So, seriously, who is getting traded?

[Hawkaholic]

You did. Otherwise you wouldn't have a problem with Bowman giving him away.

No I didn't, I said I don't think Bowman wants to give him away.

 

[hawksrule]

Anything Versteeg gives this year is gravy, imo. I'm hopeful he'll contribute, but I have no expectations. I'd much rather keep Leddy, who has so much more potential.

 

[Taze em]

I want to keep Versteeg, let him get started well (I think he bounces back) then trade him for good value in January when Teravainen is ready, slot Shaw back on the wing.

 

[Hawkaholic]

We won't be able to keep any of them past this year I bet, so it's not a big deal to me either way. Keep Oduya for this year at least, Imo.

 

[hawksrule]

We won't be able to keep any of them past this year I bet, so it's not a big deal to me either way. Keep Oduya for this year at least, Imo.

Yeah, seems to be the case without an unexpected rise in the cap. And I agree about keeping Oduya for the short term. I want to win this year so *** badly.

 

[Taze em]

Trade Leddy on his own. Think you can get a 1st for him solo. replace with Cumiskey.

Trade for nothing/Waive Roszival. Bring up TVR/Dahlbeck.

If the bottom pair doesn't work out you can make an inexpensive bottom 2D deal in season/at the deadline.

Not a terrible solution.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Why do you think a team would give up a 1st for Leddy? He hasn't proven to be a top 4 defender and teams know the Hawks are in a bad spot with cap

Sending Rozy down to AHL is not viable and doesn't get Hawks under cap as he would carry 975k cap hit and Hawks would need to replace him on roster. Rozy likely clears waivers IMO as teams haven't wanted him for free at this point

Sending Rozy to AHL leaves team 397+K over cap
Replacing him with another player leaves team nearly a 1M over cap

 

[CallMeShaft]

We won't be able to keep any of them past this year I bet, so it's not a big deal to me either way. Keep Oduya for this year at least, Imo.

How much do you think Toews and Kane will be making next year?

 

[chico_hawk]

At this point, I think Bowman would give away Versteeg/Rozy for free if there were any takers. That wasn't the case two months ago, but now it has to be. Otherwise, you're saying he'd stubbornly hang onto Versteeg because he can't get fair market value for him, at the expense of having to trade a player with actual value, i.e.. Leddy.

I'm more than baffled at some who think Bowman would rather hang on to an undervalued Versteeg than an undervalued Leddy, especially when they at the same time say Versteeg has no value at all now & may never have any (yet for some reason believe that hanging on to him will increase his value, making the assumption that he is worth a lot...). I think the real issue is some just don't like or see any value in Leddy, which I don't think is a view Hawks management shares.

Bowman isn't going to hang on to a guy who at his best might be worth a 3rd round pick, while dumping a guy who is worth at least a 1st, for a 2nd or 3rd rounder

A 1st round pick is worth exponentially more than a 2nd which is exponentially worth more than a 3rd...based on the historic odds of those picks making it in the NHL.

Yet we have posts suggesting that since Bowman will be able to snag a 3rd rounder for Leddy, but nothing for Versteeg, he's going to deal Leddy.

Does not compute.

 

[Taze em]

Why do you think a team would give up a 1st for Leddy? He hasn't proven to be a top 4 defender and teams know the Hawks are in a bad spot with cap

Sending Rozy down to AHL is not viable and doesn't get Hawks under cap as he would carry 975k cap hit and Hawks would need to replace him on roster

Leddy is worth a 1st. I've had this argument so many times it's crazy. I'm not restyling the pages of justification but I'll give you cliffs:
1) His stats say he is
2) Bowman's cap dump trades say he is
3) his age says he is
4) his advanced stats say he is worth more than a 1st.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Why do you think a team would give up a 1st for Leddy? He hasn't proven to be a top 4 defender and teams know the Hawks are in a bad spot with cap

Sending Rozy down to AHL is not viable and doesn't get Hawks under cap as he would carry 975k cap hit and Hawks would need to replace him on roster

Sending Rozy to AHL leaves team 397+K over cap
Replacing him with another player leaves team nearly a 1M over cap

This is it. If we were dealing Leddy from a position of strength (say at the trade deadline), we might well be able to get a (late) first for him. However, everyone knows Bowman is headed straight towards a brick wall deadline re cap compliance means he's not going to get any favours.

