Senators removing about 1500 seat from the Canadian Tire Centre

[coladin]

The Senators were basically created as a real estate development with an NHL team thrown in for free, that's why.

But that isn't different from any other sports venue. Every sports venue is hinged on new redevelopments of older areas, revitalization of existing areas, or the redevelopment of a new area.

 

[coladin]

Ottawa is a fragile market that is locked into a very small territory unlike the other Canadian teams. It hits home when you cross the Ottawa River into what was Hull and now called Gatineau - the francophone fans have not embraced the Sénateurs d'Ottawa over Le Tricolore and that is a sizable portion of the Ottawa Metro.

It is compounded by general indifference in much of Eastern Ontario. Once you get south of Smiths Falls you are in Leafs Nation. Kingston tilts towards Toronto and Cornwall tilts towards Montreal. Throw in you have many federal workers in Ottawa from all over Canada and things change depending on what party is in power.

One of my best friends promoted concerts in Ottawa in the late 70's and 80's and what is happening today does not surprise him. He told me of the panic he felt in 1978 when he had 'The Eagles' booked at Rideau Carleton Raceway and sales were sluggish until the last couple of days and it was a success. He now works in LA but has talked to the Sens marketing people and honestly feels they do not understand the matrix of the market.

Fenway, you nailed it on the head with the word "indifference". Habs are in town, our closets rival? Indifference. Karlsson a generational player playing in front of empty 40$ seats? Indifference. 2nd round of the playoffs? Indifference. I also call it apathy.

The house was also very well and consistently papered until 2 years ago, hence the nose dive. Even employees have to buy tickets nowadays. Between employees and freebies, they were probably papering 3,000 plus per game. Melnyk is actually making more money now I bet!

Still, 2373 empty seats versus the Habs is another embarrassment...and the entire city was not flooded, not even close. Just small sections for pete's sake. That number probably speaks more to how bandwagon the Habs fans are as they would have jammed the place if they were playing well!

 

[ChurchOfAlfie]

But that isn't different from any other sports venue. Every sports venue is hinged on new redevelopments of older areas, revitalization of existing areas, or the redevelopment of a new area.

True, but a couple things stand out in the Sens case.

1) This was an expansion team, not a new rink for an existing franchise. Being sandwiched between Montreal and Toronto, I think the plan was to have much more value tied up in the real estate than the franchise itself, to make up for a young franchise in a small market.

2) The scale of the proposed development was insane, especially for the lates 80's/early 90's. Rink, casino, hotel, condos, and that was just phase 1. These days that's pretty standard, but 30 years was pretty radical.

3) The ownership group basically had no money. The whole plan hinged on getting cheap farmland way west of the city to build the development and get the team. It was a franchise bought on credit.

There's a great book about the early years of the sens I read a couple years ago that goes in depth about this, but I can't remember what it's called, unfortunately.

 

[Spartachat]

Fenway, you nailed it on the head with the word "indifference". Habs are in town, our closets rival? Indifference. Karlsson a generational player playing in front of empty 40$ seats? Indifference. 2nd round of the playoffs? Indifference. I also call it apathy.

The house was also very well and consistently papered until 2 years ago, hence the nose dive. Even employees have to buy tickets nowadays. Between employees and freebies, they were probably papering 3,000 plus per game. Melnyk is actually making more money now I bet!

Still, 2373 empty seats versus the Habs is another embarrassment...and the entire city was not flooded, not even close. Just small sections for pete's sake. That number probably speaks more to how bandwagon the Habs fans are as they would have jammed the place if they were playing well!

The game vs the Habs probably didn't sell out because it was on a Monday. Weekday games don't seem to do well. In the playoffs the weekend games all sold out. If you look at the next couple of weekend games against Las Vegas, Arizona and the Islanders they are all close to sold out. I suspect the arena being far away has a lot to do with this. If the game ends at 10:30 and it takes you an hour to get out of the parking lot, you probably won't be home until past midnight. That is tough on a work night and even harder if you try to bring your kids along.

To make a comparison, if I goto a game in Montreal and park away from the arena. I can get home to Ottawa in 2 hours. If I goto a game in Ottawa it takes me 1.5 hours because of the wait in the parking lot!

 

[Fenway]

The game vs the Habs probably didn't sell out because it was on a Monday. Weekday games don't seem to do well. In the playoffs the weekend games all sold out. If you look at the next couple of weekend games against Las Vegas, Arizona and the Islanders they are all close to sold out. I suspect the arena being far away has a lot to do with this. If the game ends at 10:30 and it takes you an hour to get out of the parking lot, you probably won't be home until past midnight. That is tough on a work night and even harder if you try to bring your kids along.

