Senators removing about 1500 seat from the Canadian Tire Centre

[Fenway]

They actually do play in Ottawa. Here's the address:

Canadian Tire Centre
1000 Palladium Drive
Ottawa, ON, K2V 1A5


A 2 second google search could get you the website that explained why Bruce Firestone built the building where he did.

Kanata was forced by the government of Ontario to become part of Ottawa in 2001. This has been a common practice in Canada starting with the creation of 'Metro' Toronto in the late 50's. Killion can give us more details.

The team wound up in Kanata after the NHL strongly suggested that building an arena across the Ottawa River in Hull ( now called Gatineau ) would not fly as that would place three franchises in Quebec.

Ottawa is an extremely fragile market and it remains to be seen how TSN plans to distribute regional games this season since they now have Montreal games as well.

Ottawa the past 3 years has enjoyed regional coverage on TSN5 from Ottawa east to Newfoundland but now TSN has the Habs rights as well. Does Ottawa continue to beam their games into Atlantic Canada???

 

[ColinM]

Ottawa isn't the first Canadian team to do this. Calgary did this with their upper deck circa 1999 to 2004.

 

[Inkling]

If they wanted to get rid of seats without it looking cheap, they should have removed all the seats, and replaced them with one or two fewer seats in each row, but wider ones, so each ticket would be for a more comfortable seating option than is currently in place. It'd have justified raising prices, too, which I imagine he'd like.

They did that two years ago when they took out a bunch of seats to create some club seating areas with tables and comfortable seats, but those seats were in the 100-level. The capacity went down from 19-something to 18-something as a result of that. The seats that they took out this time are the ones at the top, so probably a harder sell for club seating. Given the prospect of the new arena, they also probably don't want to throw a lot of money into renovations that don't have an immediate payback.

Ottawa the past 3 years has enjoyed regional coverage on TSN5 from Ottawa east to Newfoundland but now TSN has the Habs rights as well. Does Ottawa continue to beam their games into Atlantic Canada???

TSN is paying a lot of money for their Senators regional coverage (up to $400million), so I don't imagine that they will bury it. Teams commonly share regional coverage in Canada. Likely that they will create either an overflow channel when there are conflicts, or have a TSN-Habs and TSN-Sens. Not sure if the specifics have been announced yet. The Sens region doesn't change and there's no way that the team or TSN will want to not broadcast to the entire region, given what they are paying. It's not usually an issue in Canada because there are so few cable/satellite providers, and they are the same ones that own the channels anyway.

 

[Erndog]

What an incredible burn from the other guys in town

 

[Inkling]

What an incredible burn from the other guys in town

That is very funny but also kind of interesting given that the hockey arena under the football stadium (TDPlace Arena, formerly the Civic Centre) has tarped off seats for 67's games for several seasons now.

 

[Bjorn Le]

They actually do play in Ottawa. Here's the address:

Canadian Tire Centre
1000 Palladium Drive
Ottawa, ON, K2V 1A5

A 2 second google search could get you the website that explained why Bruce Firestone built the building where he did.

As Fenway said, Ottawa only in name. They play in Kanata, quite a distance from the Ottawa core (and Quebec side suburbs). You seem like an Ottawa fan. Interesting you don't know your Ottawa geography.

Second of all, I know "why" places did it. What I don't get is why they thought it was a good move. The arguments against suburban venues still held true in the 1980's and 1990's, but franchises were obsessed with building them there. Such strategy was an exercise in the lack of common sense. No team would be caught dead advocating a venue in the outer suburbs anymore.

 

[therealkoho]

Sorry you are on the other end of this but.. we out west get soooo very tired of being dumped on this type of thing by your fellow Canadians. It is hard to resist a little payback. I have nothing against the Sens and wish you good luck in the coming season.

