Blue Jays Discussion: September Call-ups & Meaningful Baseball

[Mach85]

the guy has literally never put up great numbers, at any level pre or post draft, and hasn't been young for them either.

Hoffman hasn't lived up to the hype anywhere since drafted. So far, he throws decently hard and that's about it.

 

[zeke]

Jays' best September 14th standings:

1991: 81-62, +4.5
1992: 84-61, +4.0
1985: 90-52, +3.5
2015: 82-61, +3.5
1993: 82-63, +1.5
1989: 80-67, +1.5
1987: 86-57, 0.0
2016: 79-66, -2.0
1990: 77-68, -3.0
1988: 74-72, -8.5
1983: 81-66, -9.0
1986: 77-66, -9.0
2000: 76-70, -9.0
2008: 80-70, -9.5
1984: 83-64, -10.0
1999: 77-69, -10.0
2014: 77-71, -11.5
2006: 76-70, -13.0
2005: 72-73, -13.0
2010: 73-72, -15.0
2011: 75-74, -15.5
2007: 73-74, -15.5
2012: 65-78, -15.5
2003: 76-73, -16.0
2001: 70-73, -16.0
1994: 55-60, -16.0
1996: 67-81, -17.5
1982: 65-78, -19.0
1997: 71-78, -20.5
2013: 68-80, -22.0
1981: 31-59, -23.0
1998: 81-69, -24.0
2002: 68-80, -25.0
1995: 52-77, -25.5
2009: 65-79, -27.5
1980: 61-82, -30.0
2004: 59-85, -31.0
1978: 57-89, -31.5
1977: 48-96, -41.0
1979: 47-99, -49.5

 

[zeke]

Are you purposely being daft?

er, you're the one literally arguing that it's bad to win trades.

 

[Discoverer]

A) An MRI will reveal a herniated disk. It's not mysticism, it's modern medicine. I agree that a medical diagnosis is "really hard", but that's why you should have qualified medical professionals.

Yep. That probably explains the 13 medical doctors on payroll.

B) Herniated Disk doesn't get better by resting? Did you find that gem on George Poulos' website? In about 50% of cases, it requires surgery. In the other 50% it gets better through rest. It can also get worse when you pitch through it.

Did you read what I said? I said "I don't know anything about herniated disks, but I'm assuming one of these things might be true..." I mean... I thought the sentence made it pretty obvious that I wasn't making a claim about the appropriate treatment for a herniated disk.

C) Finding 5 instances of players playing through a herniated disk over the past what, 6-7 years doesn't mean that "most medical staffs are incompetent". It definitely suggests that a few may be, with the Jays front and centre.

Those are five of the six players I looked up. David Wright is the only example I've found so far of a player NOT playing with the injury. I also found two more examples of players who have had herniated disks: Kevin Kouzmanoff and Vic Black. Both played with the injury and eventually underwent surgery. It seems to be common practice.

I bet the fact that Prince Fielder, who played with a herniated disk and now has to retire because of it doesn't have quite the same nonchalant attitude towards it as you do right now.

Sure.

D) The lengths to which you'll go to defend George Poulous in the face of mounting evidence of his incompetence continue to impress and astound.

Just as impressive and astounding as your eagerness to pounce on every injury as a sure sign of their incompetence.

 

[ACC1224]

Martin plays hurt, Estrada pitches hurt, what's wrong with that kitty Donaldson?

 

[theaub]

er, you're the one literally arguing that it's bad to win trades.

I mean if you want to look at it in the most glib way possible, sure.

It is certainly, 100% bad if every single prospect you trade busts.

 

[Leaftors]

Martin plays hurt, Estrada pitches hurt, what's wrong with that kitty Donaldson?

not sure if serious

 

[ShaneFalco]

Martin plays hurt, Estrada pitches hurt, what's wrong with that kitty Donaldson?

And we traded for that injury-prone softie

 

[Loosie]

wow...it's almost like players want to 'play through the pain'

 

[ACC1224]

And we traded for that injury-prone softie

You can bet Lawrie wouldn't be watching these games.

(yes I'm joking)

 

[phillipmike]

I mean if you want to look at it in the most glib way possible, sure.

It is certainly, 100% bad if every single prospect you trade busts.

Not necessarily. When trading prospects (or even players) they are not finished products. Its on the acquiring team to develop them into better players.

In the end you win and lose trades. If most teams had their way i am sure they would be asking to win more trades than losing them.

Huntington has traded us;

Bautista for Diaz - we won
Snider for Lincoln - a wash
Hutch for Liriano + 2 prospects - looks like an early win for us

Made 6 deals with Kenny Williams after the Mike Sirotka trade.

We have taken the A's to the woodshed a few times and still deal with them;

Koch for Hinske
Nothing for Lidle
Kielty for Ted Lilly
Nothing for Scutaro
Taylor for Wallace
Not much for Rajai Davis
Donaldson trade

Maybe they got us with Hendriks for Chavez.

But you rather win trades than have it be win-win. GMs will continue to make trades as long as they make sense.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

This MRI must of accidentally gotten sent over seas or something the amount of time it's taking for them to come back....It's either that or the results are awful and they are going for a second opinion. So I will go with the former.

