Prospect Info: Senators Prospect Talk 2014-2015 Part I

[Micklebot]

The point is that JT still had that elite vision when he was 18 and still only put up 4 assists, as when he was 24! Vision is one of the few things that you cannot really work on too much.
There are a multitude of factors that determine if a player will produce in the NHL. It's the same thing with DaCosta. People like Bianca and Banstreetparade point to DaCosta as not having elite vision based solely on his stats, that's a ridiculously simplistic and wrong way of looking at it.

Stat watchers are obvious.


I'm not saying that DaCosta will be a star and put up elite assist stats and that he should be our #1C. But only that he has elite vision which our forward corps is lacking, and that if if he was managed better last year, he could have been a productive fixture in our top 9 this year.

I'd agree that DaCosta has very good vision and that's certainly a strength for him (kind an abstract concept btw) but saying elite based on how he performed in the AHL and NHL is probably a stretch (i've watched none of his KHL work, so I can't comment on that).

I guess it comes down to how you qualify elite I suppose, but when I think of elite vision, I think of guess who show themselves to be on another level from their peers. I just don't get that feeling from him. Very good, yes. Potentially the best vision on our team outside of Karlsson, but I wouldn't say elite myself.

 

[aragorn]

I wonder if D. Grant will get another opportunity in Ottawa, I noticed in the Sunday game against the Marlies that Luke seems to use him in all kinds of situations. He plays on the PP & PK & he takes offensive & defensive zone faceoffs. Grant led the AHL in short handed goals last yr, he is a defensive specialist but can also contribute on the scoreboard in an offensive role. And I haven`t even mentioned yet that he is 6`3" so he also has good size & he hits.

 

[operasen]

I wonder if D. Grant will get another opportunity in Ottawa, I noticed in the Sunday game against the Marlies that Luke seems to use him in all kinds of situations. He plays on the PP & PK & he takes offensive & defensive zone faceoffs. Grant led the AHL in short handed goals last yr, he is a defensive specialist but can also contribute on the scoreboard in an offensive role. And I haven`t even mentioned yet that he is 6`3" so he also has good size & he hits.

Soon as we create space by moving Smith and Legwand we might see him. I guess that's next year, unless a miracle happens in the next weeks.

 

[Six Assets]

Grant could replace condra when he walks.

 

[Xspyrit]

Soon as we create space by moving Smith and Legwand we might see him. I guess that's next year, unless a miracle happens in the next weeks.

I know Smith is out of flavor now but what's wrong with Legwand? He's actually a good veteran to have around and I'm pretty sure he will play his 2 years with the Sens unless they can get a decent return for him... I really don't get the "unless a miracle happens in the next "

What's the obsession with having the most rookies and young players as possible in the line-up? The chances that Derek Grant becomes 1/3 of the player Legwand was or even 1/2 of what Legwand still is are extremely small. Let's call that the HF obsession.

Stone, Hoffman, Ceci, Lazar, Pageau, Prince, Borowiecki are the rookies this year, and we're not even talking about young players like Zibanejad, Chiasson, Cowen or Wiercioch. I don't think I have ever seen as many rookies and inexperienced players on the same NHL team before

Our veterans are guys like Turris, Karlsson and Ryan... lol

 

[operasen]

I know Smith is out of flavor now but what's wrong with Legwand? He's actually a good veteran to have around and I'm pretty sure he will play his 2 years with the Sens unless they can get a decent return for him... I really don't get the "unless a miracle happens in the next "

I actually think Legwand has a place on the roster, but have issues as to where coach uses him. He is not maximized and I think would garner a good return from a Winnipeg type of team.

As to Karlsson and Ryan as the new "vets" - that's the team Murray has built. Its way young in the experience department. These guys are asked to play veteran roles and have veteran results - without the time required to become veteran personalities. It must be tough on them.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I actually think Legwand has a place on the roster, but have issues as to where coach uses him. He is not maximized and I think would garner a good return from a Winnipeg type of team.

As to Karlsson and Ryan as the new "vets" - that's the team Murray has built. Its way young in the experience department. These guys are asked to play veteran roles and have veteran results - without the time required to become veteran personalities. It must be tough on them.

Ryan asked for this and it was rumored he wanted it since his time in Anaheim. He wants to be a leader and be known as a great ottawa senator just as hes known for being one of the best Owen Sound players ever to play.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I actually think Legwand has a place on the roster, but have issues as to where coach uses him. He is not maximized and I think would garner a good return from a Winnipeg type of team.

As to Karlsson and Ryan as the new "vets" - that's the team Murray has built. Its way young in the experience department. These guys are asked to play veteran roles and have veteran results - without the time required to become veteran personalities. It must be tough on them.