Except for Kyle Turris... F#$K Kyle Turris.

uh, not sure what you're talking about here, didn't dump on anything, anywhere or anyone

 

[Inkling]

As Fenway said, Ottawa only in name. They play in Kanata, quite a distance from the Ottawa core (and Quebec side suburbs). You seem like an Ottawa fan. Interesting you don't know your Ottawa geography.

Is this reality? There is no 'only in name'. The City of Ottawa is a real actual thing and Kanata is a suburb located inside of it. Amalgamation happened in 2001 which is ages ago (unless you're like, 100 years old). It doesn't change the fact that they are located far from downtown, it's actually irrelevant to it, so I'm not sure why people are hung up about whether they are in Ottawa or not.

 

[therealkoho]

As Fenway said, Ottawa only in name. They play in Kanata, quite a distance from the Ottawa core (and Quebec side suburbs). You seem like an Ottawa fan. Interesting you don't know your Ottawa geography.

Second of all, I know "why" places did it. What I don't get is why they thought it was a good move. The arguments against suburban venues still held true in the 1980's and 1990's, but franchises were obsessed with building them there. Such strategy was an exercise in the lack of common sense. No team would be caught dead advocating a venue in the outer suburbs anymore.

They put it in Kanata because Terrace Investments already owned the land pre-bid and so would have no expense in buying property and would see a 10 fold increase in value of that property, which is an asset worth having in that he could now borrow heavily on the property. If they didn't get the franchise, they still had a well placed development property but with no where near that kind of value.

here's a highly sanitized version of the events

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-grew-up-flamed-out-and-finally-found-success

Firestone had good reason to marvel at his own accomplishment. The Ottawa bid depended heavily on a land development scheme to create the wealth Firestone needed to pay the NHL’s $50 million entry fee.

His plan was built on paper and chutzpah: Firestone had neither an arena secured, nor stacks of money when the NHL handed him the keys to a new franchise. His firm, Terrace Investments, had about $22 million in cash and equivalents. Hamilton, by contrast, had a 17,500-seat arena already built and the financial backing of Ron Joyce, the deep-pocketed co-founder of Tim Horton’s.

 

[ottawa]

This is a pathetic attempt increase their overall sold out % to make Ottawa seem like a hockey city

Love the city, but a city with fans (casual ones, not those on this site) that thinks Phaneuf is a #1 and Spezza is still with the team won't want to buy tickets because it's more exclusive.

 

[Yukon Joe]

You know, Winnipeg fans have been saying for 6 years that a smaller building is actually better, because of increased ticket scarcity, whereas many posters on HF boards have still subscribed to the "bigger is better" mantra. I think this is just another data point to confirm that bigger is not always better.

The whole point of reducing capacity is that it makes tickets more scarce. Tickets are harder to come by. If tickets are harder to come by it makes buying seasons tickets more valuable. And once people buy seasons tickets then the ticket is pre-sold. Even if the game is on a Tuesday night, in the middle of winter, against a ho-hum opponent, from the Sens perspective the ticket is still sold.

I can remember back in my younger clubbing days, you'd have one club that was jam packed, with an enormous line-up to get in. Often times you'd have another club across the street that was only half-full and you could walk in. By any objective means the half-full club was just as good - they played the same music, served the same drinks, was decorated just as nicely. But human psychology works such that you when something seems scarce, it seems more valuable, and you're more likely to go. So people would continue to ignore the club that was half-empty, and instead line up for an hour to get into the full club.

 

[Bjorn Le]

They put it in Kanata because Terrace Investments already owned the land pre-bid and so would have no expense in buying property and would see a 10 fold increase in value of that property, which is an asset worth having in that he could now borrow heavily on the property. If they didn't get the franchise, they still had a well placed development property but with no where near that kind of value.

here's a highly sanitized version of the events

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-grew-up-flamed-out-and-finally-found-success

I know lol. I understand it was an appropriate business move for the investors, but it arguably hurt the team, not just did them no favours. An issue that could have and should have been foreseen. It's clear the original ownership group cared more about making money than owning a team, which threatens the viability of the franchise. Nowadays no investor, no matter if they owned the land, would dare move/establish a team in the outer suburbs, and even if they wanted to, I'm sure the league would have a problem with it.

