Senators removing about 1500 seat from the Canadian Tire Centre

ottawah

Registered User
Jan 7, 2011
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605
I understand. I just don't think the income issue is the deciding factor. At the same time as income growth has slowed, Melnyk has spent less and less on the team, and the two biggest stars in franchise history (before Karlsson) have left, and besides EK there really hasn't been anything to attract fans. Like I said, it's a lot easier to decide tickets aren't worth the money when the team isn't very fun to watch and the arena isn't very close.
Ottawa has lost its biggest stars before and went in the tank and attendance never did this.
 

Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,590
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Ottawa has lost its biggest stars before and went in the tank and attendance never did this.

None as big as Spezza and Alifie. Yashin, Hossa, Heatley all pale in comparison.

Hopefully the govt cans solve the payroll fiasco for its employees soon.

govt employees can't accept free tickets, like they are given away like candy in Toronto, thru businesses.

Yes, the fact they can't accept free tickets is a problem but it's never going to change no should it. It's an anti-corruption measure.

Besides, the pay isn't a fiasco. Income growth for federal employees may have been slow the past decade, but "fiasco" implies they're not paid well. They are. Much better than people doing similar work at charities and NGOs, higher than the national median income, and to be honest not much less than the private sector. Sure, highly skilled workers make much more, but it's not like a government employee is making $40,000 when their counter part is making $140,000. Closer to $70,000 to $90,000. Non salary perks make up for the salary gap in most cases (I have a friend who left the gov. for 3-4 years to take a job at the World Bank and when he wanted to come back to Ottawa to start a family his old position was waiting for him).
 

ottawah

Registered User
Jan 7, 2011
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605
Closer to $70,000 to $90,000. Non salary perks make up for the salary gap in most cases

They make up for the gap, but its still not cash in fist. I'm not saying civil servants are hard done by, quite the opposite (as I can make a good amount more in the private sector and did), just that the pay coming into my account is noticeably smaller, and hence gives me less discretionary income.

70K minus pension payments is 48K after tax. 90K private sector is 67K after tax.

That 19K buys a lot of Sens tickets. Thats a take home increase of 40%. I like my pension, but does does not kick in right now. I like my vacation time, but thats another drag on my discretionary income. Perks are nice, but do come with an out of pocket cost.

I agree Ottawa has very high average and median salaries, but that is largely driven by government paying much higher than average national wages for traditionally low paying jobs, and noticeably less for the highest paying jobs cutting out the big paydy earners that are your normal ticket base in other cities. If you look at those families in the 200k+ range of salary, you will find Ottawa has fewer of them than all other Canadian cities other than Winnipeg, which has already lost an NHL team and has a small rink, not coincidentally the same size as people are proposing for the Ottawa rink.
 

Field of Dreams

Registered User
Oct 10, 2011
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Port Credit
I love driving out to Ottawa to catch games when the leafs are in the Canadian Tire Centre. So as much as it pains me to say it, I think its time we move the team to a city with a more compatible fan base.
 

Fenway

HF Bookie and Bruins Historian
Sponsor
Sep 26, 2007
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I love driving out to Ottawa to catch games when the leafs are in the Canadian Tire Centre. So as much as it pains me to say it, I think its time we move the team to a city with a more compatible fan base.

Your post captures the Senators marketing dilemma perfectly. The Sens footprint is very tiny as once you pass Smiths Falls to the south and Arnprior to the west Leafs Nation takes hold. To the north and east they have to deal with Montreal.

Moving the AHL team to Belleville may help a little :dunno: but what I have observed is that Kingston the Sens are the third NHL team of interest after Toronto and Montreal.

Still unclear is how TSN5 will handle conflicts on nights the Sens and Montreal are playing and there is no national telecast. It is a safe bet that TSN will beam Montreal into Atlantic Canada over the Sens and while TSN will offer a TSN Sens channel there is no guarantee that Atlantic Canada cable outlets would carry it. TSN also knows that most anglophones in Quebec will continue to watch on French RDS.

Will the tarps in Kanata stay in place when Toronto and Montreal come to town? :popcorn:
 

Masked

(Super/star)
Apr 16, 2017
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Still unclear is how TSN5 will handle conflicts on nights the Sens and Montreal are playing and there is no national telecast. It is a safe bet that TSN will beam Montreal into Atlantic Canada over the Sens and while TSN will offer a TSN Sens channel there is no guarantee that Atlantic Canada cable outlets would carry it. TSN also knows that most anglophones in Quebec will continue to watch on French RDS.


The regional games for Montreal will all air on TSN2 in Montreal's broadcast region, with the exception of those against Ottawa which will air on TSN5.
 

ottawah

Registered User
Jan 7, 2011
3,469
605
Note backing up my assertion that the last decade in Ottawa has been terrible on the pay,

http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/09/18...s-shows-about-our-relative-decline-in-incomes

In terms of salary, and notably upper end salaries, Ottawa has lagged heavily over the last decade. Income lag will have an effect, but notably more so in the smaller markets, and with Calgary and Edmonton coming out on top, great for them.

