Player Discussion Shea Weber - [mod warning post #26)]

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Price is Wright

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Habs just paid over the last two years 16 M $ in bonus + salary .... + gave away Subban for him....

He was supposed to be the ultimate leader....

I'm sure players in the locker room look up to him and respect him, but the leadership award is named after a guy who threatened to sit out if he wasn't traded, and like a year later wanted his contract ripped up with the new team and sat out all the way to January in protest to get it.
 

Kriss E

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All good questions. I don't know him so I can't answer that All I can say is that when you are being paid millions to do a job, you approach it as such. I think sometimes we as fans think that the players see it as more than a job. Yes, they want to win it all, but they also know that statistically it is unlikely. You have a guy like Hank in NY come out and say that even if they rebuild he wants to be a part of it.
The players does not sign any obligation to the team that stipulates he cannot request a trade. There is no such clauses in NHL contracts, as far as I know. What the player commits to are the terms of the contract, and it is understood that the contract is tradable. So if a player doesn't want to stick around for rebuilding years, he can ask for a trade. There is nothing unprofessional about this.
What is unprofessional is Radulov bouncing to Russia because he doesn't want to follow the rules. Or what Spezza did. Or Drouin refusing to go to AHL.
Asking for a trade because you want to be on a competing team rather than a rebuilding one is perfectly fine.

Hank has been in NYC for his entire career and he's about to turn 36, he's been there for 13 years. Once you get at that age, your priorities can start to change as you are nearing the end of your career, and finishing your career where you started is a rarity that can also mean a lot to a person.
Weber has already been traded, he didn't ask to come to Mtl, he isn't from here and has no attachment to this city, and he's 32. He can easily go play for another team for an extra 5 years. Can't say the same about the King.

Anyways, each situation is unique.
 

Kriss E

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Who believed that **** anyway? Did he ever lead the Predators anywhere?

Not that it means he's a poor leader or anything, it's just all the proof you need to consider Bergevin a dinosaur. He acquired Shaw for the same reason.
It is just one of those old hockey cliches people like to cling onto. Leadership is massively overrated. Just like the contributions of an enforcer.
I blame hollywood. All the battle movies, be it sports or actual battles, come with some speech by the coach or leader.
In comes Weber. He's big. A Mountain of a Man. The King of Country. All he has to do is look at you and you instanty play better, said combattant Gorges. When you get Weber, you do not ask for more, said Duke Bergevin. He walks into the room, people listen, said cleric Babcock.
Idiots. f***ing Idiots.
Ya, sure, once in a blue moon, you hold a speech or rally the troops that gives an extra bit of motivation and adrenaline. Once in a f***ing blue moon that may happen. But essentially, if you ain't good, nothing is going to change, which should have been obvious but I guess some needed the proof.
Sadly, I'm sure some still believe in this fairytale idea of leadership.
 

loudi94

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The players does not sign any obligation to the team that stipulates he cannot request a trade. There is no such clauses in NHL contracts, as far as I know. What the player commits to are the terms of the contract, and it is understood that the contract is tradable. So if a player doesn't want to stick around for rebuilding years, he can ask for a trade. There is nothing unprofessional about this.
What is unprofessional is Radulov bouncing to Russia because he doesn't want to follow the rules. Or what Spezza did. Or Drouin refusing to go to AHL.
Asking for a trade because you want to be on a competing team rather than a rebuilding one is perfectly fine.

Hank has been in NYC for his entire career and he's about to turn 36, he's been there for 13 years. Once you get at that age, your priorities can start to change as you are nearing the end of your career, and finishing your career where you started is a rarity that can also mean a lot to a person.
Weber has already been traded, he didn't ask to come to Mtl, he isn't from here and has no attachment to this city, and he's 32. He can easily go play for another team for an extra 5 years. Can't say the same about the King.

Anyways, each situation is unique.

Absolutely true. He could ask to be traded but he can't control to where. My point was that in his situation requesting a trade in order to chase a Cup may mean he ends up on a team that is less desirable than he is currently on. Weber didn't want to leave Nashville and I doubt he wants to leave Montreal. Believe it or not, Montreal is a great place to play even though things are tough.
 

Kriss E

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Absolutely true. He could ask to be traded but he can't control to where. My point was that in his situation requesting a trade in order to chase a Cup may mean he ends up on a team that is less desirable than he is currently on. Weber didn't want to leave Nashville and I doubt he wants to leave Montreal. Believe it or not, Montreal is a great place to play even though things are tough.
Well that would be a pretty dick move by the organization.
Weber didn't want to leave Nashville, sure, I can see that. They had just made it as far as they had ever been in his entire career. But they moved him for a better player, so his situation changed.
I never said he wanted to leave Montreal, but if the plan is to suck for a few years and rebuild, I could see him wanting out.
 

DramaticGloveSave

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This Weber is falling off talk is way premature. The guy is injured. Let's get him back. That said, if someone pays out the yinyang for him, I'd deal him. Was talking to a Leaf fan buddy yesterday, and he was saying Weber would be his #1 target at the deadline. We did a mini negotiation, and settled on a Weber and Lehkonen for a Nylander and Liljegren trade. People who know hockey, know what a f***ing stud Weber is.
 

sandviper

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What's the latest on him? Is he coming back this year?

