Rumor: Sharks-Jones negotiations going well

[stator]

Jones is a league-average starter. It would be pretty easy to replace him. I don't really see the point in even bothering to extend him this early to be honest.

Sharks have not be solid in the goal tending department. That's why DW gave up a 1st, and will do the extension. Probably more than I think Jones is worth. I think he was actually somewhat below average this season as NHL starters go. His upside is above-average, but I don't believe he's shown enough to be considered as an upcoming elite goalie.

I think without that streak he had in the the playoffs prior to this past season, some here would be calling for DW's head on that trade.

The problem the Sharks' have is they still don't have a proven, solid NHL backup goalie yet. If Jones goes down on LITR, they'll be in the lottery at the draft.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Yep, there is usually a reason why those cheap depth players are so affordable, and it's not because they're good

Unless you're Chicago or Pittsburgh, and I'm pretty sure they've been dabbling in forbidden magic; Doug is afraid of magic

Good to see Karlsson will be next season's whipping boy, though, until we give Haley a 3 year contract, that is

Karlsson isn't a whipping boy. He wasn't the one that overpaid himself. I like Karlsson a lot, just not at that price tag.

There are two kinds of cheap depth players: bad ones and unestablished ones. I don't want the former, I was the latter. Like Karlsson was before he got this contract. I want Carpenter and Sorensen. And then if Carpenter and Sorensen got too expensive in a few years, it would be prudent to move on to the next Carpenter and Sorensen. There is a lot of turnover among fourth liners for a good reason.

 

[hohosaregood]

Karlsson isn't a whipping boy. He wasn't the one that overpaid himself. I like Karlsson a lot, just not at that price tag.

he's gonna be the whipping boy next year.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Karlsson isn't a whipping boy. He wasn't the one that overpaid himself. I like Karlsson a lot, just not at that price tag.

What would you consider a good AAV for Melker? I am baffled that people think 2M is too much for a player who has been good for 20+ points per year irrespective of where he has been asked to play on and is really good defensively and on the PK.

 

[Juxtaposer]

What would you consider a good AAV for Melker? I am baffled that people think 2M is too much for a player who has been good for 20+ points per year irrespective of where he has been asked to play on and is really good defensively and on the PK.

I wouldn't have re-signed Karlsson. I'm not saying he isn't worth $2M on the market. I'm saying that the market severely overvalues depth players and undervalues star players. Ward made half of what Thornton made last year. Would you rather Thornton or two Wards? Burns or two Martins? Karlsson and Boedker or Couture? Every single depth player who gets a new contract after being established is overpaid.

And some of you are acting like I just want to sign random players for our fourth line. Here's a tip: not all unestablished depth players are equal! Carpenter is good. Goodrow is bad. Both would cost the same. Choose the good one. That simple. Sam Gagner signed for dirt cheap and put up 50 points. That was very smart by CBJ. Re-signing Gagner now would be incredibly stupid, now that he's "established".

I strongly believe that Carpenter can score 20 points, play on any line, and PK. And he would do it for 40% of the cost of Karlsson.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I wouldn't have re-signed Karlsson. I'm not saying he isn't worth $2M on the market. I'm saying that the market severely overvalues depth players and undervalues star players. Ward made half of what Thornton made last year. Would you rather Thornton or two Wards? Burns or two Martins? Karlsson and Boedker or Couture? Every single depth player who gets a new contract after being established is overpaid.

And some of you are acting like I just want to sign random players for our fourth line. Here's a tip: not all unestablished depth players are equal! Carpenter is good. Goodrow is bad. Both would cost the same. Choose the good one. That simple. Sam Gagner signed for dirt cheap and put up 50 points. That was very smart by CBJ. Re-signing Gagner now would be incredibly stupid, now that he's "established".

I strongly believe that Carpenter can score 20 points, play on any line, and PK. And he would do it for 40% of the cost of Karlsson.

Those are two big assumptions that I doubt any GM would bet on. Karlsson has shown what he can do and is an established NHL'er. Carpenter has 11 games in the NHL. I actually have high hopes in him becoming our 4C but we are far from that point.

