Its that new generation of fan that they need to target, perhaps we will see the pendulum swing back to people seeking a live experience vs a personal screen based one. I like watching from home herr and there but the sights, sounds and smells of the rink is what does it for me. Fans dont need to go to every game but when you see die hards living in the city who havent attended in a few years which appears to be more common across major sports theres something up. One positive that could be taken from this is that our org is well aware of this issue and perhaps out in front of it now whereas some other orgs may be caught unprepared on how to react to this new sports biz world.
Sens reduce capacity at Canadian Tire Centre
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Its that new generation of fan that they need to target, perhaps we will see the pendulum swing back to people seeking a live experience vs a personal screen based one. I like watching from home herr and there but the sights, sounds and smells of the rink is what does it for me. Fans dont need to go to every game but when you see die hards living in the city who havent attended in a few years which appears to be more common across major sports theres something up. One positive that could be taken from this is that our org is well aware of this issue and perhaps out in front of it now whereas some other orgs may be caught unprepared on how to react to this new sports biz world.
MarkZackKarl
Registered User
What is clear to me is the games that have trouble selling are in October and November and during the week. For some reason, the NHL always front loads our schedule for these two months and I don't know why!
Take a look at ticket sales for the most likely low draw culprits Arizona and Vegas. These two teams are going to 100% sell out. You know why? The games are on Saturday. If the team continues down this path with our first potentially dominant team since 2007 (with last years run because they had heart) our crowds will pick up to 16 to 17K by the end of the year and the average. And we know the Sens don't offer any promotionnal ticket deals anymore aside from the nosebleed sections.
One other thing that people like coladin have never addressed: Ottawa supposedly has one of the lowest corporate bases in the league but yet has the 3rd most suites in the league sold? How does that make sense. Who is buying all the suites?
Take a look at ticket sales for the most likely low draw culprits Arizona and Vegas. These two teams are going to 100% sell out. You know why? The games are on Saturday. If the team continues down this path with our first potentially dominant team since 2007 (with last years run because they had heart) our crowds will pick up to 16 to 17K by the end of the year and the average. And we know the Sens don't offer any promotionnal ticket deals anymore aside from the nosebleed sections.
One other thing that people like coladin have never addressed: Ottawa supposedly has one of the lowest corporate bases in the league but yet has the 3rd most suites in the league sold? How does that make sense. Who is buying all the suites?
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
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PS wages not rising was reference to not having a contract (or raise because of it) since June 2014. The new contract only just came into effect, so that's no longer an issue, but it certainly was all last season and the playoffs. PS compensation being ahead of Private doesn't talk to the rate of growth, so it's not relevant, but even at that, it's the lower end positions (which granted are the bulk of them) that are ahead, the farther you go up the more it starts to flip, but that's another story all together.
The retro pay is nice, and once my personal issues with Phoenix are resolved, it will go towards some discretionary spending, of with Sens tickets could very well be a part of. As of right now, it was used mostly to pay off some debt from non-discretionary spending.
The article was linked solely as a source for the number of employees affected as opposed to cases, as that's all I was talking about. The authors understanding of the situation is unimportant although he didn't really draw any novel conclusions, it only talked about the number of cases, vs employees affected, not the effect problems had on employees, so I'm really not sure what you mean by him not understanding the issue; his points were x number of employees affected vs # of cases. Rate of cases being closed vs new cases, cost of fixing the problem.
I am not saying they get paid badly. What I am saying is that the pay raises over the previous ~10 years were way behind Canadian average.
I found a pay stub from 2009 (just after 2009 raise). Before our retro last month the total raise looks to be 5.1%. Thats over 8 years. Looking on the internet I see pay raises in those years for private sector being (estimated 2017 )
2017 : 2.6
2016 : 2.6
2015 : 2.8
2014 : 2.6
2013 : 2.9
2012 : 3.0
2011 : 3.0
2010 : 1.8
Is a total raise of 23% for Canadians on average over the same time frame.
