We will have to see if they manage to amend their relationship during the playoffs.

 

[ACC1224]

In all the years of following hockey, taxation was never a thing until the possibility of Stamkos being available became more of a reality. Pretty absurd.

 

[Stephen]

Again, he already has deals with International companies like Bauer and Nike. He already inked with EA Sports and Tissot. He's done a deal with Sport Chek.

Think about the Jays and how popular they are. What local deals are out there that would pay millions? Bautista has a deal with Booster Juice.

The deals he has were signed based on his appeal as an athlete, not where he plays. Tampa is small market hockey and that was fine for Nike and Bauer and EA Sports and Tissot and even Sport Chek here in Canada. Sundin was in Toronto and signed with the same Nike.

Does anyone doubt that McDavid will have deals? Does Edmonton hurt him in that regard? Of course not. It's what they accomplish and their like-ability relative to the brand in question.

Maybe Reebok comes calling (if Nike dumps him). Maybe Gatorade. But they would come calling regardless of where he played.

The biggest thing he could do to boost his endorsement potential is not finish outside the top 20 in scoring.

Kyle Lowry and Josh Donaldson have endorsements with Roots.

Guys like Clarkson, Bernier and Lupul had deals with John Varvatos.

Joffrey Lupul had a deal with Got Style.

Why can't Stamkos have a Roots line, a nice deal with Harry Rosen or Holt Renfrew, a Ford Fusion commercial, Cineplex, cheesy law firms, whatever?

 

[rdawg1234]

In all the years of following hockey, taxation was never a thing until the possibility of Stamkos being available became more of a reality. Pretty absurd.

Yea I have no idea where this obsession with taxes came from?

If Stamkos has any interest in signing with us, taxes will be the last thing on his mind guys.

Why would the difference between him coming here and not coming here be taxes? He probably makes an extra 5+ million from his endorsements on top of a 10m contract that he would get, do you think he cares about losing 1-2m from that on taxes?

The reason why he'd come here in the first place was because Toronto is his home, I dont believe he's taking taxes into major consideration, I always felt it would be between Tampa or Toronto this summer.

 

[McMatthews]

Another thing people aren't really talking about is the potential opportunities for his family and Steven himself when he retires.

Guys like Tie Domi and Wendel Clark are making nice $ in their retirement.

He won't have that affect in Florida.

Hell, Jeff O'Neill has made a career for himself in retirement.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Another thing people aren't really talking about is the potential opportunities for his family and Steven himself when he retires.

Guys like Tie Domi and Wendel Clark are making nice $ in their retirement.

He won't have that affect in Florida.

Hell, Jeff O'Neill has made a career for himself in retirement.

Glenn healy

 

[Stephen]

Toronto sports teams have been in the dumpster for a long time, but the city does a great job developing elite talent. I think when athletes see the response to the Raptors success and the love Kyle Lowry gets, or the role Josh Donaldson is playing for the Toronto Blue Jays, or the electricity David Price brought to the city, why would you not want to dive head first into that kind of upward mobility on the Toronto Maple Leafs and be the king of it all? Just look at the way Connor McDavid talks about Toronto Maple Leafs and the ACC... The Leafs are in good hands, maybe the best hands in the entire game, for the first time in generations. Why would you not want to join something and have your legacy eclipse guys like Gilmour/Sundin/Clark all in front of your friends and family?

I'd want to join that.

 

[Stephen]

Another thing people aren't really talking about is the potential opportunities for his family and Steven himself when he retires.

Guys like Tie Domi and Wendel Clark are making nice $ in their retirement.

He won't have that affect in Florida.

Hell, Jeff O'Neill has made a career for himself in retirement.

Front office role, brand ambassador, everything.

Stammer can just ask his off season trainer what he thinks about signing as a free agent in Toronto.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Again, he already has deals with International companies like Bauer and Nike. He already inked with EA Sports and Tissot. He's done a deal with Sport Chek.

Think about the Jays and how popular they are. What local deals are out there that would pay millions? Bautista has a deal with Booster Juice.

The deals he has were signed based on his appeal as an athlete, not where he plays. Tampa is small market hockey and that was fine for Nike and Bauer and EA Sports and Tissot and even Sport Chek here in Canada. Sundin was in Toronto and signed with the same Nike.

Does anyone doubt that McDavid will have deals? Does Edmonton hurt him in that regard? Of course not. It's what they accomplish and their like-ability relative to the brand in question.

Maybe Reebok comes calling (if Nike dumps him). Maybe Gatorade. But they would come calling regardless of where he played.

Very fair point.

Just look at Lebron James. His endorsements went from $28M to $33M per year after moving to Miami. Just a 5M increase.

I think it comes down to three factors though...

1) 5M increase or 5-10% increase in endorsements is still noticeable (using Lebron's example)
2) Easier to ask for a lot more with NEXT endorsement contract involving the same companies
3) Many additional local endorsements (which add up in a hurry)

In the end, Stamkos is not coming to Toronto for endorsements. That's just an added bonus and not a real gamechanger.

The real factors will be Mike Babcock, Hometown, and the Leafs paying him what he wants.

 

[HellasLEAF]

No I don't, what do you mean? He's not playing anywhere close to the level he was playing at before his injury, do you know what I mean? I'm sure he didn't "forget" how to score, but he isn't scoring like he used to, that's for sure. So if he didn't forget, what's the issue?

I'm also encouraged by the fact that he is playing better lately as I do feel he is going to end up here. It's still only been a few weeks though, not exactly a massive sample size when we're talking about committing to a huge cap hit for a 7 year term.

I actually posted what I feel to be the issue. Unless you missed it. And how do you know that he isn't playing as well. Do you watching Lightning games on the regular? Or just the stat sheet this season.

He scored 43 goals last year btw.

 

[ACC1224]

Very fair point.

Just look at Lebron James. His endorsements went from $28M to $33M per year after moving to Miami. Just a 5M increase.

I think it comes down to two factors though...

1) 5M increase or 5-10% increase in endorsements is still noticeable (using Lebron's example)
2) Easier to ask for a lot more with NEXT endorsement contract involving the same companies
3) Many additional local endorsements (which add up in a hurry)

In the end, Stamkos is not coming to Toronto for endorsements. That's just an added bonus and not a real gamechanger.

The real factors will be Mike Babcock, Hometown, and the Leafs paying him what he wants.

This guy gets it.

I don't follow Basketball but didn't James leave the Tax haven of Florida rather quickly to go back to Ohio?

 

[Pookie]

Why can't Stamkos have a Roots line, a nice deal with Harry Rosen or Holt Renfrew, a Ford Fusion commercial, Cineplex, cheesy law firms, whatever?

He certainly could. I don't think anyone is saying that the endorsements would dry up.

It's the argument that they would be more plentiful and lucrative… and in some cases double what he is making to offset the tax loss.

I don't see a Ford Fusion commercial or law firm as being the pot of gold.

His earning power as a star in this league is independent of where he plays. I mean, look what he's done while in Tampa?

 

[BayStreetBully]

Stamkos would be way more marketable as a Leaf. Despite that, Stamkos won't take less to be a Leaf, because he doesn't want to make up for the difference in money through endorsements. He wants to be paid market value through his NHL salary, for two reasons.

One, because no one likes to be paid in uncertain hypotheticals or bonuses. Two, because he will be under union pressure to get fair value for every other player's benefit.

Even so, he will get paid anywhere, regardless. It's more about how much he balances being the hometown hero vs. how much he wants to win now.