Also, I have no doubt in my mind that Karlsson could always be traded if Carpenter clicks and you just want to create an open spot for him. Just because we have signed Karlsson does not mean the door is shut for Carpenter.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Those are two big assumptions that I doubt any GM would bet on. Karlsson has shown what he can do and is an established NHL'er. Carpenter has 11 games in the NHL. I actually have high hopes in him becoming our 4C but we are far from that point.

Also, I have no doubt in my mind that Karlsson could always be traded if Carpenter clicks and you just want to create an open spot for him. Just because we have signed Karlsson does not mean the door is shut for Carpenter.

Carpenter destroyed the AHL playoffs and had 4 points in 11 NHL games while playing good defense and having great possession results. Is he a guarantee? No. Is he a very smart bet? Yes, and that's my point.

But this isn't about Carpenter. It's about the inefficiency of keeping a single fourth line player too long. Home-grown fourth line players are the worst because the org feels like they need to reward them by overpaying them to retain them. Chris Neil is the perfect example.

The door is shut on Carpenter because the team won't make room for him. The only chance we have of keeping him is if we lose Tierney in the expansion draft and therefore can promise Carpenter a full-time 4C spot, but then we lost Tierney for free so it's the same issue.

On Carpenter specifically: anyone who watched him play in the AHL extensively would agree with me. If you put Karlsson in the AHL right now, I guarantee Carpenter would score at a higher rate. And it's not like his play style won't translate to the NHL.

 

[Lebanezer]

Carpenter destroyed the AHL playoffs and had 4 points in 11 NHL games while playing good defense and having great possession results. Is he a guarantee? No. Is he a very smart bet? Yes, and that's my point.

But this isn't about Carpenter. It's about the inefficiency of keeping a single fourth line player too long. Home-grown fourth line players are the worst because the org feels like they need to reward them by overpaying them to retain them. Chris Neil is the perfect example.

The door is shut on Carpenter because the team won't make room for him. The only chance we have of keeping him is if we lose Tierney in the expansion draft and therefore can promise Carpenter a full-time 4C spot, but then we lost Tierney for free so it's the same issue.

On Carpenter specifically: anyone who watched him play in the AHL extensively would agree with me. If you put Karlsson in the AHL right now, I guarantee Carpenter would score at a higher rate. And it's not like his play style won't translate to the NHL.

I don't like how I am becoming exceedingly displeased with the organizational decisions (Carpenter, Mueller, Heed, Tierney, Haley etc. not necessarily the signing of the player, but the usage or treatment withing in the org.) A lot of them are downright confusing. I don't know if DW's philosophy is getting stale, or they just need to retool the scouting department, but it's very concerning.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I don't like how I am becoming exceedingly displeased with the organizational decisions (Carpenter, Mueller, Heed, Tierney, Haley etc. not necessarily the signing of the player, but the usage or treatment withing in the org.) A lot of them are downright confusing. I don't know if DW's philosophy is getting stale, or they just need to retool the scouting department, but it's very concerning.

I don't know if it's DW's philosophy or just the NHL's philosophy as a whole. DW isn't the only one signing fourth liners to bad contracts: look at the Leafs and Matt Martin. DW isn't the only one refusing to play European Free Agent signings over established vets: look at Chicago and Michal Kempny. DW isn't the only one who holds on to bad first round picks too long: look at the Rangers and Dylan McIlrath. The NHL in general just has several archaic unspoken guidelines and I think the first team willing to deviate from them will be a lot better for it.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Agree with everything Juxtaposer has said. It's not that Karlsson isn't worth his new contract - he probably is, in a vacuum. But you have to consider it in the context of our current organizational depth where players like Carpenter, Sorensen, Meier, Labanc, Goodrow, etc. can step in at less than half Karlsson's cost and replace his contributions entirely if not improve upon him. We need every last cap dollar if they're trying to win the Cup. This would have been an easy way to cut salary without affecting team performance.

 

[Lebanezer]

I don't know if it's DW's philosophy or just the NHL's philosophy as a whole. DW isn't the only one signing fourth liners to bad contracts: look at the Leafs and Matt Martin. DW isn't the only one refusing to play European Free Agent signings over established vets: look at Chicago and Michal Kempny. DW isn't the only one who holds on to bad first round picks too long: look at the Rangers and Dylan McIlrath. The NHL in general just has several archaic unspoken guidelines and I think the first team willing to deviate from them will be a lot better for it.

