Value of: Sami Vatanen and Josh Manson

[Ducks DVM]

That's exactly how it would work. It's a new franchise that's expected to make money and compete. Making friends and pinky promising other gm's is a nice thought, but if you get offered Duchene + #4 you take it.

For...Vatanen? Since we can safely state no GM in any league would do that, do you have a more reasonable offer to coerce a GM into ruining his credibility with the 30 other GM's in the league, that will prevent him from putting together a successful NHL roster, farm team, and actually making money? GM's really don't like being fired with cause. Makes it difficult to get the job back anywhere.

 

[Razzdazzle1]

It has nothing to do with being buddies, it's about establishing the fact that you are negotiating with someone in good faith. That's important to establish in a business, particularly one this insular.

How can you negotiate something on good faith when there's so many variables and unknowns. Every team is losing some decent players so it wouldn't make any sense to commit to any deals until the full expansion list is known.

So integrity is out the window if you can lie your way to a better deal?

Who's lying? You don't know with 100% accuracy how committed Vegas is to theie deal. I don't see how they could guarantee any team they wouldn't pick a certain player until they know the full expansion list. All the deals we've heard about are pretty much just rumors at this point.

How old are you?

Old enough to know you don't fully commit to a deal before knowing what's 100% at stake.

For...Vatanen? Since we can safely state no GM in any league would do that, do you have a more reasonable offer to coerce a GM into ruining his credibility with the 30 other GM's in the league, that will prevent him from putting together a successful NHL roster, farm team, and actually making money? GM's really don't like being fired with cause. Makes it difficult to get the job back anywhere.

No. For Manson and De Haan. Read the post on the previous page

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Manson produced only 17 points last year. Is he more of a defensive or shutdown defenseman than an offensive one?

 

[WisconsinDuck]

Manson produced only 17 points last year. Is he more of a defensive or shutdown defenseman than an offensive one?

Yes.

 

[pylon17]

17 + Kapanen + Dermott would be an incredibly high (and perhaps lunatic) price to pay... but I'd at least think about it.

 

[Mallard]

Hasn't McPhee come out and say he is going to give every team an opportunity to keep their team in tact? Why does everyone here think it's his goal to screw over every GM especially BM?

 

[Vinegar Strokes]

Hasn't McPhee come out and say he is going to give every team an opportunity to keep their team in tact? Why does everyone here think it's his goal to screw over every GM especially BM?

Because it fits their narrative of getting players they want.

Every reliable journalist/GM has said the same thing - they don't see any way Anaheim loses Manson or Vatanen.

We'll see on the price Anaheim pays to keep them, but I doubt it's the 1st + Theo I keep seeing.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Huh?

Wait a sec. Isnt Vegas in the same division as Anaheim?

Why the hell would McPhee care about hurting the feelings of a franchise hes never ever going to ever deal with during his entire tenure anyways?

Do San Jose and Anaheim make many trades? What about LA and Anaheim?


What do 'favours' and 'good will' benefit inter divisional rivals?

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Who's lying? You don't know with 100% accuracy how committed Vegas is to theie deal. I don't see how they could guarantee any team they wouldn't pick a certain player until they know the full expansion list. All the deals we've heard about are pretty much just rumors at this point.

The premise of the argument is that a handshake deal is in place if not one already on file with the league. It's been widely acknowledged that teams can make deals with Vegas since before the ED lists went in. If McPhee makes a deal and a team relies on that to prepare their ED protection/exposure list McPhee would be lying if he then went back on his word, to shop that teams exposed players. And that's exactly what you said he should do because he owed it to his owner. But you knew that when you made your statement.

 

[jcbeze]

Huh?

Wait a sec. Isnt Vegas in the same division as Anaheim?

Why the hell would McPhee care about hurting the feelings of a franchise hes never ever going to ever deal with during his entire tenure anyways?

Do San Jose and Anaheim make many trades? What about LA and Anaheim?


What do 'favours' and 'good will' benefit inter divisional rivals?

Hmmm maybe it would turn other GM's off from trading with someone so shady?

 

[91Fedorov]

Old enough to know you don't fully commit to a deal before knowing what's 100% at stake.

See, you are intelligent enough to get it. You're just not completing the thought process.

Bob Murray has fully committed to this deal. His protection list, his comments and the opinions of people on the inside show that. That would indicate that the deal is not some ridiculous pinkie promise (as some of our more challenged posters have implied), and is in fact a real trade filed with the league that is just not being revealed until the expansion process is complete.

