Shanahan's biggest gaffe shows he's out of touch: revisiting the "Discounts" quote

[Racer88]

The Islanders have been better since Tavares left and the Leafs have been worse. as far as I know Tavares hasn’t won any personal awards in the NHL, no cup, but Dubas seem fit to pay him 11 million

 

[Antropovsky]

In terms of cap hits:

- JT signed for less here than what SJ and NYI offered - so no overpayment there.
- Matthews had all the leverage as he was going to get big RFA offers from Arizona and other American teams. Still maybe a slight overpayment given what Eichel and McDavid got.
- Marner signed at the same time as Rantanen, for $1.5 more. Clear overpayment.
- Willy signed a fair deal but Dubas set a bad precedent for making him whole with the bonus structure - ensuring that Willy didn't lose any money for sitting out. That was weak.

Overall, maybe $3 mil overpayment for the core 4, in my opinion.

Rantanen signed immediately after Marner (I remember reading that he was waiting to see what Marner would get) .. im guessing Sakic saw Marners contract and immediately signed Rantanens asking price. Betting Marner drove the price of Rantanen up... so I wouldn't use Rantanen as a comparable for Marner.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Yup 47 goal 88 point 28 year old center for free (but cap space) is the wrong move.

And what difference has he made? He WAS 28, that's gone, that's history. 3 years already wasted. Amazing signing!

 

[Racer88]

In terms of cap hits:

- JT signed for less here than what SJ and NYI offered - so no overpayment there.
- Matthews had all the leverage as he was going to get big RFA offers from Arizona and other American teams. Still maybe a slight overpayment given what Eichel and McDavid got.
- Marner signed at the same time as Rantanen, for $1.5 more. Clear overpayment.
- Willy signed a fair deal but Dubas set a bad precedent for making him whole with the bonus structure - ensuring that Willy didn't lose any money for sitting out. That was weak.

Overall, maybe $3 mil overpayment for the core 4, in my opinion.

Using your numbers it looks like an overpayment of 3-4 even though you cannot judge a persons value just by what someone else might have paid him but I will give you that however I think a valid point is that we did not need Tavares. We already had 3 very good forwards so if you look at it from a forward unit the over payment is closer to 13-14- million

 

[Antropovsky]

And what difference has he made? He WAS 28, that's gone, that's history. 3 years already wasted.

Wasted? He had 46 goals and 88 points his first year and was rated 12 in scoring chance generating plays. Centered are more valuable than wingers.

 

[Racer88]

There is no world where Tavares is worth 11 million other then Dubbie world

 

[Racer88]

Wasted? He had 46 goals and 88 points his first year and was rated 12 in scoring chance generating plays. Centered are more valuable than wingers.

What did those 88 points get him or us……no awards for him and no playoff rounds for the team

 

[Suntouchable13]

Wasted? He had 46 goals and 88 points his first year and was rated 12 in scoring chance generating plays. Centered are more valuable than wingers.

I am talking about playoff success. I couldn't care less about his regular season points. He was brought in to bring us over the hump and beat Boston.

 

[Antropovsky]

There is no world where Tavares is worth 11 million other then Dubbie world

What about Wilson's... San Jose reportedly was willing to offer something like 14 million oer.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

He might just be someone else’s franchise guy in 3 years a la JT.

Its a done deal.

Matthews in his farewell address (goes to Arizona), mentions it's like JT going home to Toronto.
He also mentions his dead uncle that inspired him to play hockey and taking him to Yotes games.
"Family is important to me".

 

[ToneDog]

And what difference has he made? He WAS 28, that's gone, that's history. 3 years already wasted. Amazing signing!

JT said he wanted to keep everybody. Not his fault dubas screwed the team by overpaying 3 RFAs. How many good players have been casualties of the cap?

 

[Racer88]

What about Wilson's... San Jose reportedly was willing to offer something like 14 million oer.

It doesn’t matter what someone is willing to offer. GM’s over pay all the time.
What matters is what player and position you need at the time and how that player/position can help you win and that determines their value.
At the time he was absolutely the wrong player they needed but Dubas want to make a big splash to launch his GM career and it will ultimately be his downfall

 

[ToneDog]

It doesn’t matter what someone is willing to offer. GM’s over pay all the time.
What matters is what player and position you need at the time and how that player/position can help you win and that determines their value.
At the time he was absolutely the wrong player they needed but Dubas want to make a big splash to launch his GM career and it will ultimately be his downfall

Signing JT made them the strongest team down the middle. Subsequent overpayments and his flawed vision are his downfall.

 

[Racer88]

I am talking about playoff success. I couldn't care less about his regular season points. He was brought in to bring us over the hump and beat Boston.