That's certainly part of it, the NHL teams use antiquated traditions or whatever you want to call it to do a lot of silly stuff. There are just some things I don't agree with at all, some of it's coaching, and some of it is scouting/DW. For example, Mueller getting called up and playing more games than Heed or Ryan. Carpenter doing pretty much everything right and still getting sent down. The drafting and subsequent treatment and trade of Goldobin. Giving Alex Schoenborn and Jon Martin NHL contracts. Part of this is my fault for paying closer attention to everything the organization does. My biggest personal pet peeve is drafting players like Mark Shoemaker, Gage Ausmus, Adam Parsells and Cliff Watson over and over and over again. Obviously none of this is that big a deal, no team is run perfectly, but I'd like to see a speedier evolution towards where the game is headed now.

 

[Juxtaposer]

That's certainly part of it, the NHL teams use antiquated traditions or whatever you want to call it to do a lot of silly stuff. There are just some things I don't agree with at all, some of it's coaching, and some of it is scouting/DW. For example, Mueller getting called up and playing more games than Heed or Ryan. Carpenter doing pretty much everything right and still getting sent down. The drafting and subsequent treatment and trade of Goldobin. Giving Alex Schoenborn and Jon Martin NHL contracts. Part of this is my fault for paying closer attention to everything the organization does. My biggest personal pet peeve is drafting players like Mark Shoemaker, Gage Ausmus, Adam Parsells and Cliff Watson over and over and over again. Obviously none of this is that big a deal, no team is run perfectly, but I'd like to see a speedier evolution towards where the game is headed now.

Absolutely, you're totally right. More Arvidssons and Guentzels, less Cliff Watsons. Joni Ikonen would be a good start this draft.

 

[hohosaregood]

That's certainly part of it, the NHL teams use antiquated traditions or whatever you want to call it to do a lot of silly stuff. There are just some things I don't agree with at all, some of it's coaching, and some of it is scouting/DW. For example, Mueller getting called up and playing more games than Heed or Ryan. Carpenter doing pretty much everything right and still getting sent down. The drafting and subsequent treatment and trade of Goldobin. Giving Alex Schoenborn and Jon Martin NHL contracts. Part of this is my fault for paying closer attention to everything the organization does. My biggest personal pet peeve is drafting players like Mark Shoemaker, Gage Ausmus, Adam Parsells and Cliff Watson over and over and over again. Obviously none of this is that big a deal, no team is run perfectly, but I'd like to see a speedier evolution towards where the game is headed now.

I think drafting Schoenborn was pretty crazy in the first place.

 

[Lebanezer]

Absolutely, you're totally right. More Arvidssons and Guentzels, less Cliff Watsons. Joni Ikonen would be a good start this draft.

Where is Ikonen projected to go? He's pretty high, 17th, on Central scouting's European rankings.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Where is Ikonen projected to go? He's pretty high, 17th, on Central scouting's European rankings.

Probably projects him into the late 2nd-early 3rd.

Assuming nobody good falls (Suzuki, Valimaki, Tippett, Liljegren, etc.) and DW/Burke refuse to take Yamamoto or Brannstrom, I think trading down several times like Toronto did in 2015 would be a good plan. Ending up with Anderson-Dolan, Ikonen, and Vaakanainen or a goalie would be awesome, for example.

 

[Lebanezer]

Probably projects him into the late 2nd-early 3rd.

Assuming nobody good falls (Suzuki, Valimaki, Tippett, Liljegren, etc.) and DW/Burke refuse to take Yamamoto or Brannstrom, I think trading down several times like Toronto did in 2015 would be a good plan. Ending up with Anderson-Dolan, Ikonen, and Vaakanainen or a goalie would be awesome, for example.

Sounds good to me, but I am incredibly nervous about the next 3 and a half weeks. Hopefully many good things happen.

 

[Hold the Pickles]

Am I the only one that thinks Jones is a bit weak short side high? The five hole goes unsaid, but I'd like him to work on short side high as well. Short side goals just get under my skin so maybe I'm biased here.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Sounds good to me, but I am incredibly nervous about the next 3 and a half weeks. Hopefully many good things happen.

It'll be an interesting few weeks, that's for sure. Hopefully.

Am I the only one that thinks Jones is a bit weak short side high? The five hole goes unsaid, but I'd like him to work on short side high as well. Short side goals just get under my skin so maybe I'm biased here.