This was from a Saturday:

Shea Weber, who has missed the last 18 games with a left foot injury, is no longer wearing a protective boot and is doing off-ice workouts, but still isn’t skating. Julien said there’s no date set on when the defenceman might return to the lineup.

Source: Canadiens Notebook: Antti Niemi will start in goal Saturday against Ducks

So, assuming he's working out and we still haven't heard about him going on the ice, he's definitely not coming back this week. Assume when he does on-ice drills, he's maybe 3-5 days away, so if he steps on end-of-the-week, we may see him as early as the Avs game next week.

I'm no doctor though like Recchi, so who knows really...
 
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Lshap

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To be fair, it could be argued both Beaulieu and Weber were at their best last season when they were put together.
I agree, though many won't. There's no denying Beaulieu's talent, or his mistakes. The kid had so many tools (minus a decent slapshot) that showed up in flashes and then disappeared the next game. To me, that screamed bad development. You can't teach the natural skills he has, but you CAN nurture confidence, you CAN teach good habits, and you CAN model maturity. Beaulieu's become a mess, but I remain convinced it's because his confidence was left flapping in the wind, and he wasn't given the advantages of playing alongside a great mentor like Weber for long enough. A shame really.
 
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Lshap

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This was from a Saturday:



Source: Canadiens Notebook: Antti Niemi will start in goal Saturday against Ducks

So, assuming he's working out and we still haven't heard about him going on the ice, he's definitely not coming back this week. Assume when he does on-ice drills, he's maybe 3-5 days away, so if he steps on end-of-the-week, we may see him as early as the Avs game next week.

I'm no doctor though like Recchi, so who knows really...
Thanks for the update.

This has nothing to do with Weber 'declining' or 'breaking down', or any other age-related meme. He injured his foot, it's healing, but there's no reason to rush him back.
 

DramaticGloveSave

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I agree, though many won't. There's no denying Beaulieu's talent, or his mistakes. The kid had so many tools (minus a decent slapshot) that showed up in flashes and then disappeared the next game. To me, that screamed bad development. You can't teach the natural skills he has, but you CAN nurture confidence, you CAN teach good habits, and you CAN model maturity. Beaulieu's become a mess, but I remain convinced it's because his confidence was left flapping in the wind, and he wasn't given the advantages of playing alongside a great mentor like Weber for long enough. A shame really.
Beaulieu was a great skater with good skill for a D, but he simply doesn't care about hockey that much, and his natural IQ out there is lacking. I don't think he was a bad gamble, but it never came to me. Sometimes that happens when you are drafting 18 year olds. I think the development blame game is a reach here once again.
 

RealityBytes

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Feb 11, 2013
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This Weber is falling off talk is way premature. The guy is injured. Let's get him back. That said, if someone pays out the yinyang for him, I'd deal him. Was talking to a Leaf fan buddy yesterday, and he was saying Weber would be his #1 target at the deadline. We did a mini negotiation, and settled on a Weber and Lehkonen for a Nylander and Liljegren trade. People who know hockey, know what a ****ing stud Weber is.

Did he throw in Matthews and Marner for Pacioretty as well?
 

Burke the Legend

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This Weber is falling off talk is way premature. The guy is injured. Let's get him back. That said, if someone pays out the yinyang for him, I'd deal him. Was talking to a Leaf fan buddy yesterday, and he was saying Weber would be his #1 target at the deadline. We did a mini negotiation, and settled on a Weber and Lehkonen for a Nylander and Liljegren trade. People who know hockey, know what a ****ing stud Weber is.

Yeah it's weird because the guy ( a NHL ironman who rarely missed any single games) gets his ankle shattered by a shot suddenly now he's this fragile old man.

He played a great playoff series last year against the Rangers, was rated #10 D-man on yahoo fantasy drafts in pre-season (which I find to be an interesting aggregator, better than hf polls anyway, since it's largely gamblers with a stake in their picks, not just fanboys), and was on a 20 goals / 50 point pace this year before he went down 26 games in (small sample I know, but still a productive start).

He could really be the guy that puts the Leafs over the top, him + Rielly would be fantastic, but any discussion on hfboards and you just get whining about his contract which really isn't that bad. You gotta hope for Toronto's sake that their management are smarter and less tight than their HF fan contingent.
 

DramaticGloveSave

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Yeah it's weird because the guy ( a NHL ironman who rarely missed any single games) gets his ankle shattered by a shot suddenly now he's this fragile old man.

He played a great playoff series last year against the Rangers, was rated #10 D-man on yahoo fantasy drafts in pre-season (which I find to be an interesting aggregator, better than hf polls anyway, since it's largely gamblers with a stake in their picks, not just fanboys), and was on a 20 goals / 50 point pace this year before he went down 26 games in (small sample I know, but still a productive start).

