Speculation: Sharks Talk III (Trades, Roster Talk, Etc.)

[Vaasa]

You're totally crazy. Jumbo has been a great leader and the team loves him.

I disagree. I love JT's skill, but he plays mentally lazy way too often. He doesn't lead by example except on rare occasions. Having the most skill or the highest paycheck should not make him the default Captain. The guy who leads by example is the one I want as Captain. And while Pavs isn't perfect, when it comes to leading by example the only other guy on the team who shows a similar level of commitment is Vlasic. Whereas, JT is probably 4th or 5th on my list for that category.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Its hard to speak on leadership when none of us are in the locker room.

 

[Vaasa]

Its hard to speak on leadership when none of us are in the locker room.

True. But you say the same thing about almost anything related to the team. So I'll continue to keep my (however uninformed) opinion.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

True. But you say the same thing about almost anything related to the team. So I'll continue to keep my (however uninformed) opinion.

Everyone can step up and lead. You don't need an arbitrary letter on your chest. Just my opinion.

 

[SJeasy]

Its hard to speak on leadership when none of us are in the locker room.

I go by collective snippets. I often look for what appears mundane but is key. Pavs is off the scale on exemplar, paying for his own skating lessons beyond what the Sharks provide long after RW, committing to hockey by owning an amateur team and in brief blurbs having his contributions through suggestions for play acknowledged, accepted and actually working in games. He is acknowledged as relatively quiet and fiercely competitive. The latest is acknowledgement of his after practice work ethic.

I have collected similar on other players, both positive and negative. At least it is an indicator.

I also am offended by people talking about leadership who make no attempt at defining it or looking for the component parts. Some of the components in my definition are visionary, examplar, mentor and friend. It is not just about how many point a guy scores. I call that guy a leading scorer, not necessarily a leader.

 

[SJSharks42]

I trust what the players say over an HF poster, sorry

Couture especially has talked about how loose Jumbo keeps the locker room but he also gets serious with everyone when he needs to. Stuff like skating with Hertl on a day off also shows that he really cares about leading our younger guys.

 

[DG93]

I disagree. I love JT's skill, but he plays mentally lazy way too often. He doesn't lead by example except on rare occasions. Having the most skill or the highest paycheck should not make him the default Captain. The guy who leads by example is the one I want as Captain. And while Pavs isn't perfect, when it comes to leading by example the only other guy on the team who shows a similar level of commitment is Vlasic. Whereas, JT is probably 4th or 5th on my list for that category.

I agree that JT sometimes is like that. However, in that series, for example, vs LA last year, he was like a bull that just got spanked...after a performance like that, I think the C on his chest is still very well deserved. (for now...)

 

[hohosaregood]

Couture said Thornton was a great captain in his live chat from a little while ago. Dunno how you want to take that but he was pretty candid during the whole thing.

 

[SJeasy]

I trust what the players say over an HF poster, sorry

Couture especially has talked about how loose Jumbo keeps the locker room but he also gets serious with everyone when he needs to. Stuff like skating with Hertl on a day off also shows that he really cares about leading our younger guys.

I have snippets on JT as mentor, friend and extra practice. All positives. I don't think he is all that visionary. Pretty much DW and the coaches have to supply that. I do think TM is pretty good in that respect. The last solid visionary they had was Ricci.

 

[hohosaregood]

I have snippets on JT as mentor, friend and extra practice. All positives. I don't think he is all that visionary. Pretty much DW and the coaches have to supply that. I do think TM is pretty good in that respect. The last solid visionary they had was Ricci.

Those are some pretty vague intangibles that you're trying to record from an organization that barely lets out any information.

 

[Vaasa]

I trust what the players say over an HF poster, sorry

Couture especially has talked about how loose Jumbo keeps the locker room but he also gets serious with everyone when he needs to. Stuff like skating with Hertl on a day off also shows that he really cares about leading our younger guys.

I don't count either of those as "leadership". The "loose room" has been attributed to a number of guys in the past, including (I want to say) several 3rd and 4th liners. Keeping the room loose is a sign of an outgoing personality, not leadership. As an example, I can't remember Yzerman ever being cited as "keeping the room loose".

Skating with Hertl is the sign of a great team-mate, but not necessarily a great leader. To use a non-hockey comparison, Patton was a notorious SOB, but was considered a fantastic leader.

 

[SJSharks42]

I don't count either of those as "leadership". The "loose room" has been attributed to a number of guys in the past, including (I want to say) several 3rd and 4th liners. Keeping the room loose is a sign of an outgoing personality, not leadership. As an example, I can't remember Yzerman ever being cited as "keeping the room loose".

Skating with Hertl is the sign of a great team-mate, but not necessarily a great leader. To use a non-hockey comparison, Patton was a notorious SOB, but was considered a fantastic leader.

But the attitude in the has to trickle down from the leaders in the room. Like it or not, Jumbo's attitude probably does drive that and it's a good thing. As for the Yzerman thing, that wasn't his style. Doesn't mean that it's more or less effective, depends on the team.

And being a good teammate is part of being a good captain, imo. Him being the only one to skate with Hertl, when he doesn't have to, is leading by example.

 

[SJeasy]

Couture said Thornton was a great captain in his live chat from a little while ago. Dunno how you want to take that but he was pretty candid during the whole thing.