 

[Razzdazzle1]

The premise of the argument is that a handshake deal is in place if not one already on file with the league. It's been widely acknowledged that teams can make deals with Vegas since before the ED lists went in. If McPhee makes a deal and a team relies on that to prepare their ED protection/exposure list McPhee would be lying if he then went back on his word, to shop that teams exposed players. And that's exactly what you said he should do because he owed it to his owner. But you knew that when you made your statement.

Nothing is confirmed. Nothing is signed. We have no idea what the potential deal is. My point is, Murray was effed and has to expose a couple good players anyways so of course he's going to try to solidify a deal to protect everyone he wants.

But If I'm McPhee I don't fully commit 100% to any deal until the full protection lists are sent out and I talk to everyone on our side to make the best decision possible. This way if someone offer something ridiculous like Duchene + #4 you aren't handcuffed to a deal you agreed to before.

This is negotiating 101.

See, you are intelligent enough to get it. You're just not completing the thought process.

Bob Murray has fully committed to this deal. His protection list, his comments and the opinions of people on the inside show that. That would indicate that the deal is not some ridiculous pinkie promise (as some of our more challenged posters have implied), and is in fact a real trade filed with the league that is just not being revealed until the expansion process is complete.

Of course Murray is committed to the deal. He's in a **** position and had to commit to expose a couple good players regardless.

The idea that a trade is already filed with the league is something you assume. It's not confirmed. I believe they have a deal in place pending a better offer. Anybody with basic negotiating skills would do this.

 

[Mallard]

Huh?

Wait a sec. Isnt Vegas in the same division as Anaheim?

Why the hell would McPhee care about hurting the feelings of a franchise hes never ever going to ever deal with during his entire tenure anyways?

Do San Jose and Anaheim make many trades? What about LA and Anaheim?


What do 'favours' and 'good will' benefit inter divisional rivals?

Ducks and Oilers have made trades...

 

[Ducks DVM]

Negotiating 101 is identifying the best assets available.

Graduate level negotiating is identifying the best assets you'll actually get without burning bridges to where you won't ever get anything again, and making sure your trading partners feel you're not the 30th guy they should talk to, if at all, for the rest of your career.

 

[91Fedorov]

Of course Murray is committed to the deal. He's in a **** position and had to commit to expose a couple good players regardless.

The idea that a trade is already filed with the league is something you assume. It's not confirmed. I believe they have a deal in place pending a better offer. Anybody with basic negotiating skills would do this.

My mistake. You're not capable of completing this thought process.

If the other side can just change their mind, then there is no deal. Anyone with basic negotiating skills would know this. So there is no deal to commit to. You're trying to get people worked up by trolling other teams. But you're stating conflicting ideas. You're thought processes are not coherent.

 

[xxreact9]

Anaheim and Vegas may of had a deal in place, but once the list came out on Sunday and other teams saw Manson and Vantenan were exposed, they might have offered something better to Vegas than what Anaheim was offering Vegas.

I mean, for example, let's say the Avs offered Duchene and #4 for Manson and De Haan, which let's say is better than what ANA/NYI agreed to with Vegas on Sunday. Vegas would go back to ANA/NYI, saying hey, I got a better deal from Team x for Manson/De Haan, can you better your deal; if not, our orginally deal is now void. Sure ANA/NYI would be pissed, but in the end, McPhee has to do what's best for Vegas. It's a business.

Yeah. Exactly. It's a business, and none of this grade 6 fantasy hockey ridiculousness is going to happen so stop it.

They had a deal. They have a deal. They will have a deal. It's a deal.

Even if there was any greater than a 0.0000000% chance McPhee pulls this terrible stunt and loses a lot of trading partners and permanently ruins the franchise, I'm sure BM has a clause in place to protect his back to prevent this from happening.

It literally isn't a possibility. Not at all. Not even 0.0000000000000000001%.

Just stop this already, this is getting old.

 

[xxreact9]

Huh?

Wait a sec. Isnt Vegas in the same division as Anaheim?

Why the hell would McPhee care about hurting the feelings of a franchise hes never ever going to ever deal with during his entire tenure anyways?

Do San Jose and Anaheim make many trades? What about LA and Anaheim?


What do 'favours' and 'good will' benefit inter divisional rivals?

Now it's about hurting feelings?

Do you have any idea how much money goes into this league? It's a lot more formal and professional than hurting feelings, back stabbing, or whatever else you guys have been watching on Big Brother the TV show.

This is real life. I repeat, this is real life.

 

[Spazkat]

Nothing is confirmed. Nothing is signed. We have no idea what the potential deal is. My point is, Murray was effed and has to expose a couple good players anyways so of course he's going to try to solidify a deal to protect everyone he wants.

