Blue Jays Discussion: September Call-ups & Meaningful Baseball

[theaub]

If everyone you trade busts, no one will trade with you anymore

 

[zeke]

If you keep trading for busts, you'll be out of a job.

 

[theaub]

Yes, which makes the next GM to come in rather wary to trade with the guy that historically puts other GM's out of jobs.

I'm not saying you should dump a Syndergaard on teams every other year to make things look passable, but if everyone you trade sucks either you are a bonafide genius who has an unprecedented eye for failed development curves, or you can't draft/develop players in the first place.

 

[zeke]

You seem to be arguing that we'd be better off having a GM that trades away good players and loses most trades.

 

[theaub]

You seem to be arguing that we'd be better off having a GM that trades away good players and loses most trades.

There is nothing wrong with trading good players for good players.

 

[no13matssundin]

I know i'm gonna get flack for this, but who cares: I thought for a little bit that I could have been wrong on Atkins/Shapiro and that the moves with Benoit/Grilli were wins. That they were better than I had thought.

NOPE.

What the Cleveland fans who grieved for us when we brought in Shapiro thought is true. They dunno what they're doing. Benoit/Grilli were total horseshoes. Upton is Terrrr--i-bbble. They couldn't do anything at the deadline when we needed another arm. Now they're dropping tidbits about Estrada being injured to keep the fans from rushing the offices. I wanted to be wrong about them. I'm not.

Bring back AA -- cue the haters

 

[Kurtz]

@Discoverer

...Am I allowed to complain about the fact that our "medical team" has allowed Estrada to pitch with a herniated disk (to the tune of an ERA of 8 over his last 6 starts) ?

 

[no13matssundin]

@Discoverer

...Am I allowed to complain about the fact that our "medical team" has allowed Estrada to pitch with a herniated disk (to the tune of an ERA of 8 over his last 6 starts) ?

Really good point, actually. Another sign that Upper Management is a dumpster fire, to let him do that .

 

[Discoverer]

@Discoverer

...Am I allowed to complain about the fact that our "medical team" has allowed Estrada to pitch with a herniated disk (to the tune of an ERA of 8 over his last 6 starts) ?

Sure. You're allowed to complain about anything you want, just as I'm allowed to disagree with you.

 

[Kurtz]

Sure. You're allowed to complain about anything you want, just as I'm allowed to disagree with you.

Cool.

So are you perfectly fine with our medical staff allowing Estrada to play though it all this time?

 

[ACC1224]

@Discoverer

...Am I allowed to complain about the fact that our "medical team" has allowed Estrada to pitch with a herniated disk (to the tune of an ERA of 8 over his last 6 starts) ?

It depends. Do you have a baseball avatar?

 

[GoonieFace]

I know i'm gonna get flack for this, but who cares: I thought for a little bit that I could have been wrong on Atkins/Shapiro and that the moves with Benoit/Grilli were wins. That they were better than I had thought.

NOPE.

What the Cleveland fans who grieved for us when we brought in Shapiro thought is true. They dunno what they're doing. Benoit/Grilli were total horseshoes. Upton is Terrrr--i-bbble. They couldn't do anything at the deadline when we needed another arm. Now they're dropping tidbits about Estrada being injured to keep the fans from rushing the offices. I wanted to be wrong about them. I'm not.

Bring back AA -- cue the haters

You mean the Cleveland fans that currently have a 1st place team and a slew of talented young players? Man, it must be hard for them.

I have more faith in Shapiro/Atkins building a sustainable winner than I had in AA. People just fell in love with his fantasy world trades, some worked, some didnt, but I think we are in better hands now and in the future.

 

[GoonieFace]

Cool.

So are you perfectly fine with our medical staff allowing Estrada to play though it all this time?

You dont think other teams have guys playing through injuries? Sorry to tell you, it happens all the time, this isnt inclusive to the Jays organization.

 

[Discoverer]

Cool.

So are you perfectly fine with our medical staff allowing Estrada to play though it all this time?

I find it hard to be upset one way or the other when I personally have no knowledge of what's involved in diagnosing or treating a herniated disk.

 

[Kurtz]

personally have no knowledge of what's involved in diagnosing or treating a herniated disk.

Aren't you a little bit disappointed though that our team medical staff (George Poulos and assistants) seems to share your lack of knowledge on the subject?

 

[theaub]

It does need to be said that the Jays have a continued history of guys either being misdiagnosed or wilfully trotted out there with severe injuries.