 

[Kimota]

Outrageous!!!!! They are embarrassing the league & game MOVE them CONTRACT them get the out of my league!!! All they are doing is stealing Revenue Sharing from the 7 Canadian teams that are forced to pay Billions into Gary's scheme and are draining league resources. ZERO hockey fans there that will never support a team there!!!!




OH the team is in Ottawa forget what I said they get a pass

So Ballsille is not there anymore to scare you. Yet you still have nightmares about it.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I know lol. I understand it was an appropriate business move for the investors, but it arguably hurt the team, not just did them no favours. An issue that could have and should have been foreseen. It's clear the original ownership group cared more about making money than owning a team, which threatens the viability of the franchise. Nowadays no investor, no matter if they owned the land, would dare move/establish a team in the outer suburbs, and even if they wanted to, I'm sure the league would have a problem with it.

Unless I've misunderstood the entire scenario, Terrace did not have the money for an NHL team and nobody else at the time was stepping up to bring a team to Ottawa.

Terrace creating enough equity to fund an NHL team hinged on the arena being in Kanata because by building an arena in Kanata, Terrace could get farm land they bought surrounding the arena rezoned which would cause it to go up 100s of times in value which would then allow Terrace an asset to leverage either for development or to borrow against in order to afford the 50M expansion fee and build an arena.

At the time, no group with money was trying to bring a team to Ottawa. Maybe a more ideal group would have showed up a few years later when the NHL expanded again but there are no guarantees. Not to mention, if the Senators didn't get a team when they did and another Ontario city like Hamilton received a team instead, it may have significantly lowered the odds of the NHL being interested in expanding to Canada later on with how weak the dollar was in the mid 90s/early 00s and Gary Bettman's directive to grow the game by expanding to non-traditional markets.

It wasn't a short cut. Someone came around at the right place at the right time with a great idea that would only work if the team was in Kanata.

There were a lot of hitches along the way, and Firestone didn't end up owning the team for very long with other investors eventually coming in. But again, no Kanata arena=No Senators in 91, and given the landscape of the NHL perhaps no Senators for a very long time if ever. So you can't really say it arguably hurt the team because the choice is less than ideal arena location or no team to hurt at all...

 

[KingPuckChoo]

haha pretty sad but messed up at the same time

 

[Fenway]

Is this reality? There is no 'only in name'. The City of Ottawa is a real actual thing and Kanata is a suburb located inside of it. Amalgamation happened in 2001 which is ages ago (unless you're like, 100 years old). It doesn't change the fact that they are located far from downtown, it's actually irrelevant to it, so I'm not sure why people are hung up about whether they are in Ottawa or not.

But when the Senators were born Kanata was a suburb.

Hull ( now called Gatineau ) was a very viable option in the early 90's but there was the issue of the Sens being the third team in Quebec.

Getting out of the parking lots at 'The Palladium' after a game is a headache and the only other NHL arena that is as bad is the BB&T Center in Sunrise, Florida.

I will be curious to see if the tarps stay in place for games with Toronto and Montreal.

 

[Inkling]

Unless I've misunderstood the entire scenario, Terrace did not have the money for an NHL team and nobody else at the time was stepping up to bring a team to Ottawa.

The Senators are the quintessential 'fake it 'till ya make it' story. They had no business owning an NHL team. It was only through sheer willpower and 'chutzpah' is probably another apt word.

 

[ottawah]

As Fenway said, Ottawa only in name. They play in Kanata, quite a distance from the Ottawa core (and Quebec side suburbs).

A 15 minute drive. Thats not quite a distance. In fact you can get to 174/trim in 25 minutes, which is pretty much the far end of town on the other side. If this was such a bother, why has attendance for almost two decades been exceptionally string, far stronger then when it was downtown. Attendance average in "Kanata" quickly went up 60% over the previous downtown location.

