Speculation: Sharks Roster Discussion Part 2

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Juxtaposer

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Dec 21, 2009
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do0glas

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Deboer is likely much more knowledgeable than all of us.

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Helistin

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Sometimes it's too much, but at least it cancels out the "Deboer can do absolutely no wrong" party. I mean, we went so far as to think Nieto had mental issues to support Deboer. Teams aren't afraid to publicize benching for off ice antics. The fact that both parties are extremely mum about this (Schlemko sounded genuinely confused) makes it sound like it's just a favoritism thing.

Yeah , one poster said without any proof or merit that Nieto has mental issues(libel). Now it can be used as a proof that there is there is a "Deboer can do absolutely no wrong" party? :shakehead

I would guess that the coach picks the roster that he feels has the best chance of winning hockey games. And he is done a fine job so far so atleast I don't feel the need to complain even if my golden boy isn't playing every night.
 

Helistin

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Do we know that he actually blew off practice? Seems like something he'd mention instead of acting dumbfounded.

All we(you) know for sure it seems is that DeBoer is an idiot for not playing him even when we don't know for sure why he was scratched. :laugh:
 

Limekiller

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May 16, 2010
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Playing Micheal Haley, who's definitely not a NHL player, over Donskoi, Ward and Nieto is absolutely and objectively wrong.

I would argue the opposite: that because we have the deepest organizational roster in our history, DeBoer's decisions become even more important as the optimal lineup he has a chance to ice given our resources should be good enough to win the Stanley Cup. The opportunity costs to poor lineup decisions are much higher given the alternatives. Nick Spaling was a ****ing worthless sack of **** but at least in DeBoer's defense last year, playing him in every game was somewhat justifiable due to the lack of better options. That is no longer the case.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

1) Haley has been just fine in his role. He has NOT been costing us games, and has handled his role quite well when in the lineup. He absolutely is a NHL player, but only as a 4th line grinder type. (which is exactly how he's being used, so no complaints here.) You obviously don't remember some of the previous players we employed on our 4th line if you are whinging this much about Haley. Is Nieto more talented? Absolutely. Does that mean Nieto is a better player right now for playing the role Haley is expected to play? That is far far less certain.

2) You keep bringing up Donskoi sitting as if it were some horrible travesty of justice. You conveniently ignore Donskoi himself saying he needed to sit for that game, and it absolutely helped him rediscover his game. So whinging about something the player himself said was beneficial is not only laughable, it shows you don't care about facts and are only concerned furthering your personal agenda and narrative.

3) The same thing with Ward. He was playing really poorly, so he got sat for a game. Not only does he need more time off anyway due to his age, scratching someone who has consistently played poorly is something to applaud, not spend weeks crying over. Ward got sat for poor play and rest. Boo flipping hoo.


Do I agree with everything DeBoer does? Of course not. I'd like to see Nieto get more of a chance to play too, and I find sitting Schlemko for 2 games in a row puzzling. Do we know exactly why Nieto has played so seldom? Absolutely not. Maybe he hasn't been doing things right in practice, maybe he's nursing the kind of minor but painful injury that they never tell us about. Simply put, we don't know. What I DO know is presuming that (probably in-) arguably the best coach we've ever had in the team's history is a moron is itself laughably moronic. DeBoer's success last year with a team that no one predicted to even make the playoffs has earned him significant benefit of the doubt, and a very very long leash. Frothing at the mouth and going on endless rant after endless rant that "DeBoer is a ****ing moron" because he sat Donskoi for 1 game in the middle of the season and played your designated whipping boy instead is so far beyond reasonable that "reasonable" wouldn't even be visible from where you're at if you pointed Hubble at it.
 

OrrNumber4

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Jul 25, 2002
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Any information DeBoer has that we don't have and that isn't injury-related (which doesn't appear to be relevant in Schlemko's case) should not be used to make lineup decisions. All lineup decisions should solely be made based on players' on-ice, in-game effectiveness which we are all privy to.

In all cases? Even when it comes to trades (a lineup decision, in a sense)?

Just a reminder that we have no idea why Schlemko was benched.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
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Yeah , one poster said without any proof or merit that Nieto has mental issues(libel). Now it can be used as a proof that there is there is a "Deboer can do absolutely no wrong" party? :shakehead

I would guess that the coach picks the roster that he feels has the best chance of winning hockey games. And he is done a fine job so far so atleast I don't feel the need to complain even if my golden boy isn't playing every night.

Actually, no one said that Nieto has mental issues, but thanks for continuing to escalate a little tiny part of a post I made. :rolleyes:
 

do0glas

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Jan 26, 2012
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We're trying to win games here not babysit middle schoolers. These are adult professionals. Hurting the team's chances to win just because they showed up late to work one day is asinine. At most, you set an example by sitting him for one game. This is two games and counting now that Schlemko is being scratched.



DeBoer and Schlemko both emphatically and repeatedly called this a "coach's decision" so I'm absolutely blaming DeBoer for this until any actual evidence emerges that DW is pulling the strings. Also if the goal is to get DeMelo more games there are at least two other defensemen on the team who deserve to sit more than Schlemko.