Or just outright lying about the length/severity of injuries (see every Blue Jay 'day to day' injury in the past 3 years)

 

[Discoverer]

Aren't you a little bit disappointed though that our team medical staff (George Poulos and assistants) seems to share your lack of knowledge on the subject?

From my brief google search, it seems as though players attempting to play through a herniated disk for a relatively long period of time (Justin Morneau, Tim Hudson, Neil Walker, Prince Fielder, among others) is pretty commonplace around baseball, so I'm assuming that either A) it's really hard to diagnose, B) it's not generally thought to get better by resting, or C) most teams' medical staffs are incompetent.

 

[Kurtz]

It does need to be said that the Jays have a continued history of guys either being misdiagnosed or wilfully trotted out there with severe injuries.

Or just outright lying about the length/severity of injuries (see every Blue Jay 'day to day' injury in the past 3 years)

Yep. Hell, I'm ok with the lying. Lying just hurts our feelings.

The continual misdiagnosis over the past few years that results in worsening of injuries for a number of our players though is a serious matter that's for some reason not being taken seriously.

Kershaw was diagnosed with a herniated disk in June. Spent 2.5 months on DL, but is now back and ready to help the Dodgers for the stretch run and in the playoffs.

Estrada showed signs of this injury around the same time. He pitched visibly hurt twice, then went on a mere 15 day DL, and has pitched through this injury since then (with horrible results).

 

[Discoverer]

Yep. Hell, I'm ok with the lying. Lying just hurts our feelings.

The continual misdiagnosis over the past few years that results in worsening of injuries for a number of our players though is a serious matter that's for some reason not being taken seriously.

Kershaw was diagnosed with a herniated disk in June. Spent 2.5 months on DL, but is now back and ready to help the Dodgers for the stretch run and in the playoffs.

Estrada showed signs of this injury around the same time. He pitched visibly hurt twice, then went on a mere 15 day DL, and has pitched through this injury since then (with horrible results).

"Kershaw met with Dr. Robert Watkins on Wednesday in Los Angeles after experiencing lower back discomfort, something he has reportedly been dealing with for a few weeks."

Should the Dodgers have shut him down earlier? Maybe he wouldn't have been out for so long.

 

[Loosie]

Has it ever occurred to you that players might be lying about the severity of their pain/injuries? Donaldson is an example right now. Players in pennant races don't like sitting on the sidelines while their teams struggle.

Yes the medical staff at times will have to step in and say. "No more you are sitting" Which seems to have been done with Donaldson, but at the same time there is also an onus on the players to actually be honest about their issues.

 

[Discoverer]

Yes the medical staff at times will have to step in and say. "No more you are sitting" Which seems to have been done with Donaldson, but at the same time there is also an onus on the players to actually be honest about their issues.

Hell, when Martin hurt his knee, it sure looked like Poulis told him he was sitting. Then he got pissed off, slammed the bench a few times, and went out anyway.

 

[zeke]

Cool.

So are you perfectly fine with our medical staff allowing Estrada to play though it all this time?

its a herniated disc. not much you can do. I'm sure he'll keep pitching.

 

[Kurtz]

From my brief google search, it seems as though players attempting to play through a herniated disk for a relatively long period of time (Justin Morneau, Tim Hudson, Neil Walker, Prince Fielder, among others) is pretty commonplace around baseball, so I'm assuming that either A) it's really hard to diagnose, B) it's not generally thought to get better by resting, or C) most teams' medical staffs are incompetent.

A) An MRI will reveal a herniated disk. It's not mysticism, it's modern medicine. I agree that a medical diagnosis is "really hard", but that's why you should have qualified medical professionals.

B) Herniated Disk doesn't get better by resting? Did you find that gem on George Poulos' website? In about 50% of cases, it requires surgery. In the other 50% it gets better through rest. It can also get worse when you pitch through it.

C) Finding 5 instances of players playing through a herniated disk over the past what, 6-7 years doesn't mean that "most medical staffs are incompetent". It definitely suggests that a few may be, with the Jays front and centre.

I bet the fact that Prince Fielder, who played with a herniated disk and now has to retire because of it doesn't have quite the same nonchalant attitude towards it as you do right now.

D) The lengths to which you'll go to defend George Poulous in the face of mounting evidence of his incompetence continue to impress and astound.

 

[zeke]

There is nothing wrong with trading good players for good players.

So our GM should offer up more if he feels the other side isn't asking for enough?

 

[theaub]

Are you purposely being daft?