The issue is simply money. Ottawa has a great average salary, thanks to the government, but a lower number of upper salaried people (100k+, the ones that usually buy the tickets). Also factor in that the pay raises over the last 8 years have been about 4% total, you get the idea of what is happening. It is cost. With pay raises not keeping up with inflation nor the housing price increases, it is having an effect on discretionary budgets, and with HD TV these days, many people are finding the cost of the game vs watching on TV is not on par with say dining out vs cooking at home. Sens tickets are the first to go.

Ottawa spent close to 20 years selling out most of its games, including almost besting the Toronto Maples Leafs one year. The historical data makes it clear location is not an issue to attendance. I know a lot of people who have cancelled season tickets, and they say it is all about money.

I still think they will be a better draw downtown, but 30% better? With no parking at the new stadium, I think thats a huge stretch.

 

[Masked]

Hull ( now called Gatineau ) was a very viable option in the early 90's but there was the issue of the Sens being the third team in Quebec.

Hull was never a viable option. It's much more than just being the third team in Quebec. A team in Hull would alienate far more fans than the current location. Crossing the bridges to Hull during rush hour is horrific. People from Ottawa, unless they're close to the bridges just wouldn't make the commute over there on a regular basis.

 

[Bjorn Le]

A 15 minute drive. Thats not quite a distance. In fact you can get to 174/trim in 25 minutes, which is pretty much the far end of town on the other side. If this was such a bother, why has attendance for almost two decades been exceptionally string, far stronger then when it was downtown. Attendance average in "Kanata" quickly went up 60% over the previous downtown location.

The issue is simply money. Ottawa has a great average salary, thanks to the government, but a lower number of upper salaried people (100k+, the ones that usually buy the tickets). Also factor in that the pay raises over the last 8 years have been about 4% total, you get the idea of what is happening. It is cost. With pay raises not keeping up with inflation nor the housing price increases, it is having an effect on discretionary budgets, and with HD TV these days, many people are finding the cost of the game vs watching on TV is not on par with say dining out vs cooking at home. Sens tickets are the first to go.

Ottawa spent close to 20 years selling out most of its games, including almost besting the Toronto Maples Leafs one year. The historical data makes it clear location is not an issue to attendance. I know a lot of people who have cancelled season tickets, and they say it is all about money.

I still think they will be a better draw downtown, but 30% better? With no parking at the new stadium, I think thats a huge stretch.

Come on, it's not 15 minutes. For example, from one major government building in Downtown Ottawa, (GAC at 125 Sussex), it's probably closer to half an hour. After 5, when most people would be leaving, it's much longer. When I used to visit friends at Carelton, when we would go to Byward around 5-6 it would take 20 minutes. The few times I've made the drive out to Kanata that late, it's definitely closer to 45 minutes, even worse at sometimes. If you're coming from Gatineau, it's a very long trip. I wouldn't characterize Ottawa attendance as exceptionally strong either, it's been some of the worst in Canada. Still good by league standards, but "exceptionally strong" is wrong.

I don't think the problem is income or technology related. When they first came, you can expect decent to strong attendance regardless of arena location because of the honeymoon period. As well, the suburbs were smaller in the late 1990s and early 2000s meaning congestion out to the suburbs during rush hour was less so than it is now. I've noticed this in pretty much ever major metro area over the last 15 years. In Toronto it's noticeably bad, but you see it in Ottawa, Montreal, London, Hamilton too. Even though the 417 has been expanded in the last few years, congestion is typical of any major city during rush hour. And of course, public transportation out to Kanata isn't great.

You don't need parking at a downtown stadium. Parking around most downtown stadiums is minimal and it's usually irrelevant. The people who want to drive are willing to pay and will find it, while others will take public transportation. If Ottawa had a downtown arena, we wouldn't have to even talk about tarping off the upper bowl because they would have sold out every single playoff game. Fans are divided in people who are diehard fans, and those who don't really care. Diehard fans will go no matter what, the rest will only go when it makes sense. Currently, it doesn't make sense for them to make the trek out to Kanata on a weekday.