To make a comparison, if I goto a game in Montreal and park away from the arena. I can get home to Ottawa in 2 hours. If I goto a game in Ottawa it takes me 1.5 hours because of the wait in the parking lot!

Can I assume that Lot 1 and Lot 4 are easier to get out of after a game?




I don't know if the bus is a viable option for fans.

 

[The Lewler]

Meh I'm down in Brockville and it's Sens territory, not Leaf nation or Hab ville.

 

[coladin]

True, but a couple things stand out in the Sens case.

1) This was an expansion team, not a new rink for an existing franchise. Being sandwiched between Montreal and Toronto, I think the plan was to have much more value tied up in the real estate than the franchise itself, to make up for a young franchise in a small market.

2) The scale of the proposed development was insane, especially for the lates 80's/early 90's. Rink, casino, hotel, condos, and that was just phase 1. These days that's pretty standard, but 30 years was pretty radical.

3) The ownership group basically had no money. The whole plan hinged on getting cheap farmland way west of the city to build the development and get the team. It was a franchise bought on credit.

There's a great book about the early years of the sens I read a couple years ago that goes in depth about this, but I can't remember what it's called, unfortunately.

1) You cannot deny the development that occurred around the CTC, whether it is an expansion team or not. Real Estate is Real Estate.

2)Yes it was!

3)Yes, they had none! I mean, real deep pockets. Rod Bryden's move is always to use other people's money, and he has made quite the career out of it.

 

[coladin]

The game vs the Habs probably didn't sell out because it was on a Monday. Weekday games don't seem to do well. In the playoffs the weekend games all sold out. If you look at the next couple of weekend games against Las Vegas, Arizona and the Islanders they are all close to sold out. I suspect the arena being far away has a lot to do with this. If the game ends at 10:30 and it takes you an hour to get out of the parking lot, you probably won't be home until past midnight. That is tough on a work night and even harder if you try to bring your kids along.

To make a comparison, if I goto a game in Montreal and park away from the arena. I can get home to Ottawa in 2 hours. If I goto a game in Ottawa it takes me 1.5 hours because of the wait in the parking lot!

Excuses, excuses. It's the Sens v Habs!

7:30 weekday game has existed since 1996 there, not sure why it is a problem now...as is parking. If you see someone running on the way out...that's me! I don't care but it works, and I get out in less than 5 minutes from Lot 2. From there it is a smooth drive home, whereas before the widening it was bumper to bumper all the way to Greenbank going east.

 

[ChurchOfAlfie]

1) You cannot deny the development that occurred around the CTC, whether it is an expansion team or not. Real Estate is Real Estate.

2)Yes it was!

3)Yes, they had none! I mean, real deep pockets. Rod Bryden's move is always to use other people's money, and he has made quite the career out of it.

I'm not denying the development that occurred around CTC, I'm just saying the Senators fate, from day one, was tied around a go for broke (literally) real estate development. People from Ottawa know the story, but for others, it explains why the rink is in such a bad location and consequently explains Ottawa's attendance issues.

 

[Spartachat]

Excuses, excuses. It's the Sens v Habs!

7:30 weekday game has existed since 1996 there, not sure why it is a problem now...as is parking. If you see someone running on the way out...that's me! I don't care but it works, and I get out in less than 5 minutes from Lot 2. From there it is a smooth drive home, whereas before the widening it was bumper to bumper all the way to Greenbank going east.

I blame the Habs fans for the low attendance of that game.

 

[Korpse]

Except most NHL teams use tickets distributed for attendance and a game with Montreal should not be counting on day of game sales.

I can't speak for other markets but Ottawa relies pretty heavily on game day sales and has for some time. I imagine the markets which have small STH bases do. 15,000 on a day where local conditions are pretty awful isn't a problem. Obviously the decline in attendance is something the organization is trying to address but the reaction to it shows how high of a standard some teams are being held to.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The game vs the Habs probably didn't sell out because it was on a Monday. Weekday games don't seem to do well. In the playoffs the weekend games all sold out. If you look at the next couple of weekend games against Las Vegas, Arizona and the Islanders they are all close to sold out. I suspect the arena being far away has a lot to do with this. If the game ends at 10:30 and it takes you an hour to get out of the parking lot, you probably won't be home until past midnight. That is tough on a work night and even harder if you try to bring your kids along.

To make a comparison, if I goto a game in Montreal and park away from the arena. I can get home to Ottawa in 2 hours. If I goto a game in Ottawa it takes me 1.5 hours because of the wait in the parking lot!

I get out of Lot 4 in 5 mins, and never leave until the final horn.

So that’s 2 of us get out in 5 mins from different lots

 

[Spartachat]

I get out of Lot 4 in 5 mins, and never leave until the final horn.