It's what players say when they aren't being directly asked. Very rarely will a player do anything but praise another player when asked directly. When they don't, it is negative for the player being interviewed as well as the subject. I set very little stock in direct quotes; I am more interested in the anecdotes which unintentionally give far more insight.

 

[Mafoofoo]

I'm with SJEasy. I think talk of trading Pavs is nuts. I'd move JT wayyy before I moved Pavs. I also hope (but don't expect) that DW told JT in these recent contract discussions that he won't be Captain next year. I've love to see Pavs with the C, Vlasic with an A, and maybe move the 2nd A around between Patty, Couture, and JT.

I disagree. Mueller should get the C, while our 2014 1rst round pick and Nieto with the A's.

 

[Bowie22]

Adam Burish for Captain.

 

[do0glas]

I don't count either of those as "leadership". The "loose room" has been attributed to a number of guys in the past, including (I want to say) several 3rd and 4th liners. Keeping the room loose is a sign of an outgoing personality, not leadership. As an example, I can't remember Yzerman ever being cited as "keeping the room loose".

Skating with Hertl is the sign of a great team-mate, but not necessarily a great leader. To use a non-hockey comparison, Patton was a notorious SOB, but was considered a fantastic leader.

What is your definition of leadership?

 

[SJeasy]

But the attitude in the has to trickle down from the leaders in the room. Like it or not, Jumbo's attitude probably does drive that and it's a good thing. As for the Yzerman thing, that wasn't his style. Doesn't mean that it's more or less effective, depends on the team.

And being a good teammate is part of being a good captain, imo. Him being the only one to skate with Hertl, when he doesn't have to, is leading by example.

That's a bad assumption on your part and shows your bias.

When I went over the winning captains and their attributes, the benchmark for winning it all was intensity (not necessarily vocal). Keeping it loose is kind of the opposite. Another commonality for the winners was being inclusive. This only went so far as I could get confirmed anecdotes.

I won't deny that keeping an even keel in the face of adversity is an advantage. Keeping loose can help that.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

What is your definition of leadership?

Apparenly George S. Patton more of an Alexander The Great or Hannibal Of Carthage fan myself

 

[Vaasa]

What is your definition of leadership?

See my post before that. But if you really want to get into a discussion of what is leadership, we better move it out of this thread. That's like to wander a long way from hockey.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Pavelski comes off as being a great leader, IMO, because he is one of the guys who has really had to work on his game significantly to even make the NHL. Boyle and Couture are somewhat similar. The trio come off a little bit as having chips on their shoulders...

I think we see that extra work ethic, desire, spark, etc., and call it leadership. I don't know if it is fair. Maybe you can say that those players are harder workers, but leadership is a different thing.

Another reason, is that one of the visual ways to demonstrate leadership, is leading by example. Pavelski/Couture/Boyle exemplify this...but there are other ways to be a leader.

Plus, there is leadership vs. mentorship. For example, I would say that there are decent examples of both Thornton and Marleau taking younger players under their wing...how much they really helped is unknown, but there appears to be some level of mentoring from the two players. On the other hand, a player like Boyle doesn't have a great history of helping develop other defensemen, while players like Blake are universally praised for that quality.

Lastly, I will say what frustrates me about both Thornton and Marleau is their tendency to quickly head to excuses. I know some of it is hockey/team-speak...but at the end of the day, considering the talent level of the team "we tried hard and got unlucky" is not something I want the players to be saying. That is something that the fans rationalize. Players should give themselves no excuses. Couture and Boyle in particular don't seem to have those kind of excuses.

 

[hohosaregood]

That's a bad assumption on your part and shows your bias.

When I went over the winning captains and their attributes, the benchmark for winning it all was intensity (not necessarily vocal). Keeping it loose is kind of the opposite. Another commonality for the winners was being inclusive. This only went so far as I could get confirmed anecdotes.

I won't deny that keeping an even keel in the face of adversity is an advantage. Keeping loose can help that.

You shouldn't focus completely on the "keeping loose" aspect. Couture did also say that Thornton can get it serious when they need to be serious.

 

[do0glas]

See my post before that. But if you really want to get into a discussion of what is leadership, we better move it out of this thread. That's like to wander a long way from hockey.

Oh I see. I guess I just don't understand how our leading scorer and generally best player in possession, face offs, etc. lacks leadership under your definition. You should be more specific. As in, do you want him to hit more? Shoot more? Forecheck more? A few missed coverages here and there or bad penalties does not a bad leader make.

Your idea of being that example seems subjective and maybe only Crosby fits that definition.

The mentally lazy bit seems strict to me. No one can be perfect. Which goes into the locker room. Is he owning those mistakes? We don't know.

 

[Led Zappa]

Oh I see. I guess I just don't understand how our leading scorer and generally best player in possession, face offs, etc. lacks leadership under your definition. You should be more specific. As in, do you want him to hit more? Shoot more? Forecheck more? A few missed coverages here and there or bad penalties does not a bad leader make.

Your idea of being that example seems subjective and maybe only Crosby fits that definition.

The mentally lazy bit seems strict to me. No one can be perfect. Which goes into the locker room. Is he owning those mistakes? We don't know.

He wants him to be younger and a Sharks draft pick

 

[hohosaregood]

I'm thinking Tierney as C, Logan as A, and Pavelski as A. Tierney's putting the Knights on his back right now.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I love Joe, but it really pisses me off how much he's coasted for the past two months.