 

[Kurtz]

Just as impressive and astounding as your eagerness to pounce on every injury as a sure sign of their incompetence.

That's incorrect - I don't generally blame injuries on our doctors. I merely blame our "doctors" for their repeated inability to diagnose injuries and for them allowing our players to play through debilitating injuries, leading to poor performance and injury exacerbation.

I think the case of Estrada vs Kershaw is one clear recent example of how a competent medical team handles a herniated disk.

For me the excuse of "well, being a doctor is hard" or "there are examples where other team's doctors made mistakes" doesn't quite fly. I suppose that's where we differ.

 

[Leaftors]

This MRI must of accidentally gotten sent over seas or something the amount of time it's taking for them to come back....It's either that or the results are awful and they are going for a second opinion. So I will go with the former.

its making me worry

 

[Discoverer]

D) The lengths to which you'll go to defend George Poulous in the face of mounting evidence of his incompetence continue to impress and astound.

To offer an expanded response, this is a mischaracterization of my stance. I genuinely don't care about Poulis. I don't care that he's the head trainer, and I wouldn't care in the slightest if he got fired or who was hired to replace him.

However, I do have two issues with your constant anti-Poulis discourse. For one, it's the nature of the position that the only information we have is the negative side. When players get hurt and miss time, we hear about it. When players stay healthy (or get hurt and are able to stay on the field), thanks in part, presumably, to the work of the training staff, we don't hear a thing. So the only data points we have are a handful of known issues. I don't mind if you think Poulis should go, but I think it's odd that you've taken such a strong stance on something you have such limited information about.

The second issue I have is that this kind of trouble with diagnosis is common among all teams in baseball. Players take a few days off and then come back only to go on the DL a few days later all the time. Players play through injuries that exacerbate the problem all the time. Players insist everything is fine until they ultimately need surgery all the time. I know your argument in the past has been that we shouldn't aim higher just because other teams suck at it too, but, to me, you're treating it as though injury diagnosis and treatment is an exact science when it's quite clear that it's one thing that all teams are trying to figure out.

 

[Loosie]

This MRI must of accidentally gotten sent over seas or something the amount of time it's taking for them to come back....It's either that or the results are awful and they are going for a second opinion. So I will go with the former.

The real question is when did he go for the MRI and how long are the expected to get the results back. I'm sure the first they will do is release it to the public before letting Josh and the staff know.

 

[Discoverer]

I think the case of Estrada vs Kershaw is one clear recent example of how a competent medical team handles a herniated disk.

And if Estrada takes a few days off, feels good, and comes back and pitches well again, will that change your opinion?

 

[Lightsol]

You kind of have to see something to remember it. A lot of people only started following baseball closely last August. Not all the complainers now, but it's the truth that a lot of people who are annoyed(which everyone is annoyed, I should say over the top about it) at the way this team is playing right now didn't really follow baseball back then.

I only started following the Jays closely last August myself. Still remember glancing at them every once in a while during the 00's.

 

[Kurtz]

And if Estrada takes a few days off, feels good, and comes back and pitches well again, will that change your opinion?

Just a few days off?

If Estrada misses no more than a start and comes back pitching like he was pre-break, then yes, it'll absolutely change my opinion on the Estrada mistreatment.


But in the more likely scenario that Estrada has to be shut down for the season (now, or after more terrible starts), would that at all influence your opinion of the Jays med staff?

 

[Starry Knight]

This MRI must of accidentally gotten sent over seas or something the amount of time it's taking for them to come back....It's either that or the results are awful and they are going for a second opinion. So I will go with the former.

Examining MRIs and X-Rays is a laborious process, especially in the cases where there isn't an obvious problem (i.e. someone's femur snapped in half). If anything, there not being a immediate diagnosis could be indicative of the not being any major structural damage.

 

[Bluelines]

But they didn't? They came back and won and were a couple wins from making the WS. Jesus, won the division and was in final 4 and we choked? Haha. Awesome.

The way we lost vs KC is the very definition of a team choking. If it wasn't for a nameless Ranger committing 3 errors in one inning the Jays would have never made it past the Rangers, so yes for the Jays to make the AL finals another team had to choke.

Great strategy there Mapes, wait till the other team chokes and then win it all!!!!

 

[ShaneFalco]

I hope they mix it up a bit tonight and try to get some energy out of a guy like Pompey

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[Brown Dog]

Just a few days off?

If Estrada misses no more than a start and comes back pitching like he was pre-break, then yes, it'll absolutely change my opinion on the Estrada mistreatment.


But in the more likely scenario that Estrada has to be shut down for the season (now, or after more terrible starts), would that at all influence your opinion of the Jays med staff?

A herniated disc in and of itself may not be a problem. Lots of people--even people with heavy jobs--are able to function without a problem. Lots of times herniated discs are asymptomatic.

The issues come when the hernation leads to impingement of nerves, which leads to pain and numbness into the lower extremities. If this does not resolve with conservative therapy then surgery may be necessary.

But not all herniated discs are created equal so comparing Kershaw and Estrada situations may not be fair.

 

[zeke]

I mean if you want to look at it in the most glib way possible, sure.

It is certainly, 100% bad if every single prospect you trade busts.

not if the prospects you keep are good.

because that just means the other gm should fire his scouts.