We just did get the retro pay increase. 5% or so. Even that that puts public servant pay raises horrendously far behind the rest of Canada over the time period. And as it took them 4 years to negotiate the last deal, and the current deal expires in two months, I'm also not expecting to see another raise for 4 more years.
Now to address the other point on public servant wages. Two important distinctions. The first is the reports you see are always on total compensation. The fully loaded labor rate for the government is 40%, far higher than the rest of the work force. So yes they get "paid" more, but the vast majority of it is not cash in pocket, you cannot buy tickets with benefits. Furthermore public servants do pay into their pension, which is an ~7% "tax" on their earnings. I like it and agree it is required for comparing compensations, it also means that for the same "total compensation" argument, public servants get far less cash in hand for the same compensation. which drastically reduces discretionary spending compared to equivalent salaries in the private sector. I've worked both, and my drop in take home salary to work for the government was very very substantial for much the same job.
Secondly they compare across all jobs. The public service is noted for paying higher salaries to positions which are relatively non skilled compared to the private sector, but those salaries are still in the lower ends and they are not buying tickets. Those at the highest end (EX's, for example) generally get paid well less than their private counterparts.
This is not a woe is me for the public servants, no complaints here. But why I work in the public service is because of the benefits, and those benefits ensure my take home is far less than I can earn in the private sector. I had season tickets when I worked in the private sector, my take home was 30K more, I could afford it. Now not so much. A lot of stuff had to go, and the Sens tickets were the first crossed off the list.
And the issue is I am not alone. 1 out of 6 working people (based on Ontario labor participate rate) work for the federal government in Ottawa. No other city in the NHL has close to that for a dominant employer, so what happens to the public service has to be taken into account. And all griping aside, the pay raises have sucked since 2009.
I've been around government in this town for over 30 years.
some of the numbers you posted are more than a bit off.
if you took a 30k haircut in take home pay when you joined the government you did one of two things: you took a cut in responsibility or you came in at an exec level and your job is no longer tied to performance. yes govt execs don't make the same money as execs in the private sector.....but they can't get fired like execs in the private sector either.
no you can't spend benefits. you can spend the money you don't spend at the dentist on tickets though. over the past 5 years I've spent over 20k at the dentist on my family. I'm guessing I could of got a few tickets for that.
your pension being a tax is the first time I've ever heard that logic. congrats you really went over the top on that. defined benefit pension plans at this stage only exist in public service entities. They've bankrupted nearly every industry they've been a part of except the public sector because you cannot bankrupt the government. I suspect you'll feel differently about that tax when you are living on a 100% secure, incremented pension for life when you retire.
I will hold to what I said
find a single current study not written by a union employee that establishes public sector pay is lower and then we can have a discussion
some of the numbers you posted are more than a bit off.
if you took a 30k haircut in take home pay when you joined the government you did one of two things: you took a cut in responsibility or you came in at an exec level and your job is no longer tied to performance. yes govt execs don't make the same money as execs in the private sector.....but they can't get fired like execs in the private sector either.
no you can't spend benefits. you can spend the money you don't spend at the dentist on tickets though. over the past 5 years I've spent over 20k at the dentist on my family. I'm guessing I could of got a few tickets for that.
your pension being a tax is the first time I've ever heard that logic. congrats you really went over the top on that. defined benefit pension plans at this stage only exist in public service entities. They've bankrupted nearly every industry they've been a part of except the public sector because you cannot bankrupt the government. I suspect you'll feel differently about that tax when you are living on a 100% secure, incremented pension for life when you retire.
I will hold to what I said
find a single current study not written by a union employee that establishes public sector pay is lower and then we can have a discussion
Sun God Nika
Palestine <3.
- Apr 22, 2013
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coladin
Registered User
- Sep 18, 2009
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Well, i have addressed it. The corporate support bashing is another excuse and your suite sales info, as well as Club Bell being sold out are strong indications that corporate support is NOT the problem. And corporations don't buy the tarped seats. Fans should.
Our fanbase just isn't cutting it. Here's to hoping they start to put all the shit aside and just enjoy their team. Team ain't perfect. Only the Harlem Globetrotters are.
coladin
Registered User
- Sep 18, 2009
- 11,819
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So well said. There is a cost to everything. Your dental analogy is a great start. Whether public or private there are pros and cons to both sides.