Lol veteran personalities. Ryan isn't a kid. Nor is karlsson. Nor is MacArthur. They are our vets. And have a much bigger influence on our players and our games than Neil and Phillips and legwand.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Lol veteran personalities. Ryan isn't a kid. Nor is karlsson. Nor is MacArthur. They are our vets. And have a much bigger influence on our players and our games than Neil and Phillips and legwand.

Well, there is your opinion on the matter, with your vast experience on leadership and influence in the NHL....

And then there are the opinions of players, management, hockey insiders, etc... Who seem to think that these types of players have a large impact on other players.

I get that you want everyone over 30 off the team, and a bunch of youngsters brought up, but why not just stick to what you can see on the ice to support your arguments, because really, that is all that any of us have.

The leadership angle that you're coming from is completely baseless and devoid of any factual support or experience from your end, and as evidenced by its seeming importance to virtually all teams in the league, there is much documented support to the contrary. Even from players themselves, who you seem to feel you know better than.

It's not about being kids, it's about games played, history and lore to pass on, it's about managing a pro career, it's about balancing relationships, family, kids, with being a pro. It's like tossing away your grandparents because you have parents. I mean what could those old-timers possibly have to offer anyways!

I just don't get it, stick to what you can see to base your arguments on.

 

[God Says No]

Well, there is your opinion on the matter, with your vast experience on leadership and influence in the NHL....

And then there are the opinions of players, management, hockey insiders, etc... Who seem to think that these types of players have a large impact on other players.

I get that you want everyone over 30 off the team, and a bunch of youngsters brought up, but why not just stick to what you can see on the ice to support your arguments, because really, that is all that any of us have.

The leadership angle that you're coming from is completely baseless and devoid of any factual support or experience from your end, and as evidenced by its seeming importance to virtually all teams in the league, there is much documented support to the contrary. Even from players themselves, who you seem to feel you know better than.

It's not about being kids, it's about games played, history and lore to pass on, it's about managing a pro career, it's about balancing relationships, family, kids, with being a pro. It's like tossing away your grandparents because you have parents. I mean what could those old-timers possibly have to offer anyways!

I just don't get it, stick to what you can see to base your arguments on.

Funny. I'd love to see all this "factual support" of veterans over a certain age being better for younger players. It seems to me like you are basing this on your own opinion as well.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Well, there is your opinion on the matter, with your vast experience on leadership and influence in the NHL....

And then there are the opinions of players, management, hockey insiders, etc... Who seem to think that these types of players have a large impact on other players.

I get that you want everyone over 30 off the team, and a bunch of youngsters brought up, but why not just stick to what you can see on the ice to support your arguments, because really, that is all that any of us have.

The leadership angle that you're coming from is completely baseless and devoid of any factual support or experience from your end, and as evidenced by its seeming importance to virtually all teams in the league, there is much documented support to the contrary. Even from players themselves, who you seem to feel you know better than.

It's not about being kids, it's about games played, history and lore to pass on, it's about managing a pro career, it's about balancing relationships, family, kids, with being a pro. It's like tossing away your grandparents because you have parents. I mean what could those old-timers possibly have to offer anyways!

I just don't get it, stick to what you can see to base your arguments on.

Wasn't a story just released on how Ryan helped zibanejad this season? I saw that. With my eyes.
Zibanejad wasn't like "yeah oh yeah Neil jumped me in practice. Taught me about life maaaan"

Again. For the probably thousandth time. Veterans are ABSOLUTLY necessary. Without a doubt in my mind you absolutely need players with experience. I'm not against veterans. Nor am I against keeping people above thirty. MacArthur is almost thirty. I wanna keep him. Anderson,above thirty. I wanna keep him. (After seeing his return might not be astronomical, dreams die).

Methot! Almost thirty I hope to keep him for the duration of this contract.

What can Neil and Phillips offer. That MacArthur Ryan and methot can't. Seriously. Don't say "uh well they went to a cup final". That doesn't suddenly make you some wise old grizzled vet.
"We need this Neil we need Phillips." Okay. We have Neil. We have Phillips. Would we be worse without them. That's my question. That's my question. Are we worse. Without those two. Do they help our young players so much that we would be worse without them. Is there advice or "leadership" so much better than that of Ryan's and macarthurs and methots that without them. Our young players wouldn't learn or would miss out on crucial skill building. That's my question.

 

[Xspyrit]

I actually think Legwand has a place on the roster, but have issues as to where coach uses him. He is not maximized and I think would garner a good return from a Winnipeg type of team.

As to Karlsson and Ryan as the new "vets" - that's the team Murray has built. Its way young in the experience department. These guys are asked to play veteran roles and have veteran results - without the time required to become veteran personalities. It must be tough on them.

