ToMaLe
Registered User
With the cap struggles Leafs are in, I am fine not burning a year of ELC. The Leafs are going to need that in coming years. But Kivihalme should be playing over Marincin.
Recalled/Assigned: Sandin loaned to Sweden and Wins Best Defenseman Award
- Thread starter stickty111
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Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
The difference would frankly be humongous. Marincin's lack of puck skills sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm also not personally a fan of trying to preserve one year of an ELC when we're trying to win now and doing that is risky. I'd much rather have to re-sign Sandin when he's had Less of a chance to develop and earn a larger cap hit.
Menzinger
Kessel4LadyByng
I think theres less risk in burning that elc than folks think. Rfa D men rarely get monstrous contracts.
Hes also not going to get pp time, so wont put up huge numbers to justify a big contract anyways. Getting him locked up on a long term rfa deal sooner rather than later may even be an advantage for the team
Hes also not going to get pp time, so wont put up huge numbers to justify a big contract anyways. Getting him locked up on a long term rfa deal sooner rather than later may even be an advantage for the team
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Wafflewhipper
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To this i thought it best he continued development with the Marlies for his good and it gives a extra year of Elc contract. Win win foe everyone.he can be called up before playoffs and still a win win also.
Great young player and if they call him up tomorrow i am still good with that also.
stickty111
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Lilly is pretty much a Ceci deal away from being a call up. He's ready but will need to wait a little longer.
Hopefully now that he's back they can call up Liljegren
Its not your fault
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stickty111
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Kamiccolo
Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
ULF_55
Moderator
Jesus christ. We're really going to do this "Rielly vs Sandin" thing. 
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. This forum just is absolutely convinced you can only have one good player at each position.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. This forum just is absolutely convinced you can only have one good player at each position.
Dayjobdave
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They asked him if Willie took him for any Swedish food, and who paid. Seriously.
He says he sees himself as a two way defender, taking it one day at a time, just trying to contribute to the team and happy to be here.
TDotMassive
Registered User
Agree... when healthy Muzzin has been our best D in the d-zone by a long country mile. Nobody else on the team brings the toughness and defensive elements he does. You can see how badly we have missed him recently... resigning Muzzin to a 3-4 year deal should be top priority for Dubas in the offseason.
The Iceman
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Did you watch him at the the WJC?
Top defenseman of the tournament indicates to me he has top pairing written all over him.
stickty111
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WJC performance means absolutely nothing. Look he can have top pairing upside, but it's not because he won top defenceman in a short tournament.
Since 1977, here are the players that won top defenceman in the tournament.
Fetisov(2), Kasatonov, Ruotsalainen, Horava, Kluzak, Byakin, Gusarov, Salo, Tatarinov, Johansson, Numminen, Persson, Godynyuk, Slegr, Kasparaitis, Gronvall, Jonsson, McCabe, Ohlund, Corvo, Skrbek, Vishnevskiy, Riazantsev, Klesla, Knyazev, Pitkänen, Lepistö, Phaneuf, Staal, Johnson, Doughty, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Ellis, Gormley, Trouba, Ristolainen, Gavrikov, Werenski, Chabot, Dahlin, Romanov
There are a few who became top pairing defenceman, but a lot of them had short good careers in the NHL. Based on history, Sandin should become a good player but a higher chance he isn't a top pairing defenceman.
I agree that the WJC doesn't mean much of anything, but that's a pretty f***in' solid list of names right there and works against your point, if anything.
Mess
Global Moderator
He won top defenseman because he lead all Dmen in scoring over the 6 game tournament.
If you watched him, he also had his lapses and defensive mistakes that lead directly to goals against.
Lots of potential and promise there and his poise under pressure was clearly evident, but also lots of room for overall improvement. IMO
Reminds me of Tomas Kaberle stylistically.
stickty111
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Lilly has 11 points on the PP this season, which is second on the team and one behind Bracco.
Sandin has 7 points on the PP this season, and 5 at ES.
Sandin has 7 points on the PP this season, and 5 at ES.
Welsh Maple Leaf
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I’m confused what side of the argument you are on after posting that list
Pretty good list of men right there.
stickty111
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This is about top pairing defenceman, not good defenceman. I am certain Sandin becomes a good player.I’m confused what side of the argument you are on after posting that list
Pretty good list of men right there.
Uhhh... What? Here's the last 15 names you listed.
Phaneuf, Staal, Johnson, Doughty, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Ellis, Gormley, Trouba, Ristolainen, Gavrikov, Werenski, Chabot, Dahlin, Romanov
The bolded are all top pairing defenders, several of them the best defenseman in the world at some point.
stickty111
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The odds are better on recent history he becomes that for sure, but using a larger sample size, probably not. I don't disagree though with you.
Anyways just saying both have top pairing upside
Risto has also averaged over 24 minutes a game throughout his career, gets the tough matchups, and continues to lead the Sabres in ice-time this year. Easily a first pairing D, even if many don't like him.
Romanov and Sandin are 19/20 and haven't been given a chance yet. And we can't really say anything about Gavrikov yet as he is a rookie (on a team with Jones, Werenski and Savard), but he has averaged over 21 minutes over the last 14 games (after 16 minutes a game for the first 31 games).
There is zero sense going back beyond the lockout as the game, especially for D, has changed a ton since then - and even Phaneuf was playing in the wrong era for his style.
Essentially what we have is 12 top pairing Ds, 1 who failed (Gormley) and 3 unknowns. So 12 out of 13.
Yet Sticky says: "There are a few who became top pairing defenceman, but a lot of them had short good careers in the NHL."
Of course Sticky also says: "Sandin has 7 points on the PP this season, and 5 at ES." which is completely wrong - Sandin recorded his 7th ES point this season on December 7th.
And posted this yesterday 9 minutes apart:
"Oh man, a rare mistake by Lilly. 3-3"
"Now Sandin with a mistake. This is becoming too common for him."
And believes there is an organizational conspiracy against Liljegren.
And went ballistic last fall at anyone who claimed Liljegren wasn't playing amazing - until months later Keefe and Dubas both specifically said that Liljegren had been playing poorly at that time.
There is an agenda being aggressively pushed by a small number of posters, who are not satisfied by simply admitting the improvements Liljegren has made this year, but who also have to make up negative claims about Sandin, and who claim that anyone who doesn't share their view doesn't watch the games, while making untrue claims themselves (like a week ago or so when one of them said that Liljegren was on the 1st PK last year with LoVerde, which is clearly not true and anyone who "watched the games" would know that).
Maple Leaf
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Watching Sandin playing for Toronto i really liked his defensive awareness, he seemed to be the only D who was checking what was going on around him. I also liked his festyness, making "offensive" hits when getting the puck near boards. I think he has the making to become a great D, perhaps not offensively as Reilly or Karlsson et al. Just a very good 2 way D who can bring stability to the back end.
DatSnipeMatthews
Registered User
A player that has never held an nhl spot cannot possibly replace a top 4 nhl D. My goodness what planet are you living on?