Leddy is worth a 1st. I've had this argument so many times it's crazy. I'm not restyling the pages of justification but I'll give you cliffs:
1) His stats say he is
2) Bowman's cap dump trades say he is
3) his age says he is
4) his advanced stats say he is worth more than a 1st.

Bowman's poor bargaining position says he isn't.

Trade Leddy on his own. Think you can get a 1st for him solo. replace with Cumiskey.

Trade for nothing/Waive Roszival. Bring up TVR/Dahlbeck.

If the bottom pair doesn't work out you can make an inexpensive bottom 2D deal in season/at the deadline.

Not a terrible solution.

I don't agree he'd get that at this point of time. But it would be easier for me to understand your position if you could give a few examples of specific teams who you believe would, right now, give up their first for him (being sure to bear in mind the team's cap position because obviously we can't afford to take on salary in return).

 

[CallMeShaft]

I'm more than baffled at some who think Bowman would rather hang on to an undervalued Versteeg than an undervalued Leddy, especially when they at the same time say Versteeg has no value at all now & may never have any (yet for some reason believe that hanging on to him will increase his value, making the assumption that he is worth a lot...). I think the real issue is some just don't like or see any value in Leddy, which I don't think is a view Hawks management shares.

Bowman isn't going to hang on to a guy who at his best might be worth a 3rd round pick, while dumping a guy who is worth at least a 1st, for a 2nd or 3rd rounder

A 1st round pick is worth exponentially more than a 2nd which is exponentially worth more than a 3rd...based on the historic odds of those picks making it in the NHL.

Yet we have posts suggesting that since Bowman will be able to snag a 3rd rounder for Leddy, but nothing for Versteeg, he's going to deal Leddy.

Does not compute.

There's a difference between undervaluing Leddy and undervaluing Versteeg. One trade should net you at least a 2nd rounder (while lowing the cap hit by 2.7mil), the other might get you a 4th (while dropping the cap by only 2.2mil).

Also, Leddy is a RFA after the season is over. If we decide to keep him for next year, we'll have to pay for it. Versteeg, on the other hand, would still be at his current cap hit for the next season (which would be a steal if he can get back to playing like he did prior to his injury).

Also, Versteeg (at his best) is worth more than a 4th.

 

[hawksrule]

If trading Leddy was the plan, this should have been done months ago, back when Bollig was worth a 3rd. It will be insane if/when Leddy can't return much more than Bollig.

 

[CallMeShaft]

If trading Leddy was the plan, this should have been done months ago, back when Bollig was worth a 3rd. It will be insane if/when Leddy can't return much more than Bollig.

To be honest, no one here thought trading Bollig would net us a 3rd. A 5th maybe. Bowman may surprise us with the Leddy trade (though don't count on it).

 

[Hawkaholic]

How much do you think Toews and Kane will be making next year?

If I had to guess, 10.5mil each.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Leddy is worth a 1st. I've had this argument so many times it's crazy. I'm not restyling the pages of justification but I'll give you cliffs:
1) His stats say he is
2) Bowman's cap dump trades say he is
3) his age says he is
4) his advanced stats say he is worth more than a 1st.

1) His defensive play says he is not
2) This trade is nothing like past cap dump trades
3) 300+ games and still not top 4 say he is not
4) His defensive stats say he is not worth a 1st

I hope I am wrong but expecting a 1st for Leddy at this point is setting yourself up for disappointment

 

[hawksrule]

To be honest, no one here thought trading Bollig would net us a 3rd. A 5th maybe. Bowman may surprise us with the Leddy trade (though don't count on it).

Fine, but point being that waiting has only hurt Bowman's negotiating position.

 

[CallMeShaft]

If I had to guess, 10.5mil each.

Which would make things tight. Doesn't mean we cant keep one of Oduya/Leddy/Versteeg. Between the cap's projected raise and possibly trading away Bickell and Sharp, we'll be fine.

 

[chico_hawk]

If trading Leddy was the plan, this should have been done months ago, back when Bollig was worth a 3rd. It will be insane if/when Leddy can't return much more than Bollig.

That is why I don't see Bowman dealing Leddy now, especially if they can't get fair value for him. It AIN'T happening.