You're def not the only one.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Agree with everything Juxtaposer has said. It's not that Karlsson isn't worth his new contract - he probably is, in a vacuum. But you have to consider it in the context of our current organizational depth where players like Carpenter, Sorensen, Meier, Labanc, Goodrow, etc. can step in at less than half Karlsson's cost and replace his contributions entirely if not improve upon him. We need every last cap dollar if they're trying to win the Cup. This would have been an easy way to cut salary without affecting team performance.

I think there's a little more flexibility with the cap than you're going to give them credit for. It looks like it will go up. They will probably drop some cap dollars via the expansion draft. It wouldn't surprise me if they move on from one or both of Ward and Boedker. They will gain some flexibility with whatever they end up doing with Marleau and Thornton. With someone like Karlsson who is slightly more than a normal 4th liner although still replaceable, the best option is to sign him when he's an RFA. Trades are still an option and likely easier to include someone like him when needed. He's not going to stop the other kids from getting opportunities just like he didn't stop them from getting opportunities this season. I much prefer trading him at some point even for just a 7th than just letting him walk.

Either way, it's still too early to really determine how this contract will impact the team going forward. I don't think it'll be that much and I think we have to let the other pieces fall into place before making a real determination on Karlsson's deal.

 

[FunkyPhin]

Goldobin was for me the most inexcusable roster move made by this organization. He was a player that seemed to buck the trend of roster choices made by this team. He was skilled fast and looked to have real upside. He was given no chance, and then subsequently traded. I hope he becomes a star, just to stick it to this org for that mistake.

 

[Lebanezer]

Goldobin was for me the most inexcusable roster move made by this organization. He was a player that seemed to buck the trend of roster choices made by this team. He was skilled fast and looked to have real upside. He was given no chance, and then subsequently traded. I hope he becomes a star, just to stick it to this org for that mistake.

I agree with all this, and while I didn't want to see Goldobin traded, if you're going to trade a player with his abilities, you do not do it for a third liner. Goldobin should have been used as part of a package to acquire a big time forward like Duchene or Tavares or whoever. Trading him for Hansen was the fetid moldy cherry on top of a ********* sundae.

 

[AgentCooper]

I agree with all this, and while I didn't want to see Goldobin traded, if you're going to trade a player with his abilities, you do not do it for a third liner. Goldobin should have been used as part of a package to acquire a big time forward like Duchene or Tavares or whoever. Trading him for Hansen was the fetid moldy cherry on top of a ********* sundae.

This is what I keep coming back to. There seem to be a lot of really awesome young players available this summer (Duchene, Tavares, Trouba, Drouin), and it would be really nice to have Goldobin as a trade chip right now.

 

[Jaleel619]

Jones is a shut out guy. Sharks just play like idiots the last 10 minutes of every game and blow it. So he never gets in a rhythm. Its probably resentment from Niemi days where the sharks would play amazing defensively and he couldnt hold down the shut out.

An average starter is pretty good in this league anyways. Jones tries to steal the show everytime, i dont know how anybody can say thats an average way of playing. He competes on Cary Prices level and is better than Jonathon Quick. How is that average? That makes me pretty mad, sharks fans are so ungrateful.


I think Doug will give him a modest length. The thing about Jones this season was his 2nd season playing as starter for a team, bottom line, he makes the saves to win the game. And so the oilers exposed his 5 hole, im sure hes going to remember that. Its just sports anyways but damn. I havent won anything just as long as u and im still happy positive about our team and its players. Calling them average n****.. give ita break

 

[DG93]

Jones is a shut out guy. Sharks just play like idiots the last 10 minutes of every game and blow it. So he never gets in a rhythm. Its probably resentment from Niemi days where the sharks would play amazing defensively and he couldnt hold down the shut out.

An average starter is pretty good in this league anyways. Jones tries to steal the show everytime, i dont know how anybody can say thats an average way of playing. He competes on Cary Prices level and is better than Jonathon Quick. How is that average? That makes me pretty mad, sharks fans are so ungrateful.

Yeah, not sure how you got the first part. Also, Jonathon Quick is below average during the regular season too.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

Good to hear. He's young and has proven himself the last few seasons. I would like to see his games played trimmed down a little, but he is our goalie of the future.