I am private sector, small business...love certain parts of it, when i am not busy trying to exploit loopholes and not paying "my fair share", right Morneau? Cannot deny though, that sick leave benefits any kind wouldn't have been useful trying to juggle business, family and father passing away two weeks ago today. September was living hell. But private business, we have to keep going.
At the end of the day, as fans, we have to decide as a fanbase what kind of support this team deserves. Strip away all the excuses and decide if they are worthy or not. I think they are, and have been. They are our team. They play for us so they can be cheered. Adored by the hometown.
That Arizona game last year scarred me and no doubt one has to think, if you are Erik Karlsson "why play here when no one cares ". He doesn't care that people are watching at home because they have a 60" tv and cheap beer. He sees 8,000 empty seats. And yet he still played his heart out that night. Because he is a pro.
But he will not stick around for that when the time comes. Guaranteed. So enjoy it while it lasts or make Karlsson realize how much he is appreciated.
And that can only happen at the CTC.
DrEasy
Out rumptackling
No, I came over as a high level tech person. 120K in the private sector, but got some extra take home cash as they contracted me out so was able to claim a number of extras. CS3 when I came over (2008) was 90K, which when calculated in your studies add 40% for the fully loaded labor rate, or technically I was making more money in the government 126K to 120).
When you looked at my take home, it was 30K down. 18K in straight out salary, plus some benefits (mileage/parking mostly) and having to pay 7K into my pension. Work was pretty much the same.
My case is not unique but rare due to a certain technical expertise, and the government does not pay for those type of people, thats why they employ a number of contract staff. But the studies you are referring too will say I made a pay raise when I saw significantly less.
Wife has a great benefit plan, this meant nothing to me. Dont actually need it.
Its why I put "tax" in quotes. Look quite simply its money I have to pay that people in the private sector do not. It is a drain on my take home pay, pure and simple, that cannot be argued. As such I have less cash in hand than equivalent private sector employees. I prefer it that way, I love the pension, but the simple fact is it that it drops my take home pay.
I just explained why. Lets put it a different way. If you can point me to a study that shows public servants get more "take home" pay than private counterparts, notably at the higher levels where people are ticket buyers, show me because I do not believe anyone has done one. You are arguing that because public servants have a much higher fully loaded labor rate they should be more apt to buy ticket, but fully loaded labor rates are not cash in hand, and I cannot buy tickets with cash that I simply do not have.
you took a massive pay cut to come into the feds as a cs 03. as I said....you took a cut in responsibility.
your numbers regarding loaded cost of labour are interesting. you should maybe Google that phrase and understand what it means prior to using it. The concept exists more or less everywhere in the working world. Just so you know, on the rare occasion when government uses loaded labour costs in business cases the figure that is used is 20%.
you are right. people in the private sector do not pay into superannuation. but they have choices. they can choose to retire paupers or they can choose to save to retire. And given their employers do not contribute as generously to their retirement as the government does to yours, they need to save more money than what you contribute to superannuation. And of course your pension is guaranteed, it's not subject to whims of the market, real estate busts, or Morneau coming along and changing the game.
re take home pay....what do you want? all those benefits, the secure pension, the 7.5 hour day, the secure job AND you want more take home pay than the private sector guy?
if you are so unhappy with your compensation, feel free to jump right back into the private sector. I'm sure there's a 60 hour week waiting for you out there somewhere
Nac Mac Feegle
wee & free
- Jun 10, 2011
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Ottawah does have a point with the pensions. My father worked in a low level job for the feds and took one of their early buyouts in the early 1990s (took it while the whole bilingualism thing was reaching a boiling point, he left before they could toss his unilingual butt out). He had a ton of money taken off his buyout and his pension for many years, plus lost the regular CPP. It practically forced him into bankruptcy with all the clawbacks. There are some tricky rules the feds don't tell you about their pension plan, where you end up losing a fair amount that private workers get.