But If I'm McPhee I don't fully commit 100% to any deal until the full protection lists are sent out and I talk to everyone on our side to make the best decision possible. This way if someone offer something ridiculous like Duchene + #4 you aren't handcuffed to a deal you agreed to before.

This is negotiating 101.




Of course Murray is committed to the deal. He's in a **** position and had to commit to expose a couple good players regardless.

The idea that a trade is already filed with the league is something you assume. It's not confirmed. I believe they have a deal in place pending a better offer. Anybody with basic negotiating skills would do this.

Negotiating 101 is pretty much "you don't even waste your breath talking to a person you don't believe is negotiating with you in good faith". You clearly are completely unfamiliar with the both the basics of contract law with regards to verbal agreements, and the importance NHL GM's place on perceived integrity. Were a GM to screw over one of his peers like that he would be a literal pariah.

 

[Liferleafer]

Manson produced only 17 points last year. Is he more of a defensive or shutdown defenseman than an offensive one?

He's Chris Tanev...but more physical.

 

[StuckOutHere]

Negotiating 101 is identifying the best assets available.

Graduate level negotiating is identifying the best assets you'll actually get without burning bridges to where you won't ever get anything again, and making sure your trading partners feel you're not the 30th guy they should talk to, if at all, for the rest of your career.

I don't buy the notion these pre-draft deals are in stone. We've seen offersheets, barn fight threats, etc but at the end of the day these are professionals whose number one job is to do what's best for their team. If that means spilled milk with a GM that's the cost of doing business. In fact there is great article on Pension Plan Puppets, which I think piggybacks off a piece by Tyler Dellow, about the trading and offersheet histories of teams. Some highlights:

-Colorado and Calgary made a trade the same year they went through the Ryan O'Reilly offersheet
-Chicago and San Jose made two trades in the aftermath of the Hjalmarsson offersheet.
-Vancouver and St Louis both traded with each other after the offersheeting of Backes and the retaliatory offersheeting of Bernier.

So, I don't doubt for a second that if a team approaches Vegas and offers them a clear upgrade on what Anaheim is offering to keep Vatanen and Manson that Vegas will pull the trigger. GMGM runs Vegas, not Anaheim.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I don't buy the notion these pre-draft deals are in stone. We've seen offersheets, barn fight threats, etc but at the end of the day these are professionals whose number one job is to do what's best for their team. If that means spilled milk with a GM that's the cost of doing business. In fact there is great article on Pension Plan Puppets, which I think piggybacks off a piece by Tyler Dellow, about the trading and offersheet histories of teams. Some highlights:

-Colorado and Calgary made a trade the same year they went through the Ryan O'Reilly offersheet
-Chicago and San Jose made two trades in the aftermath of the Hjalmarsson offersheet.
-Vancouver and St Louis both traded with each other after the offersheeting of Backes and the retaliatory offersheeting of Bernier.

So, I don't doubt for a second that if a team approaches Vegas and offers them a clear upgrade on what Anaheim is offering to keep Vatanen and Manson that Vegas will pull the trigger. GMGM runs Vegas, not Anaheim.

What's best for your team "right now in this circumstance" =/= "what's best for your team in the long run", and the GM's know that.

It would be a more interesting article if it listed handshake deals that were broken, and how that affected teams that broke the deals. That's clearly impossible to get data on, but that would be the relevant story

 

[rent free]

leafs 2017 1st for manson

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

leafs 2017 1st for manson

Um...

Ill just simply say no... but please think before you post

 

[Razzdazzle1]

Negotiating 101 is identifying the best assets available.

Graduate level negotiating is identifying the best assets you'll actually get without burning bridges to where you won't ever get anything again, and making sure your trading partners feel you're not the 30th guy they should talk to, if at all, for the rest of your career.

My mistake. You're not capable of completing this thought process.

If the other side can just change their mind, then there is no deal. Anyone with basic negotiating skills would know this. So there is no deal to commit to. You're trying to get people worked up by trolling other teams. But you're stating conflicting ideas. You're thought processes are not coherent.

Negotiating 101 is pretty much "you don't even waste your breath talking to a person you don't believe is negotiating with you in good faith". You clearly are completely unfamiliar with the both the basics of contract law with regards to verbal agreements, and the importance NHL GM's place on perceived integrity. Were a GM to screw over one of his peers like that he would be a literal pariah.

Lol I love how 100% confident you guys are that a deal is made and signed between Vegas and Ducks because you read an article and forum post on the internet.

 

[Liferleafer]

leafs 2017 1st for manson

You would need to add on top of that, and add quite a bit i'd assume.