Ok I see and yes Legwand could be even more productive (45-50 pts pace) if he was played on a more offensive role with more skilled players. But right now he has a decent scoring pace (~35 pts) playing in a defensive role. That being said, I agree with that because it's evident that the offensive opportunities are given to more important players for the future in Zibanejad and Turris.

And Karlsson and Ryan are elite/high end players, they are also leaders and great teammates, they can take this on their shoulders. No worries. Just have to keep on developing more supporting cast and find another high end player (forward) like them

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Ryan.

Goes to the media saying he would love to play with Hoffman because he thinks Hoff is a great talent.

Hoffman starts playing with Ryan and breaks out.

Zibby goes to the media thanking Ryan for helping him get into a groove.

Ryan asks for leader role in the summer. Has discussion with MacLean about taking over and teaching younger players.

Ryan was rumored to want an increased role in Anaheim.


....Ya Ryan is pressure from the increased role that was thrust upon him.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I wonder if D. Grant will get another opportunity in Ottawa, I noticed in the Sunday game against the Marlies that Luke seems to use him in all kinds of situations. He plays on the PP & PK & he takes offensive & defensive zone faceoffs. Grant led the AHL in short handed goals last yr, he is a defensive specialist but can also contribute on the scoreboard in an offensive role. And I haven`t even mentioned yet that he is 6`3" so he also has good size & he hits.

I think he will. I believe Grant still has great 4th or 3rd line C potential whether with us or another team.

He was really really good holding down our number 4 spot last year and terrific pk guy.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Funny. I'd love to see all this "factual support" of veterans over a certain age being better for younger players. It seems to me like you are basing this on your own opinion as well.

The point I was making was that there was no evidence to argue that they were not valuable leaders and veteran presences, and that it's unlikely that they could just be replaced with 20 somthing players. I wasn't arguing from a place of fact, more from a place that his position was absent of fact.

However, veteran presence, and leadership on and off the ice, are tenants in the NHL that have been accepted as fact in the NHL. These are things that Players, and management (many who have been players) agree exists. O

Wasn't a story just released on how Ryan helped zibanejad this season? I saw that. With my eyes.
Zibanejad wasn't like "yeah oh yeah Neil jumped me in practice. Taught me about life maaaan"

Again. For the probably thousandth time. Veterans are ABSOLUTLY necessary. Without a doubt in my mind you absolutely need players with experience. I'm not against veterans. Nor am I against keeping people above thirty. MacArthur is almost thirty. I wanna keep him. Anderson,above thirty. I wanna keep him. (After seeing his return might not be astronomical, dreams die).

Methot! Almost thirty I hope to keep him for the duration of this contract.

What can Neil and Phillips offer. That MacArthur Ryan and methot can't. Seriously. Don't say "uh well they went to a cup final". That doesn't suddenly make you some wise old grizzled vet.
"We need this Neil we need Phillips." Okay. We have Neil. We have Phillips. Would we be worse without them. That's my question. That's my question. Are we worse. Without those two. Do they help our young players so much that we would be worse without them. Is there advice or "leadership" so much better than that of Ryan's and macarthurs and methots that without them. Our young players wouldn't learn or would miss out on crucial skill building. That's my question.

Ryan is certainly important, as is EK, none of that precludes the importance and influence of guys like Neil, Legwand, and Phillips. I'm not arguing the level to which they are, but I am arguing that they likely provide different things to the team, and are not easily replaceable by young players who have played a fraction of their games.

It's too easy to write things off as unimportant when we really have no idea what they are and to what degree.

Maybe it's because I'm in my 30's, am much happier and smarter than I was in my 20's, and getting ornery towards all of you 20 somethings who think they know everything, and can just up and replace the older guys...

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The point I was making was that there was no evidence to argue that they were not valuable leaders and veteran presences, and that it's unlikely that they could just be replaced with 20 somthing players. I wasn't arguing from a place of fact, more from a place that his position was absent of fact.

However, veteran presence, and leadership on and off the ice, are tenants in the NHL that have been accepted as fact in the NHL. These are things that Players, and management (many who have been players) agree exists. O



Ryan is certainly important, as is EK, none of that precludes the importance and influence of guys like Neil, Legwand, and Phillips. I'm not arguing the level to which they are, but I am arguing that they likely provide different things to the team, and are not easily replaceable by young players who have played a fraction of their games.

It's too easy to write things off as unimportant when we really have no idea what they are and to what degree.

Maybe it's because I'm in my 30's, am much happier and smarter than I was in my 20's, and getting ornery towards all of you 20 somethings who think they know everything, and can just up and replace the older guys...