Clearly, Leddy is worth a LOT more than Versteeg - and if need be, Bowman will call in a favor from Bergevin or Cheveldayoff to take Versteeg off his hands for future considerations to get under the cap, rather than simply give Leddy away.

The fact that he hasn't found a deal for Leddy to date tells me it ain't happening now, before the season, unless someone steps up to the plate and gives up a 1st +.

Bowman doesn't simply make rash, last minute moves out of desperation - he never has before & I strongly doubt he starts now.

 

[Taze em]

1) His defensive play says he is not
2) This trade is nothing like past cap dump trades
3) 300+ games and still not top 4 say he is not
4) His defensive stats say he is not worth a 1st

I hope I am wrong but expecting a 1st for Leddy at this point is setting yourself up for disappointment

Let's work backwards here. What do you think Jake Gardiner was worth before he signed his new contract? I'd say somewhere around a 1st + good prospect.

I think us Hawks fans are constantly shocked at the return for our players (Brouwer, Buff, etc) because our bad players ARENT BAD. Shocking revelation. The quality of player you are watching far exceeds what others are watching. It is a bias all us fans have, someone has to be a scapegoat. Leddy compared around the league is shockingly competent defensively and top, top tier offensively especially when you factor in his age.

 

[Taze em]

I don't agree he'd get that at this point of time. But it would be easier for me to understand your position if you could give a few examples of specific teams who you believe would, right now, give up their first for him (being sure to bear in mind the team's cap position because obviously we can't afford to take on salary in return).

I think you are operating under the assumption that I am talking about a 2015 1st. I agree that the list is probably pretty short if you are looking for a 2015 1st. Teams have a good idea of where there teams will be this season. Florida, SJ spring to mind.

If you make it a 2016 1st I think you get a lot more trade partners accepting that deal.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Let's work backwards here. What do you think Jake Gardiner was worth before he signed his new contract? I'd say somewhere around a 1st + good prospect.

I think us Hawks fans are constantly shocked at the return for our players (Brouwer, Buff, etc) because our bad players ARENT BAD. Shocking revelation. The quality of player you are watching far exceeds what others are watching. It is a bias all us fans have, someone has to be a scapegoat. Leddy compared around the league is shockingly competent defensively and top, top tier offensively especially when you factor in his age.

Gardiner straight up to me was worth 2nd + prospect. He has talent but is a bit overhyped at this point

Its nearly October again those cap trades are not at all comparable to situation the Hawks face now

Also with the 2015 Cap Purge on horizon the future status of Leddy and his very costly qualifying offer needs to be factored into likelihood that he is traded as well

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

I think you are operating under the assumption that I am talking about a 2015 1st. I agree that the list is probably pretty short if you are looking for a 2015 1st. Teams have a good idea of where there teams will be this season. Florida, SJ spring to mind.

If you make it a 2016 1st I think you get a lot more trade partners accepting that deal.

Ok, what teams do you think that would be?

 

[Taze em]

Gardiner straight up to me was worth 2nd + prospect. He has talent but is a bit overhyped at this point

Its nearly October again those cap trades are not at all comparable to situation the Hawks face now

Also with the 2015 Cap Purge on horizon the future status of Leddy and his very costly qualifying offer needs to be factored into likelihood that he is traded as well

Ok well we just have vastly different valuation on PMD then. They are the way the league is going and are a huge asset. PP QBs have a lot of value. Guys who can skate your team out of trouble have a lot of value. Guys who are 23 who could play for you for 10-15 more years that can do that have ALOT of value.

It isn't even a hard sell for your fanbase. He is 23 and a Stanley Cup winner, you aren't going to get a lot of blowback on that deal.

Anyways, If Rundblad was worth a 2nd how would a player like Gardiner only be worth a 2nd+a prospect?

 

[Taze em]

Ok, what teams do you think that would be?

Basically all teams.

http://www.capgeek.com/payrolls/?charts_year=2014 from Vancouver all the way down. 18 teams give or take.

I'd highlight Florida, Arizona, Winnipeg, Calgary, Buffalo, San Jose, Carolina, New Jersey.

Everyone, literally everyone can use Nick Leddy. Hawks fans need a whipping boy and he's been it, doesn't mean he's been bad or anything close to bad. Look at his numbers, advanced or counting stats. They are in rarified air for a defensemen his age.