I still assert that the data shows the location is far less an issue than the lack of wage growth over the last 10 years in explaining why attendance has been falling.
 

danielpalfredsson

youtube dot com /watch?v=CdqMZ_s7Y6k
Aug 14, 2013
16,575
9,269
Ottawa has lost its biggest stars before and went in the tank and attendance never did this.

The Senators mostly stopped papering in 16-17.

This isn't me discounting that interest in the team or paid attendance couldn't possibly be down, but you can't make a fair comparison to past attendance numbers without knowing how much was paid attendance and how much was papered. Unfortunately, we don't have those numbers.

Anecdotally, tickets went up by a dramatic amount in price on the secondary market this season. I used to be able to get tickets to some B and C level games (Off the top of my head Wild, Capitals, Kings, Tampa) for on average 10 CAD all in on stubhub. These were usually either 300 center, or 300 near center. Starting this year, the cheapest I was able to find tickets on Stubhub was around 30 bucks all in per ticket. I went to I think two games, and they both worked out that the tickets were about half off box office prices. Keep in mind, I kept an eye on Stubhub leading to each game and the tickets never seemed to budge much.

Whether that is because of papering, or the switch to Ticket Master somehow effecting the secondary market, I don't know. My guess would be less papering in general increasing the demand and driving up the prices on Stubhub.
 

CorbeauNoir

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
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For those complaining the arena is too far away, how long does it usually take to get to the arena? Google Maps says it is about 20 mins from Parliament Hill even in rush hour?

If you happen to be starting your trip from Parliament Hill, sure.

Facilities like CTC are built on outdated planning concepts; built in a location chosen for some short-term political and/or financial convenience with little consideration for the disproportionate travel times it creates or the lack of alternate transport options it provides. Even Calgary of all places understood the logistical value of a centrally-located facility with direct LRT access over 30 years ago so why the everyone-takes-their-own-car-to-the-game approach still happens decades later even in places that claim to be oh so environmentally conscientious is beyond me.
 

DowntownBooster

Registered User
Jun 21, 2011
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Winnipeg
I agree Ottawa has very high average and median salaries, but that is largely driven by government paying much higher than average national wages for traditionally low paying jobs, and noticeably less for the highest paying jobs cutting out the big paydy earners that are your normal ticket base in other cities. If you look at those families in the 200k+ range of salary, you will find Ottawa has fewer of them than all other Canadian cities other than Winnipeg, which has already lost an NHL team and has a small rink, not coincidentally the same size as people are proposing for the Ottawa rink.


ottawah, I'm not sure what you're trying to infer in regards to the portion of your comments that I highlighted. If you're suggesting that it's a mistake for Ottawa to reduce the seating capacity then I would respectfully disagree with you. Not all markets are like Toronto with a population that warrants an arena with over 19,000 seats. In my opinion it would make sense for Toronto to have the biggest arena in Canada instead of Montreal since Toronto is the country's largest city. However, even though they could have built an arena seating 22,000 based on their population, they are quite okay with less than that.

Winnipeg could have built a larger building with more seats than what BellMTS Place holds but the Jets ownership believes that having the current capacity works best for the size of our market. It's much easier to create a demand for tickets when there are fewer tickets available to purchase. It also means you can charge a higher amount for those tickets.

The Senators have had issues trying to fill their building due to its large seating capacity. As a result they have had to spend large amounts on advertising in efforts to get those seats filled. Having less seats to fill requires less money needed to be spent on advertising. I think it's smart for Ottawa to reduce the number of seats to help create a demand for tickets. It's not a knock against the people of Ottawa but rather a recognition that it's not a huge city like Toronto and it's harder to fill a large building on a consistent basis.

It would seem there are also other cities in both Canada and the United States that have built facilities for hockey, football and basketball that are too large for their particular market. Not all markets are equal to Toronto or New York and do not require facilities to match them.

In regards to your comments about Winnipeg having lost an NHL team and that it has a small rink, I wish you would expound on what you are trying to conclude by that and how it ties in with the situation in Ottawa. I do know that BellMTS Place actually has less seats than the Winnipeg Arena did but the Jets are on much more solid financial footing than the previous team ever was.

:jets
 
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DudeWhereIsMakar

Bergevin sent me an offer sheet
Apr 25, 2014
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ottawah, I'm not sure what you're trying to infer in regards to the portion of your comments that I highlighted. If you're suggesting that it's a mistake for Ottawa to reduce the seating capacity then I would respectfully disagree with you. Not all markets are like Toronto with a population that warrants an arena with over 19,000 seats. In my opinion it would make sense for Toronto to have the biggest arena in Canada instead of Montreal since Toronto is the country's largest city. However, even though they could have built an arena seating 22,000 based on their population, they are quite okay with less than that.

Winnipeg could have built a larger building with more seats than what BellMTS Place holds but the Jets ownership believes that having the current capacity works best for the size of our market. It's much easier to create a demand for tickets when there are fewer tickets available to purchase. It also means you can charge a higher amount for those tickets.

The Senators have had issues trying to fill their building due to its large seating capacity. As a result they have had to spend large amounts on advertising in efforts to get those seats filled. Having less seats to fill requires less money needed to be spent on advertising. I think it's smart for Ottawa to reduce the number of seats to help create a demand for tickets. It's not a knock against the people of Ottawa but rather a recognition that it's not a huge city like Toronto and it's harder to fill a large building on a consistent basis.