 

[Fandlauer]

Called at 915 yesterday to buy seasons tickets. No answer, so I left a message.

I called about 5 times throughout the day. Nobody picked up the phone, nobody returned my message. Hours are mon-fri 9-5.

Sens customer service ladies and gentleman.

What a ****in joke. And people wonder why Sens fans are pissed at this organization.

Ya, ***** some more Melnyk about how we don't buy tickets. ****ing outrageous.

 

[Killion]

Unless I've misunderstood the entire scenario, Terrace did not have the money for an NHL team and nobody else at the time was stepping up to bring a team to Ottawa.

Terrace creating enough equity to fund an NHL team hinged on the arena being in Kanata because by building an arena in Kanata, Terrace could get farm land they bought surrounding the arena rezoned which would cause it to go up 100s of times in value which would then allow Terrace an asset to leverage either for development or to borrow against in order to afford the 50M expansion fee and build an arena.

At the time, no group with money was trying to bring a team to Ottawa. Maybe a more ideal group would have showed up a few years later when the NHL expanded again but there are no guarantees. Not to mention, if the Senators didn't get a team when they did and another Ontario city like Hamilton received a team instead, it may have significantly lowered the odds of the NHL being interested in expanding to Canada later on with how weak the dollar was in the mid 90s/early 00s and Gary Bettman's directive to grow the game by expanding to non-traditional markets.

It wasn't a short cut. Someone came around at the right place at the right time with a great idea that would only work if the team was in Kanata.

There were a lot of hitches along the way, and Firestone didn't end up owning the team for very long with other investors eventually coming in. But again, no Kanata arena=No Senators in 91, and given the landscape of the NHL perhaps no Senators for a very long time if ever. So you can't really say it arguably hurt the team because the choice is less than ideal arena location or no team to hurt at all...

Well, unless I too "misunderstood" youve got it alrighty, good post, exactly what went down, how things transpired. Heavily leveraged. Didnt quibble with the NHL's asking price of $50M the way Hamilton & Karmanos did who was then bidding against Exposito's group for a Tampa team. Ottawa enthusiastically sending down a "fan club" complete with brass band to the Breakers Hotel in Palm Beach where the BOG's were meeting to decide on who gets in....

What wasnt known, made public at the time & for obvious reasons was that Esposito who also didnt quibble over the $50M Expansion Fee had lost his backing shortly before he won the Tampa bid, leaving him scrambling to find replacements, money needed not just for the fee but also for an arena. Phil finding his Sugar Daddy in the form of erstwhile Tokyo based golf course developer Kokusai Green, a front for the Japanese Yakuza's money laundering operations.

As for Ottawa, there were many at the time (myself included) who thought Firestone & his group were absolutely on drugs, total Moon Shot Artists. Leveraged to the hilt, building an arena out in the middle of nowhere, apparently never heard about Cleveland's Richfield Coliseum (the site today a Bird Sanctuary) & other suburban/rural horror stories, I guess taking Kevin Costners Field of Dreams movie literally, like it was a documentary, a plan. Just mindblowing. No question Ottawa an excellent hockey market, one of the cradles of the game in Canada going back over 125++ years. But its not a super-wealthy market, location & convenience critical, climate also a big concern.

You dont go building your shop miles from the city center, expecting your customers to deal with the notoriously wicked winter driving for which Ottawa & the Ottawa Valley are very well known as was the case with Richfield's location which was subject to the Lake Effect. One exit, on & off-ramps, a turnoff specially built as was the case with Kanata & in Richfields case if you missed it... which was easy to do crawling through a Whiteout on Black Ice... what do you expect? Combine that with the CDN$ cratering in the 90's, short-pocketed desperate owners, nightmare...