The problem with Phoenix is not that we aren't getting paid, it's the uncertainty of the pay.
I've been overpaid, underpaid and not paid in the past 2 years. I've had to worry about not making monthly payments in certain months just because I didn't get paid the right amount, sure I eventually get it in a few weeks, but that doesn't allow me to plan ahead. It's been better in the past few months however, so maybe we see some people get their tickets back.
If you are able to spend extra cash on tickets then all the power to you. I did it for over 10 years and it was awesome. Now that I don't have the same luxury (and it's not fully Phoenix related, I now have 2 young kids and all that comes with it) I for sure miss it, but it's not that I'm a bad fan or because I make excuses or whatever you want to call it. Hell, once my kids are done daycare, I'll probably get them back since I'll be f***ing rich once I finish paying that!
It sucks to not be able to go as much anymore, but it is what it is. It's not like we are happy to not be able to afford it. I make a pretty good salary, so I figure it must be really hard for many others in this city to even think about getting tickets.
I've been overpaid, underpaid and not paid in the past 2 years. I've had to worry about not making monthly payments in certain months just because I didn't get paid the right amount, sure I eventually get it in a few weeks, but that doesn't allow me to plan ahead. It's been better in the past few months however, so maybe we see some people get their tickets back.
If you are able to spend extra cash on tickets then all the power to you. I did it for over 10 years and it was awesome. Now that I don't have the same luxury (and it's not fully Phoenix related, I now have 2 young kids and all that comes with it) I for sure miss it, but it's not that I'm a bad fan or because I make excuses or whatever you want to call it. Hell, once my kids are done daycare, I'll probably get them back since I'll be f***ing rich once I finish paying that!
It sucks to not be able to go as much anymore, but it is what it is. It's not like we are happy to not be able to afford it. I make a pretty good salary, so I figure it must be really hard for many others in this city to even think about getting tickets.
The Phoenix fiasco along with the 4 year waits between CBA's makes most PS pretty tight these days. Got a bit of a laugh from what I assume are none PS workers telling PS workers that it's not really that bad according to what they have read and or heard. I think this is responsible for a small portion of the decline but mostly that our die hard fan base is really not that strong or large. Some of the reasoning in here from fans displays that imo.
coladin
Registered User
- Sep 18, 2009
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I feel for you pal, and you are not the problem. Many here just find it tough at a certain point in their lives to spend the money. No one here can judge that. Nor should they. I may be misinterpreted in my comments, but not once did I counsel someone to not buy food or clothing, or more common issues of signing a child up for hockey, soccer, or whatever the situation is, and buy hockey tickets instead! That is just silly.
What I feel I can judge are those who wilfully choose not to go...they are the problem. And there really is no solution to that. Someone needs to be compelled to go, and those fixes are not going to happen because there is a shiny new arena. It didn't work at the CTC. I saw a game against the Pens, in 96 that had 11,478. To see Mario, Jagr and Francis. We need the next wave of fans to support this team as it deserves to be supported. Many have been turned off, feel a bridge has been burned and resort to excuse making when the reality they just don't feel the need to go.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
coladin
Registered User
- Sep 18, 2009
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Right. Because they won't, which is why the next generation will hopefully be better fans.
Now lets not jump from the issue at hand to public servant bashing.
I did not say I wanted any of that and I am very happy with my "total level of compensation". I never said I wanted more.
What I said was that public servants pay raises have been well below the rest of Canada for the better part of a decade (a fact, during which time the Sens attendance has been in decline) and that take home pay is noticeably lower for equivalent paid private sector workers (fact). This has a very serious impact on the ability of PS employees to buy tickets.
Incorrect. My company had me consulting for the government, and they liked me so much they offered me a job. The same job.
And now I work more than I did when I was contracted to the government. I feel different about it now that I own the responsibility as opposed to having a company makes goodness knows how much on me ....
You've managed to spin a lot of different stories in this thread
The consulting industry is not representative of compensation in the private sector and it never has been. What you did was you got out of the consulting industry rat race - that's very different from moving from the "private sector" to the public sector. A presumption on my end I suppose but this is the first you've mentioned of the consulting industry.