Who gives a **** about practice? It's stupid to hurt the team's chances to win hockey games just because someone blew off practice.

What are you blaming deboer for? He continues to win games. I just don't get it.

Demelo is a good d man. Hes not polak.

Could be as simple as getting a righty on the right side. Just to get more looks.
 

hohosaregood

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Do we know that he actually blew off practice? Seems like something he'd mention instead of acting dumbfounded.

I don't think so. It was just a comment made in response to blowing off practices.

I don't think this whole thing is really a case of favoritism though. There's not really anything that any of the players or Deboer or Boughner have really done to suggest that way. There may be some office politics I guess but we don't really knwow.
 

do0glas

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I don't think so. It was just a comment made in response to blowing off practices.

I don't think this whole thing is really a case of favoritism though. There's not really anything that any of the players or Deboer or Boughner have really done to suggest that way. There may be some office politics I guess but we don't really knwow.

Demelo is such a favorite he ate popcorn for 20 games.

Find it funny we can call the coach a moron and an idiot with literally no information though.

Why would schlemko say he missed practice if the coach didn't? Seems pointless to out yourself so kurz can run a feature on your poor sleeping habits.
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

1) Haley has been just fine in his role. He has NOT been costing us games, and has handled his role quite well when in the lineup. He absolutely is a NHL player, but only as a 4th line grinder type. (which is exactly how he's being used, so no complaints here.) You obviously don't remember some of the previous players we employed on our 4th line if you are whinging this much about Haley. Is Nieto more talented? Absolutely. Does that mean Nieto is a better player right now for playing the role Haley is expected to play? That is far far less certain.

Haley has been awful. Has he been better than Mike Brown and John Scott and some of the other garbage fire players we've employed over the years? Sure, but that's an incredibly low bar to clear and it's besides the point entirely because Haley is being given a roster spot over clearly, objectively superior options. Nieto is better than him, Donskoi and Ward sure as hell are better than him and at least five forwards on the Barracuda roster if not more are better than him. "The role Haley is expected to play" is completely obsolete in the modern NHL. In case you haven't been following the rest of the league over the past half-decade, the good and successful teams don't waste 4th line spots on players like Haley. Teams like the one that whooped our ass in the Stanley Cup Final last season are icing skilled fourth lines that provide value at the margins. We finally have the personnel to do just that this year and DeBoer is squandering it. Because he's a ****ing moron.

2) You keep bringing up Donskoi sitting as if it were some horrible travesty of justice. You conveniently ignore Donskoi himself saying he needed to sit for that game, and it absolutely helped him rediscover his game. So whinging about something the player himself said was beneficial is not only laughable, it shows you don't care about facts and are only concerned furthering your personal agenda and narrative.

Oh yeah, I'm sure Donskoi is going to tell the media "**** DeBoer for scratching me in favor of a useless goon." Christ, you're being naive. Why the hell would a player openly question a decision by his coach in a press conference? Donskoi is not a ****ing moron, unlike his coach.

3) The same thing with Ward. He was playing really poorly, so he got sat for a game. Not only does he need more time off anyway due to his age, scratching someone who has consistently played poorly is something to applaud, not spend weeks crying over. Ward got sat for poor play and rest. Boo flipping hoo.

Sure, Ward was playing poorly. But Ward playing poorly still gives us a better chance to win than Micheal ****ing Haley. And if these moves really are just DeBoer dispassionately sitting underperforming players in an effort to get them going, why the hell hasn't Mikkel Boedker - who has been utter trash all season - ever been healthy scratched? Could it be because DeBoer, somehow still reliving his Memorial Cup win with Kitchener, talked Wilson into giving Boedker that inexplicable contract this summer and doesn't want to look like he made a mistake, especially so soon after he made a massive mistake getting DW to acquire another one of his former junior comfort goats in Nick Spaling? It almost certainly is that, because DeBoer is a ****ing moron.
 

Muffin1

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Apr 24, 2013
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Oh yeah, I'm sure Donskoi is going to tell the media "**** DeBoer for scratching me in favor of a useless goon." Christ, you're being naive. Why the hell would a player openly question a decision by his coach in a press conference? Donskoi is not a ****ing moron, unlike his coach.

Okay then. Take Donskoi's comments out of the equation. Look at the quality of his play before his benching and compare it to after. It seems as if the benching had the desired effect. Benching Donskoi is not optimal for that one game, but Donskoi playing like his 2015-16 self far outweighs the detriment of playing Michael Haley. You can't argue with results. And our ****ing moron coach (who has two law degrees by the way) seems to have gotten them.
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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Okay then. Take Donskoi's comments out of the equation. Look at the quality of his play before his benching and compare it to after. It seems as if the benching had the desired effect. Benching Donskoi is not optimal for that one game, but Donskoi playing like his 2015-16 self far outweighs the detriment of playing Michael Haley. You can't argue with results. And our ****ing moron coach (who has two law degrees by the way) seems to have gotten them.