He could really be the guy that puts the Leafs over the top, him + Rielly would be fantastic, but any discussion on hfboards and you just get whining about his contract which really isn't that bad. You gotta hope for Toronto's sake that their management are smarter and less tight than their HF fan contingent.
The leafs are at an interesting point. They want to take a step forward, and for them that means winning a series in the playoffs... but as it stands they'd be underdogs against Boston round 1. They have a lot of pieces but they need that steadying presence on their backend. Weber would be perfect for them. The question is would they be willing to give up what they'd need to get him.
 

loudi94

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Well that would be a pretty dick move by the organization.
Weber didn't want to leave Nashville, sure, I can see that. They had just made it as far as they had ever been in his entire career. But they moved him for a better player, so his situation changed.
I never said he wanted to leave Montreal, but if the plan is to suck for a few years and rebuild, I could see him wanting out.
If the best offer comes from say, Arizona, then so be it. For me the issue isn’t about Weber wanting to be traded because I just don’t believe it to be something he is interested in, but rather why would we make a move that would cripple us for years considering what we gave up to get him. There are few D out there better than him and any return would be underwhelming. Questioning his skill set and his “decline” is misguided. All indications are that he will probably be effective late into his thirties.
 

Lshap

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Beaulieu was a great skater with good skill for a D, but he simply doesn't care about hockey that much, and his natural IQ out there is lacking. I don't think he was a bad gamble, but it never came to me. Sometimes that happens when you are drafting 18 year olds. I think the development blame game is a reach here once again.
We'll never know what Beaulieu or any of our failed 1st-rounders might have been. Maybe he, Tinordi, McCarron, etc. were terrible picks whose ceilings were fringe NHL, at best. But there's a real possibility they were stuffed into the AHL meat-grinder and by the time they appeared in the NHL, Therrien said, "Oh look -- sausage!", and that was it for them.
 

Price is Wright

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If the best offer comes from say, Arizona, then so be it. For me the issue isn’t about Weber wanting to be traded because I just don’t believe it to be something he is interested in, but rather why would we make a move that would cripple us for years considering what we gave up to get him. There are few D out there better than him and any return would be underwhelming. Questioning his skill set and his “decline” is misguided. All indications are that he will probably be effective late into his thirties.

He's worth more in theory than practice. I don't care if he will be effective in his late thirties. Let him be effective for a contender. We're the early 00s Kings with Rob Blake at this point.
 

DramaticGloveSave

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We'll never know what Beaulieu or any of our failed 1st-rounders might have been. Maybe he, Tinordi, McCarron, etc. were terrible picks whose ceilings were fringe NHL, at best. But there's a real possibility they were stuffed into the AHL meat-grinder and by the time they appeared in the NHL, Therrien said, "Oh look -- sausage!", and that was it for them.
I'm of the opinion that it's ultimately up to the player. Just like with the rest of life, making excuses is for losers. It's up to you to be the best version of yourself you can be. These coaches are doing their best to try and develop these guys, but they can only do so much, and ultimately it comes down to the player themselves. Sometimes they have it in them, and sometimes they just don't. Sometimes it's physical limitations (McCarron) and sometimes it's mental (Beaulieu). When you're drafting 18 year olds, you're going to have some misses.

I think the mistake organizations can make though is bringing a guy along too quickly. But the difference in development because of coaching organization to organization is minimal.
 
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Captain Mountain

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If the best offer comes from say, Arizona, then so be it. For me the issue isn’t about Weber wanting to be traded because I just don’t believe it to be something he is interested in, but rather why would we make a move that would cripple us for years considering what we gave up to get him. There are few D out there better than him and any return would be underwhelming. Questioning his skill set and his “decline” is misguided. All indications are that he will probably be effective late into his thirties.

The counter argument is that the Habs are already crippled for years and Weber has significant value.

Also, there are NO indications that Weber will be effective late into his 30s, beyond optimistic correlations to slightly comparable outliers. It could be the case, it could not. Its a bet.
 

Lshap

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I'm of the opinion that it's ultimately up to the player. Just like with the rest of life, making excuses is for losers. It's up to you to be the best version of yourself you can be. These coaches are doing their best to try and develop these guys, but they can only do so much, and ultimately it comes down to the player themselves. Sometimes they have it in them, and sometimes they just don't. Sometimes it's physical limitations (McCarron) and sometimes it's mental (Beaulieu). When you're drafting 18 year olds, you're going to have some misses.

I think the mistake organizations can make though is bringing a guy along too quickly. But the difference in development because of coaching organization to organization is minimal.
I think you're underestimating the effect of development on a teenager. These players are treated like men because they're physically big, but we forget how young they really are. They're kids. The effect of an adult coach, the influence of a 30-year old teammate -- it's huge for these young guys. Sure, there's still plenty of room for a player's own responsibility, but they can be improved or damaged by the people whose job it is to guide them.
 
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Price is Wright

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The counter argument is that the Habs are already crippled for years and Weber has significant value.

Also, there are NO indications that Weber will be effective late into his 30s, beyond optimistic correlations to slightly comparable outliers. It could be the case, it could not. Its a bet.

Also there's a huge difference in wanting a mid 30s Markov to still be around when we are chasing a Cup and having a mid 30s Weber when we are going nowhere. I don't care if he's still effective. He isn't winning us anything. Trade him.
 
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