The recent PIPS deal was 4 years at 5%. Do you know why the wage increases are that low over 4 years? Because every single study being produced by non union employed economists states that the public sector is over paid relative to the private sector....and in saying that they are not referring to the consulting industry that you came from. All the various unions signed in that range...5% for 4 years and it is a reflection of public versus private sector. Again, private sector ... not the consulting industry. They, the unions, cannot argue for more money when the studies show the PS is already ahead and they cannot argue for most benefits when the studies show the PS is way ahead in that...so they hung their hat on sick leave.
So yes, I get your haircut in those circumstances....but converting from that industry to the government is not common and those that I know that have done it did it knowingly from a financial perspective and where after something different than take home pay.
From the Treasury Board of Canada website:
https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/report/orp/2007/er-ed/vol2/vol202-eng.asp
"In aggregate, employer‑paid components other than regular salary amount to about 38% of total regular pay. "
So my 40% seems like a solid number.
aragorn
Do The Right Thing
- Aug 8, 2004
- 28,620
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My issue is with this cheap owner, he is quickly becoming like the Leibermans for me.
- replaced Marshy's with Bert's Bar, We used to eat at Marshy's regular but I have yet to step foot into Bert's bar.
- took out numerous Tim Horton concessions & now lineups have tripled or worse.
- increased parking costs, now I don't drive to games any more.
- refused to send me tickets, now expects me to use my own ink to print tickets even though I've paid hundreds of dollars for tickets. Ink is more expensive than the damn printers these days & if he is too cheap to send me tickets than I'll stop going & save my money.
- replaced Marshy's with Bert's Bar, We used to eat at Marshy's regular but I have yet to step foot into Bert's bar.
- took out numerous Tim Horton concessions & now lineups have tripled or worse.
- increased parking costs, now I don't drive to games any more.
- refused to send me tickets, now expects me to use my own ink to print tickets even though I've paid hundreds of dollars for tickets. Ink is more expensive than the damn printers these days & if he is too cheap to send me tickets than I'll stop going & save my money.
Tuna99
Registered User
- Sep 26, 2009
- 14,970
- 7,013
Cost is a big thing for consumers, the actual price which is very high for the overall entertainment value, which is low. The Sens / NHL has the same intermission entertainment that they had 20 years ago, the same music, the same tricks going - I think fans are burnt out on it.
You couple that with the time commitment getting in and getting out, and tag on an average of about $100/person to see a game on a Tuesday night against Carolina, New Jersey - the value isn't there.
being asked to shell out a large ticket in a town that isn't a large ticket town (I have friend that won't even spend $100 on dinner let alone a hockey game which is a tougher sell for non-sports fans when a delicious dinner with a wine buzz is a much easier sell to a group) from an owner who you feel isn't pulling his weight when it comes to representing the team well and just being a person you want to see succeed, it's a tough sell right now. Have to be honest.
The Redblacks right now, even for a non-sports fan, you can enjoy a beautiful outdoor summer night, in a great atmosphere, have a couple of pops outdoors, it's a much thing to get behind, and it comes with a new energy.
You couple that with the time commitment getting in and getting out, and tag on an average of about $100/person to see a game on a Tuesday night against Carolina, New Jersey - the value isn't there.
being asked to shell out a large ticket in a town that isn't a large ticket town (I have friend that won't even spend $100 on dinner let alone a hockey game which is a tougher sell for non-sports fans when a delicious dinner with a wine buzz is a much easier sell to a group) from an owner who you feel isn't pulling his weight when it comes to representing the team well and just being a person you want to see succeed, it's a tough sell right now. Have to be honest.
The Redblacks right now, even for a non-sports fan, you can enjoy a beautiful outdoor summer night, in a great atmosphere, have a couple of pops outdoors, it's a much thing to get behind, and it comes with a new energy.
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
- 54,036
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Is that a Sens thing or a tim Hortons (or whoever is running) thing? I would haveimagined they might outsource management of concession, for example to a company like Aramark. Did they replace tim hortons with a different option or just leave a vacant spot?
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