It would seem there are also other cities in both Canada and the United States that have built facilities for hockey, football and basketball that are too large for their particular market. Not all markets are equal to Toronto or New York and do not require facilities to match them.

In regards to your comments about Winnipeg having lost an NHL team and that it has a small rink, I wish you would expound on what you are trying to conclude by that and how it ties in with the situation in Ottawa. I do know that BellMTS Place actually has less seats than the Winnipeg Arena did but the Jets are on much more solid financial footing than the previous team ever was.

:jets

Exactly how Candy Crush works.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
16,384
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I think for a franchise to work in a small-ish Canadian market you need to have a high level of local loyalty to the team. I mean any comparison to Phoenix kinda falls flat if you consider that in the broadest sense the Ottawa region has about a quarter of the population of the Phoenix metro. But there could of course be some similarities. In both cases, you have a lot of people there who aren't *from* there and may have already existing loyalties. Phoenix is a Sun Belt destination, Ottawa a government town. But in Ottawa's case you can add the fact that even a lot people from there already were fans of other, more prestigious teams. In Phoenix the problem is more that a whole lot of people *from* there just don't give a damn about hockey.
 
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Masked

(Super/star)
Apr 16, 2017
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The arena is 20 minutes by car or 1 hour by train away from Ottawa. That's the problem!

The arena is in Ottawa so saying it is X many minutes away from Ottawa is stupid. Also there's no train to the arena so don't say what the problem is when you're ignorant about the topic.
 

blueandgoldguy

Registered User
Oct 8, 2010
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Greg's River Heights
Even with the recent downsizing it looks like selling out will be a struggle. Tomorrow's opener against the Caps still appears to have 1500 -2000 blue dots available with many in the lower bowl. Saturday's game against Detroit probably has 5000 or more seats still available. Even with the run to the conference finals last year it appears the team has not improved their season ticket base...maybe it even declined further?:dunno:
 

Pierre from Orleans

Registered User
May 9, 2007
26,095
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There are a slew of reasons for attendance issues.

Its unfortunate but given the circumstances it's understandable. Just need much more time to build a fanbase given the position they are in
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion
Apr 30, 2004
32,442
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I thought this was a very good article. Here are some key points.

Professional sports leagues like the NHL use a model to assess potential corporate supporters — companies with at least $5 million in sales and 25 employees are considered able to afford NHL season tickets. On this basis, Ottawa is the smallest corporate entity in the league with about 900 suitable businesses. Winnipeg, by comparison, has more than 1,700 companies from which to draw, a source says.

The Senators only get about half their season ticket support (roughly 4,000 of an estimated 8,000 season ticket holders) from corporate outlets. In the Greater Toronto Area, the Maple Leafs have the luxury of tying up about 80 per cent of their season ticket sales (roughly 13,000 of 16,000) from corporations. The massive population of the GTA fights over the remaining tickets like chickens chasing feed.

Some other points mentioned - Size, gov't restrictions, location, chronic fatigue syndrome (owner, parking, misc costs)

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ors-attendance-issues-in-a-challenging-market
 

FuriousSenator

Registered User
Mar 18, 2011
1,970
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Ottawa
Apparently the Rough Riders are really popular in Ottawa or some such nonsense.

I'd argue and continue to argue that games are more fun to attend at TD Place.

People on here love to snipe the CFL too, but the secret is a TON of people love it and it makes sense to me that there seems to be a correlation between this recent attendance depression and the rise of the Redblacks in the city.

People in a small market only have so much money to throw around to support their teams - I think a lot of old 'Sens' money is now going to the Redblacks/Fury.
 

branch

#GirlBoss #Vibes
Jan 12, 2008
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Bunch of people that don't live in Ottawa lecturing Ottawa residents about what it's like to commute to our desolate arena in this thread. It's good.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,345
59,248
Ottawa, ON
Most people attending NHL games don't live downtown in most cities.

The nice thing about downtown is that it's a fairly equal distance from all areas of the city and the traffic is distributed among the various transportation channels.

As it is, 95% of Senators fans live east of the rink and there's one major road

Downtown is also usually a hub for restaurants, bars and nightlife which people can attend before and after games.
 

branch

#GirlBoss #Vibes
Jan 12, 2008
8,837
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Fact of the matter is that going to Kanata from ANYWHERE east (the entire city) sucks so bad. The fanbase is tired of this shitshow circus that commuting there entails. Until you live in Ottawa and have sat in gridlock trying to get in or out, or pissed your pants on a bus because your bladder is full of beer and the bus takes 2 hours to get anywhere, you shouldn't comment. Team would sell out every game at Lebreton.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,803
21,006
Melynk explained it well on PT sports with Bob Cat. They were not good seats anyway and were barely being used. I was more interested in the possibility of having a new arena downtown. As a fan that has seen a game in Kanata, it was not so bad. The area is nice IMO. But having a downtown area would be a logical move if they can swing by the red tape of federal workers attending.
 
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