Enter Eugene Melnyk. Eugene bears watching. Rogue. "Colorful" to be kind. Tried to buy Maple Leaf Gardens from MLSE and no, no I dont believe it was to house his St. Michaels Major Junior team as he claimed at the time.... However all that being said I'm quite confident a new building gets done, and despite the mistake that was Kanata as others have expressed it served its purpose in providing the foundations for Firestones winning bid, acquisition of a team. Unlike elsewhere, Glendale Arizona for example with similar challenges at least in this case the taxpayers arent on the hook for hundreds of millions.

 

[Gnashville]

So Ballsille is not there anymore to scare you. Yet you still have nightmares about it.

He doesn't bother me one bit he is never going to be involved in the NHL anymore!! What is he doing now anyway? I hope that ESPN does a 30 for 30 on his lies and crooked behavior in Pittsburgh, Nashville, and Arizona. Just so everyone knows what a total jackhole he was.

I would just like the same "Valid Reasons" that Ottawa has for poor attendance to be applied to others. And I would like the ones claiming "no dirt cheap tickets" in Ottawa to acknowledge that yes they do have them.

 

[Jumptheshark]

if this had been a southern team northern fans would be pointing and saying "See"

 

[ottawah]

Come on, it's not 15 minutes. For example, from one major government building in Downtown Ottawa, (GAC at 125 Sussex), it's probably closer to half an hour.

I work downtown, Right by the parliament buildings, and its 15 minutes (minimal traffic of course). Its 25K, 22K of highway (11 minutes at 120), and the last section takes about 4 minutes. You chosen a spot where very few work, they all work around. bank bank/slater.

Last year I had tickets to the season opener. I left downtown (Kent/Queen) at 6:30, I was in my seat at 7:05. If 35 minutes is way too much of a hardship for people, they are not much for fans .....

After 5, when most people would be leaving, it's much longer. When I used to visit friends at Carelton, when we would go to Byward around 5-6 it would take 20 minutes. The few times I've made the drive out to Kanata that late, it's definitely closer to 45 minutes, even worse at sometimes. If you're coming from Gatineau, it's a very long trip. I wouldn't characterize Ottawa attendance as exceptionally strong either, it's been some of the worst in Canada. Still good by league standards, but "exceptionally strong" is wrong.

19000 average over 11 years? In the NHL thats not exceptionally strong? OK, very strong.

I don't think the problem is income or technology related. When they first came, you can expect decent to strong attendance regardless of arena location because of the honeymoon period.

That was untrue in Ottawa though. They could not sell out a 10000 downtown seat stadium their second year, well within a honeymoon period.

As well, the suburbs were smaller in the late 1990s and early 2000s meaning congestion out to the suburbs during rush hour was less so than it is now. I've noticed this in pretty much ever major metro area over the last 15 years. In Toronto it's noticeably bad, but you see it in Ottawa, Montreal, London, Hamilton too. Even though the 417 has been expanded in the last few years, congestion is typical of any major city during rush hour.

I think it is a bit illogical to say the more people that live around the arena, the worse the attendance will get. I would personally say exactly the opposite.

And of course, public transportation out to Kanata isn't great.

But people will not take it anyway. They complain it is hard to get out of, yet refuse to take the bus. The busses are there, but only 10% of people will take them.

But as for getting out, not sure why it is hard. I take the bus from downtown, its generally a 30 minute ride to CTC, certainly shorter than driving in the 3:30-5:30 timeframe.

You don't need parking at a downtown stadium. Parking around most downtown stadiums is minimal and it's usually irrelevant. The people who want to drive are willing to pay and will find it, while others will take public transportation. If Ottawa had a downtown arena, we wouldn't have to even talk about tarping off the upper bowl because they would have sold out every single playoff game. Fans are divided in people who are diehard fans, and those who don't really care. Diehard fans will go no matter what, the rest will only go when it makes sense. Currently, it doesn't make sense for them to make the trek out to Kanata on a weekday.

But they have been making it for 20 years, so what has changed .......