So that’s 2 of us get out in 5 mins from different lots

Lot 4 typically sells out fast and Lot 2 is for season tickets holders I believe. Try parking in lots 5, 6 or 9 and see how fast you can get out.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Lot 4 typically sells out fast and Lot 2 is for season tickets holders I believe. Try parking in lots 5, 6 or 9 and see how fast you can get out.

No thanks, I prefer to leave in 5 minutes.

 

[coladin]

I'm not denying the development that occurred around CTC, I'm just saying the Senators fate, from day one, was tied around a go for broke (literally) real estate development. People from Ottawa know the story, but for others, it explains why the rink is in such a bad location and consequently explains Ottawa's attendance issues.

True,

Lot 4 typically sells out fast and Lot 2 is for season tickets holders I believe. Try parking in lots 5, 6 or 9 and see how fast you can get out.

When I did park in those lots, I would watch the last few minutes at the top of the section nearest the stairs. It is the only way to get out ina reasonable amount of time.

 

[Smash88]

Lot 4 typically sells out fast and Lot 2 is for season tickets holders I believe. Try parking in lots 5, 6 or 9 and see how fast you can get out.

The secret to lot 9 is to park at the back, near the gates. Park close to the road out, and you get out in minutes. It is a longer walk to and from your car but it's quick once you get to it.

If you go too deep towards the buses it takes forever to get out.

 

[Masked]

I blame the Habs fans for the low attendance of that game.

The ticket prices are set for them. Why should Senator fans pay a huge premium just because it is the Habs? They're there to see the Senators.

When the Habs and Leafs are doing poorly, their fans stop showing up to games in Ottawa.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Can I assume that Lot 1 and Lot 4 are easier to get out of after a game?


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I don't know if the bus is a viable option for fans.

the bus is not a viable option, but for most, its the only option. East enders like myself have an 90 to 120 minute ride in store to see a game. for a working person that means no games on week nights.

 

[Spartachat]

I remember way back before I moved to Ottawa, I came to town on a trip and stayed downtown. I looked into going to a hockey game, but then found out how far the arena was and just scrapped the plans. I did not want to navigate the buses when I was unfamiliar with the city and a cab would have been quite costly all the way to the CTC.

 

[Killion]

I remember way back before I moved to Ottawa, I came to town on a trip and stayed downtown. I looked into going to a hockey game, but then found out how far the arena was and just scrapped the plans. I did not want to navigate the buses when I was unfamiliar with the city and a cab would have been quite costly all the way to the CTC.

I remember (fondly) visiting Ottawa in the early to mid-60's, had an Uncle & his family who lived there, visiting the various museums & other attractions of which there were many and of course, skating on the Rideau Canal. Over the years that followed I had several occasions to return on business, and I distinctly remember having a "real real bad feeling" about the choice of land way in the Hell out in rural Kanata for the arena & grand development plans that came with.... reminding me very much of the debacle that was Richfield Coliseum outside of Cleveland... and knowing Ottawa not really all that well but well enough that that location was going to become a major problem after the Honeymoon had worn off.... a desperate move made by short pocketed wannabe NHL owners who really had no other choice given the then hefty $50M Expansion Fee, I for one was skeptical..... That either the team would eventually go BK (which it did) and wind up moving out of the region altogether or that maybe somehow someway they could hang on just long enough (20yrs) to graciously exit Kanata & get it together with a new facility downtown (or more immediate environs) where they had a fighting chance.

Ottawa is just not that wealthy a market, there are in fact all kinds of things to do there that either dont cost much of anything at all or if they do cost, a lot less than an NHL game & a 3-5hr time commitment. People there as is the case with Seattle, Vancouver & elsewhere are fairly active, into participatory sports & other leisure activities (dining out, concerts, theater, skiing, boating, cottaging etc) & thats where their going to spend their discretionary dollars. Its also transient. High level (read wealthy) civil servants & lobbyists etc, those buying tickets are in most cases from elsewhere. Loyalties formed during their formative years be it Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton or Vancouver. These people are often in Ottawa on Contract for 2-4-6yrs, sometimes longer, but when the Contracts up or they retire, they dont generally stick around. Back to wherever. Private corporate sector in Ottawa nowhere near what were talkin in comparison to elsewhere; rules forbidding governmental agencies patronage.... well, a lot of obstacles. Tricky market. However, all that being said, totally confident that once relo'd back into the city & civilization these problems will mostly evaporate. Locations' been a killer since inception, literally that country farm dog that chases cars down dusty roads and in this case.... keeps nipping at the franchises heel's. The dog doesnt want to catch the car or franchise, it simply wants you to go away, go back to town where you belong.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Karl Eriksson]

They put the extra 1,500 seats at TD place for the outdoor game