Player Discussion Shane Pinto (C) - PART 2

frightenedinmatenum2

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Sep 30, 2023
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Established third line center cost 4.5-5.5 million in UFA.

Pinto will cost 3 or so million on a 2-3 year bridge.

If he signs a 2-year bridge deal at 3M per and establishes himself as a 20/60 2-way center who plays 18-19 minutes a game, he will ask for 7M-8M on a long-term bridge because that's the salary structure we established, and his fourth contract will come when he has arbitration and is much closer to unrestricted-free agency.

If he will sign 6-8 years at 6M or under, you gotta do it.

If they sign him to the typical Sens' contract that does not have signing bonuses and is not front-loaded, they would have lots of flexibility to get out of the contract if it doesn't work out.

Look at Josh Norris. While I don't in a million years think they will buyout Norris, if they decide this offseason that he is not part of the solution, and there are no takers in a trade, they could buy him out and they would only owe him 12 million dollars. Even more absurd, because the contract was backloaded, they get a cap credit, the result would be that Norris basically doesn't have a cap hit for the first four years of his buyout (negative 112k cap hit in year 1-3, 647k cap hit in year 4).

Basically, these contracts are so easy to get out of, that 6 more years at 8M would only cost the Senators about 1.5M in dead cap starting 4 seasons from this offseason when the cap ceiling should be over 100M. See, Colin White as another example.

There is also a bias where people tend to only look at the long-term post ELC contracts that don't really work out as well, but they also don't account for contracts that become an insane value. Even with the Senators playing badly, there is no way Tkachuk, Stutzle, or Sanderson would be cheaper if they were bridged. That also doesn't account for the higher likelihood that they leave after a bridge (See Matthew Tkachuk, who was open to a long-term deal after his ELC in Calgary, they went for a bridge, and then he left after).
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,612
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What a difference Pinto makes to this team, he's defintely part of the core. He's big, he's tough, he's great at faceoffs, he's good in front of the net & he can carry the puck & make plays, he can add more offence & he brings a little more jam to this lineup. .
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Oct 16, 2006
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What a difference Pinto makes to this team, he's defintely part of the core. He's big, he's tough, he's great at faceoffs, he's good in front of the net & he can carry the puck & make plays, he can add more offence & he brings a little more jam to this lineup. .
Agreed. He is a bit of a presence out there even if technically the production may have been filled in his absence. I really like how Greig has sort of shown out in the interim and is now just another piece we can fit in.

Norris looked good today. Stutzle turning it around. Pinto back. Greig/Chartier/Kastelic to rotate otherwise. Center position is looking better with Pinto back for sure.
 
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PlayOn

Registered User
Jun 22, 2010
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What a difference Pinto makes to this team, he's defintely part of the core. He's big, he's tough, he's great at faceoffs, he's good in front of the net & he can carry the puck & make plays, he can add more offence & he brings a little more jam to this lineup. .
Agreed. I think he will end up being our match-up centre when he’s more refined and we’re competing.
 

Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,442
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What a difference Pinto makes to this team, he's defintely part of the core. He's big, he's tough, he's great at faceoffs, he's good in front of the net & he can carry the puck & make plays, he can add more offence & he brings a little more jam to this lineup. .
plus
wins puck battles
can shoot the pill
positional awareness
strong on the puck
200 foot player
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,869
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Montreal, Canada
This guy gambled and won. He's coming back right when the they are playing the best TEAM GAME they have in years... He's going to cash in or he'll get a bridge?

Curious to see how Staios handles this
 

frightenedinmatenum2

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Sep 30, 2023
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No one is going to take Norris without us retaining or taking back a different questionable player signed to term and big money.

Even with the cap going up, cap space is still very valuable. If you're a GM who has 8M of cap space and the Senators approach you and offer you Norris for future considerations, would you take it? He is a very risky player to have signed to this contract because of his injury history and how the injuries are clearly affecting his play.

If he is healthy this offseason and there is no real trade market for him, they have to take a very serious look at whether he is going to be a core member of this team, because they can basically get out of the contract for pennies on the dollar cap wise with a buyout. They don't have that opportunity next offseason because he will be 26 and subject to the regular buyout formula.

The entire issue isn't whether he is good or not, it's whether his injuries are going to be a bump in the road that he can get over, or whether they are going to be a consistent issue for the next decade that will derail his career.

I would keep him, but I don't have access to his medical records. I am also not a doctor, or even a trainer.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,381
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Victoria
We should he’s overpaid and always hurt
I disagree, his play is getting better and he looks to be returning to form.

Is he “always hurt”, or did he suffer a series of shoulder injuries and then miss a season getting it surgically repaired?

Anyways, agree to disagree here, but I don’t think they are, nor should be, considering trading him.
 

PlayOn

Registered User
Jun 22, 2010
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No one is going to take Norris without us retaining or taking back a different questionable player signed to term and big money.

Even with the cap going up, cap space is still very valuable. If you're a GM who has 8M of cap space and the Senators approach you and offer you Norris for future considerations, would you take it? He is a very risky player to have signed to this contract because of his injury history and how the injuries are clearly affecting his play.

If he is healthy this offseason and there is no real trade market for him, they have to take a very serious look at whether he is going to be a core member of this team, because they can basically get out of the contract for pennies on the dollar cap wise with a buyout. They don't have that opportunity next offseason because he will be 26 and subject to the regular buyout formula.

The entire issue isn't whether he is good or not, it's whether his injuries are going to be a bump in the road that he can get over, or whether they are going to be a consistent issue for the next decade that will derail his career.