And he failed in that

 

[Kurtz]

Using your numbers it looks like an overpayment of 3-4 even though you cannot judge a persons value just by what someone else might have paid him but I will give you that however I think a valid point is that we did not need Tavares. We already had 3 very good forwards so if you look at it from a forward unit the over payment is closer to 13-14- million

Mitch by $1.5, Willy 500k, AM 500k-1mil I think. $3m net. Definitely could have used that $3m right about now - no question.

I'll be fair with JT - whole board was celebrating the signing so I can't use hindsight to fault Dubas on it. But there was contemporaneous consensus on rfas being overpaid, so that blame is well earned.

 

[Racer88]

Signing JT made them the strongest team down the middle. Subsequent overpayments and his flawed vision are his downfall.

I don’t have a real knock against JT. I just do not think they needed him.
Even if Marner and Matthews are overpaid by say 2 million each that’s still almost 40 million tied up in 4 forwards while filling the rest with scrubs.
Now we add in the fact that Marner hasn’t been able to contribute anything in the playoffs us a recipe for disaster.
That all said I would be perfectly happy getting rid of Marner and running with Matthews, Will and Tavares

 

[Racer88]

Mitch by $1.5, Willy 500k, AM 500k-1mil I think. $3m net. Definitely could have used that $3m right about now - no question.

I'll be fair with JT - whole board was celebrating the signing so I can't use hindsight to fault Dubas on it. But there was contemporaneous consensus on rfas being overpaid, so that blame is well earned.

I will admit I thought it was a good move but in my wildest dream I never thought we would have 3-11 million players.

 

[ToneDog]

I will admit I thought it was a good move but in my wildest dream I never thought we would have 3-11 million players.

Idiot should have signed 34 for 8 years and bridged marner. Only way you can keep 34 and give yourself some cap space.

Not even two of the best capologists could prevent dubas from shooting himself in the foot.

 

[Reydin]

This thread Wow just Wow. I'm giving this core 2 more years before I turn into you guys. Hopefully it doesn't happen. We are into our 5th year of rebuild with the goal of being competitive for the cup every year going forward after 5 years, I believe we are in that position but it is scary how Ottawa and Florida has improve, Montreal always have Price. Hopefully Boston starts trending down. I'm really ticked off we lost to Price but right now for me this is fun.

 

[hotpaws]

Rantanen signed immediately after Marner (I remember reading that he was waiting to see what Marner would get) .. im guessing Sakic saw Marners contract and immediately signed Rantanens asking price. Betting Marner drove the price of Rantanen up... so I wouldn't use Rantanen as a comparable for Marner.

yup word was Ranta among others were waiting for Dubas to get bent over and re set the market again

as per Cap Friendly , Marner signed Sept 13 , Ranta however didn't sign immediately but 2 weeks later on the 28th , so basically it looked like he was holding out for Mitch money but Sakic told him he's not a weak bitch like Dubas and lower his ask which he eventually did

 

[HamiltonNHL]

- JT signed for less here than what SJ and NYI offered - so no overpayment there.

Signing players you dont need is 100% overpayment.

Tavares + Marner => Marner overpay.

 

[The Apologist]

Taveras was the wrong signing at the time period.

A) spell his name right dude, misspelling it makes it hard to take anything else you say seriously.

B) there is no wrong time to sign a Tavares level player. If they are willing to come you make that move.

Having Tavares and Matthews down the middle is a huge blessing and the least of our worries.
Our big problem is the 11m on the wing. You can't have 22m at center and have an 11m winger too. Of the three, Mitch is easily, unquestionably the one I dangle.

Signing players you dont need is 100% overpayment.

Tavares + Marner => Marner overpay.

How does one not need a Tavares?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Having Tavares and Matthews down the middle is a huge blessing and the least of our worries.
Our big problem is the 11m on the wing.

Tavares scored alot inflating Marner's points and that led to Marner's overpay.

We had Matthews, Marner and Nylander.

WE NEEDED D.

and a goalie.

 

[HolyCrap]

Signing Tavares was fine.
Making Matthews the franchise guy would have been fine if it was for 8 years.He might just be someone else’s franchise guy in 3 years a la JT.

You don’t sign 2 wingers for almost 20 million after that.
2 5/6 million wingers are fine.

Nylander 6.9 and a 6 mil guy who can drive the net, get dirty and score some goals.

And the money for an entire 3rd line that can go the same.

Amen.

 

[The Apologist]

Tavares scored alot inflating Marner's points and that led to Marner's overpay.

We had Matthews, Marner and Nylander.

If you truly believe Marner is overpaid because of Tavares, isn't that more reason signing JT was a good thing? Maybe we should have traded Matthews. After all, if not for him there's no way Nylander gets the contract he did right? Imagine not wanting a guy because he makes others better.

As for the second part, yes, we had AM, Mitch and Willie. So what? They were all what,two years in? And two of the three were soft as tissue paper wingers. You never build a team by turning down a franchise center. You certainly don't because you have two Hugh scoring wingers.

WE NEEDED D.

and a goalie.

Which franchise D and goalie did we miss out on because of JT?