I'm not saying I know more than you Or any other 30 year old. I'm saying Ryan MacArthur and methot and karlsson are as much a help. If not more if a help to our young players than Phillips and Neil. That'l is my point. My point is not that I want to be Edmonton. Or that people over thirty should all just go away.

To counter your point with a question. Where is the evidence that the ARE effective leaders. Not "players". Leaders. Where is the evidence that they've greatly helped any player. In any way. I'm not insulting them. I actually want to know

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'm not saying I know more than you Or any other 30 year old. I'm saying Ryan MacArthur and methot and karlsson are as much a help. If not more if a help to our young players than Phillips and Neil. That'l is my point. My point is not that I want to be Edmonton. Or that people over thirty should all just go away.

To counter your point with a question. Where is the evidence that the ARE effective leaders. Not "players". Leaders. Where is the evidence that they've greatly helped any player. In any way. I'm not insulting them. I actually want to know

I was just teasing you

Players and management generally speak of the older vets as being valuable members of the team, every team. Players and media types talk over the years about how important they are.

There is very little shared specific evidence that any player helps any other player at all, because the guys generally don't talk about that stuff. We do hear about it from management when they sign these guys, and given their relationship with the team, probably know what they're talking about.

Phillips taking Lazar in, or Alfie with EK, are examples of the types of off ice mentorship that occurs that are important to players. There is a lot of information and experience packed into 17 years and 1000+ games, that guys like Ryan and EK just don't have. There is ton of rough stuff and motivating smashery that Neil has to share, especially with the guys who like to hit and drop the gloves sometimes.

I find it especially disingenuous that you continue to boil Neil's influence down to a fight at practice. One which you have no context about at all to boot. It doesn't come across as clever, it comes across as lazy.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I was just teasing you

Players and management generally speak of the older vets as being valuable members of the team, every team. Players and media types talk over the years about how important they are.

There is very little shared specific evidence that any player helps any other player at all, because the guys generally don't talk about that stuff. We do hear about it from management when they sign these guys, and given their relationship with the team, probably know what they're talking about.

Phillips taking Lazar in, or Alfie with EK, are examples of the types of off ice mentorship that occurs that are important to players. There is a lot of information and experience packed into 17 years and 1000+ games, that guys like Ryan and EK just don't have. There is ton of rough stuff and motivating smashery that Neil has to share, especially with the guys who like to hit and drop the gloves sometimes.

I find it especially disingenuous that you continue to boil Neil's influence down to a fight at practice. One which you have no context about at all to boot. It doesn't come across as clever, it comes across as lazy.

Me continuing to go back to that is a half joke. It's been more than one fight though. And more than one uncalled for hit. And more on top of that.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Me continuing to go back to that is a half joke. It's been more than one fight though. And more than one uncalled for hit. And more on top of that.

I figured that's why...

 

[starling]

Da Costa was a healthy scratch today in KHL. Bust.
Probably has something to do with the fact that CSKA won the regular season title already.

 

[Six Assets]

too bad Da Costa wasn't treated like hoffman was. He was a gem.

 

[HSF]

too bad Da Costa wasn't treated like hoffman was. He was a gem.

if he stayed i am sure he would have been having almost 50 games isnt bad

 

[bornNraised Sens]

too bad Da Costa wasn't treated like hoffman was. He was a gem.

Didn't Hoffman accept a two way 1 year deal to prove himself this year?
Didn't SDC decline a two way deal as he thought he had proven himself but had not really proven much at NHL level?

I might be mixing things up but looks like they were treated pretty much the same there and SDC chased more money as he thought he was better compared to what management felt.

 

[Xspyrit]

What some people don't understand is that the posters defending Neil and Phillips are not saying WE NEED them, they are just saying that it doesn't change much in the big picture if they play in Ottawa in a diminished role for a low UFA salary (2M$ is below the NHL's average salary, kinda low for UFA years). Both of them took multiple discounts to stay with the Sens and have played ALL their career here, left a lot of blood on the ice. If there's one thing they can actually transfer is the sense of belonging to the Ottawa Senators, a young franchise without a lot of history (nobody was alive at the beginning of the 20th century). Having them as mentors for young guys while the team is rebuilding shouldn't be seen as a bad thing...

Didn't Hoffman accept a two way 1 year deal to prove himself this year?
Didn't SDC decline a two way deal as he thought he had proven himself but had not really proven much at NHL level?

I might be mixing things up but looks like they were treated pretty much the same there and SDC chased more money as he thought he was better compared to what management felt.

Yup. It has been said 10 thousand times but still...

Hoffman was ready to prove himself again. Da Costa wanted money right away

 

[starling]

Prospects update: http://senators.nhl.com/v2/ext/Prospects_updates/Prospect update_Feb 17.pdf