I would keep him, but I don't have access to his medical records. I am also not a doctor, or even a trainer.
I’m not sure that the way to build a best-in-class organization is to kick it off with a buyout on a player that hasn’t played poorly enough to justify it because you fear injuries might derail his career. There’s a risk factor for sure, but a lot of players have gone through worse and gone on to have really successful careers. These moves don’t exist in a vacuum either, I don’t think it would be well-received by the core - beyond the typical frustrations of a friend getting traded.
 

swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.PIERRE★
Jul 26, 2005
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Even more absurd, because the contract was backloaded, they get a cap credit, the result would be that Norris basically doesn't have a cap hit for the first four years of his buyout (negative 112k cap hit in year 1-3, 647k cap hit in year 4).

Basically, these contracts are so easy to get out of, that 6 more years at 8M would only cost the Senators about 1.5M in dead cap starting 4 seasons from this offseason when the cap ceiling should be over 100M. See, Colin White as another example.
The work of a genius.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
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Norris is the 28th highest paid center in the league. His play isn't fully back to 100% yet imo but he missed an entire year so it's not surprising if he's a little shy.

His contract won't be a huge problem to move if they choose that route
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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Norris is the 28th highest paid center in the league. His play isn't fully back to 100% yet imo but he missed an entire year so it's not surprising if he's a little shy.

His contract won't be a huge problem to move if they choose that route
He's on pace for about 50 pts and 30 goals coming off a year where he missed all but 8 games, and was still rehabbing through training camp missing the first couple games of the year. All the while, the team write large has really struggled on the PP, where a player like him would typically thrive.

If this is what you get out of him in what really seems like the worst of circumstances, then I don't think his contact is ever really going to be a problem, health permitting.

I really don't get it sometimes, we finally have excellent center depth and people are looking to ship it out. If its me, I'm holding on to all 4 of Pinto, Norris, Greig and Stü as long as I can, Stü and Greig are both comfortable on the wing if we need to, I could see Norris working well there too. We have two guys that are excellent at the dot and should be able to kill penalties in Pinto and Norris, along with Giroux and Tkachuk, not to mention Kastelic on the 4th line, which should mean we'll start plays with the puck more often than not.

I feel like people are manufacturing a problem out of what is a strength.
 

frightenedinmatenum2

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Sep 30, 2023
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He is clearly an 8M player or close to it. He isn't having a bad season in the context of coming back from missing an entire season.

It comes down to whether injuries will be a big issue long term. This wasn't his first shoulder injury.

The center depth is the reason he could be expendable in a worst case scenario. The context also has to be considered that it isn't get rid of Norris, we don't need him. It's, is his shoulder bad enough to make his cap hit a liability that should be dumped.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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He is clearly an 8M player or close to it. He isn't having a bad season in the context of coming back from missing an entire season.

It comes down to whether injuries will be a big issue long term. This wasn't his first shoulder injury.

The center depth is the reason he could be expendable in a worst case scenario. The context also has to be considered that it isn't get rid of Norris, we don't need him. It's, is his shoulder bad enough to make his cap hit a liability that should be dumped.
I mean, it's a chat board, so speculation is to be expected, but unless we get access to his medical records and some degree of expertise on diagnosing long term shoulder issues, it seems a bit rushed.

The reality is that teams get full access to players med records before finalizing a trade, anything we (the team) know, so does the team we try to unload him to. If it is legitimately a concern based on his medical history, it's already too late. Beyond that, if it's so bad as to ruin his career, there's LTIR and insurance. So the only situation in which we're at risk is one where the injury is bad enough to nerf him as a player, but not bad enough to result in LTIR/insurance, and it has to happen in the next six seasons.
 

Sting

Registered User
Feb 8, 2004
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Norris is the 28th highest paid center in the league. His play isn't fully back to 100% yet imo but he missed an entire year so it's not surprising if he's a little shy.

His contract won't be a huge problem to move if they choose that route
Honest question, what team trades for Norris? 8 mill in cap space is huge nowadays. You have to think no contender is going to take that risk considering almost every contender is capped out to the max and/or very conservative with their money.

So then you look at rebuilding teams and who sees Josh Norris as a cornerstone player that they're going to pay 1C money to? Arizona? San Jose? I doubt either bite and if its the latter, they wouldn't have any interest in giving up futures considering they are just starting a rebuild.

All that to say - I think the contract will be an anchor. I know people want to defend him because he's youngish and the injury, but there were questions BEFORE the contact was dished out. He isn't going to become a completely different player.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
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He is clearly an 8M player or close to it. He isn't having a bad season in the context of coming back from missing an entire season.

It comes down to whether injuries will be a big issue long term. This wasn't his first shoulder injury.

The center depth is the reason he could be expendable in a worst case scenario. The context also has to be considered that it isn't get rid of Norris, we don't need him. It's, is his shoulder bad enough to make his cap hit a liability that should be dumped.

Whoa.....no, Pinto isn't at the 8 mil a year level yet. We need to dial back here. At least see how he does in the next 40 games.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,966
31,170
Whoa.....no, Pinto isn't at the 8 mil a year level yet. We need to dial back here. At least see how he does in the next 40 games.
He was referring to Norris as the emergence of Pinto and Norris' injury history may make Norris a potential trade option.

I will take the Norris talk to the Norris thread, even know the two are intertwined. My bad for getting this off topic.
Not a bad idea, I'm guilty myself...
 

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