Donskoi was playing plenty well before the benching too. He has consistently been one of our best puck possession players all season. The only difference is he was getting unlucky before and pucks happened to go in for him a few games after, as they were bound to do at some point given the chances he was helping to create. The healthy scratch very likely had nothing to do with it. And, again, DeBoer seems to pretty selectively scratch underperforming players given that he hasn't done anything to Boedker who has contributed absolutely nothing to the team all season.
 

Pavelski2112

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Dec 15, 2011
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Donskoi was playing plenty well before the benching too. He has consistently been one of our best puck possession players all season. The only difference is he was getting unlucky before and pucks happened to go in for him a few games after, as they were bound to do at some point given the chances he was helping to create. The healthy scratch very likely had nothing to do with it. And, again, DeBoer seems to pretty selectively scratch underperforming players given that he hasn't done anything to Boedker who has contributed absolutely nothing to the team all season.

No, this is just plain not correct.
 

do0glas

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Jan 26, 2012
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Donskoi was playing plenty well before the benching too. He has consistently been one of our best puck possession players all season. The only difference is he was getting unlucky before and pucks happened to go in for him a few games after, as they were bound to do at some point given the chances he was helping to create. The healthy scratch very likely had nothing to do with it. And, again, DeBoer seems to pretty selectively scratch underperforming players given that he hasn't done anything to Boedker who has contributed absolutely nothing to the team all season.
You're wrong.

Simple as that.
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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I really don't have much of an issue with Tierney as the 4C long term. But he is definitely hurting the team at 3C. However I understand DeBoer doesn't really have much of an alternative there with Hertl out (personally I'd give O'Regan a look at 3C but I don't blame DeBoer for not doing so). Tierney being in the lineup, or even his current usage, is far down my list of complaints about DeBoer.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Oct 29, 2006
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It could be worse. We could've lost yesterday or we could be last in the division where we'd agree that we suck. lol
 

hohosaregood

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Anybody ever watch the episode of King of the Hill where Bobby joined the track team and the team got better as they became united in their disdain for how much the coaches coddled Bobby?

My point is that there are parallels to real life happening here.
 

Muffin1

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Apr 24, 2013
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I'm no expert on analytics and advanced stats. I know a lot of you guys are, but I could never get my head around it all. So I'm going to base my analysis on the things I see when I watch the game. I played hockey from the time I was 5 to 19 years old, and my Dad played D1 for Minnesota and taught me everything he knows. Those are my hockey credentials in case anyone is wondering or cares.

Chris Tierney is tentative in the defensive zone. He has excellent awareness of passing lanes and positioning, but he generally will be content to hold a player to the outside, rather than make the defensive play to acquire the puck and clear the zone. Offensively he has great vision and playmaking abilities that continue to get better. Physically, he needs to get stronger and work on his board play. Its one of the weakest parts of his game.

Joel Ward is reaching a lot. Many times this season, you can see him not back checking hard enough, or not making an attempt to play the body. Some of that I think can be blamed on being another year older and the Stanley Cup hangover, but lack of hustle is not what you want to see from a guy who is supposed to exude character and leadership.

Joonas Donskoi wasn't playing like himself. He wasn't creating space with his stick handling, he wasn't being aggressive enough in the offensive zone with the puck on his stick. Since the benching, he seems to have found his game a little bit. It seems to me he got off to a slow start this season and started getting in his own head. Benching him had the desired effect in that it served as a nice reset.

If we judge whether a player should be benched in favor of another purely on on-ice performance, then David Shlemko's benching makes no sense. He moves the puck crisply and efficiently out of the defensive zone, is responsible defensively and makes a great partner with the more rough and tumble Dillon. They compliment each other well. There seems to be more to the story then we know. Its an enigma to me. Could be anything from disciplinary, to fostering competition, to wanting to keep DeMelo in game shape. But I'm willing to trust the coach that got us further than anyone ever has, and did a masterful job coaching the Sharks through their brutal schedule last year, to pull the right strings.

Michael Haley is a competent 4th line player that provides an element that, despite what many say, I think is still very important. I can only imagine how differently things might have happened if Haley wasn't around to fight and demolish Kassian. That being said, in an ideal world Joel Ward or Joonas Donskoi should not be scratched in favor of playing Haley. Unfortunately Joel Ward has consistently not put in the effort required to compete and produce at the level we know he can. A benching is a great tool to wake a player up. Getting benched sucks.

Mikkel Boedker is just not playing aggressive enough. With his speed and puck handling ability he should be exploiting holes in the defense, probing for breakaway opportunities and generally being more of a dynamic presence. He has played within the Sharks defensive system well but not fully extended that to the offensive side of things. Plenty of times you will see him with the puck make a move gain some space, and dump it into the corner or pass back to the point. He should start using his physical traits to better use in the offensive zone. The games where people have noticed him most are the ones where he is pushing the envelope and providing the pressure, not letting the game come to him.

Sorry for the essay, I don't have stats to easily summarize the points I'm trying to make. I have to explain them with words:laugh: I tried to touch on most of the hot button issues in these forums lately. Take it as you will.
 
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