Value of: Sami Vatanen and Josh Manson

[dracom]

Lol I love how 100% confident you guys are that a deal is made and signed between Vegas and Ducks because you read an article and forum post on the internet.

You mean because we read what our GM said and what the most trusted insiders have said.

It's hilarious how much people will ignore those who actually have inside information because it doesn't fit what they want to hear.

 

[Dirty Dog]

God if this won't be the best thread post-expansion draft no matter the result.

 

[dkollidas]

I have a feeling the deal is sonething around Theodore or Larsson going to Vegas in exchange for Vegas selecting a player NOT named Vatanen or Manson.

Fits Vegas' plan to build long term, with a guy who is close to NHL ready but can play in the AHL.

Also makes sense for Anaheim as they have greater depth on the left side between Fowler & Lindholm, whereas on the right its Manson/Vatanen/Montour and then drops down to Bieksa.

Personally I think it's Theodore. Vatanen/Montour/Fowler all bring similar enough games. Larsson is younger and plays more of a 2-way game that Carlyle will appreciate.

 

[StuckOutHere]

What's best for your team "right now in this circumstance" =/= "what's best for your team in the long run", and the GM's know that.

It would be a more interesting article if it listed handshake deals that were broken, and how that affected teams that broke the deals. That's clearly impossible to get data on, but that would be the relevant story

Vegas wants futures. Let's go with the obvious hypothetical (let's not get to into the weeds on the actual valuation here). So, let's say Anaheim is offering their 2018 1st round pick to protect their defencemen. 2018 is a better draft sure, but Anaheim is likely picking mid-late 20's. The Leafs want a defencemen. If they offer pick 17 and pick 59 for Vatanen or Manson, Vegas would certainly have reason to think about it. a) More picks, including a higher pick than what Anaheim will probably send next year. b) Anaheim is in their division, so not a common trade partner per say down the road. Add in the fact that these trades have seldom actually, as we can tell, negated trades in the past, I don't see how Vegas doesn't do this. This is of course just a wild hypothetical, but I don't see why Vegas would, at this stage of existence, put themselves in a box where they only limit their options. Of course Vegas could go to Anaheim with Toronto's offer and maybe get Anaheim to do a lopsided pick swap at the draft or something.

Regardless, this is going to be an entertaining week.

 

[Liferleafer]

I have a feeling the deal is sonething around Theodore or Larsson going to Vegas in exchange for Vegas selecting a player NOT named Vatanen or Manson.

Fits Vegas' plan to build long term, with a guy who is close to NHL ready but can play in the AHL.

Also makes sense for Anaheim as they have greater depth on the left side between Fowler & Lindholm, whereas on the right its Manson/Vatanen/Montour and then drops down to Bieksa.

Personally I think it's Theodore. Vatanen/Montour/Fowler all bring similar enough games. Larsson is younger and plays more of a 2-way game that Carlyle will appreciate.

That seems questionable, because i know Toronto would pay much more than Theo or Larsson to trade for Vats or Manson.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Vegas wants futures. Let's go with the obvious hypothetical (let's not get to into the weeds on the actual valuation here). So, let's say Anaheim is offering their 2018 1st round pick to protect their defencemen. 2018 is a better draft sure, but Anaheim is likely picking mid-late 20's. The Leafs want a defencemen. If they offer pick 17 and pick 59 for Vatanen or Manson, Vegas would certainly have reason to think about it. a) More picks, including a higher pick than what Anaheim will probably send next year. b) Anaheim is in their division, so not a common trade partner per say down the road. Add in the fact that these trades have seldom actually, as we can tell, negated trades in the past, I don't see how Vegas doesn't do this. This is of course just a wild hypothetical, but I don't see why Vegas would, at this stage of existence, put themselves in a box where they only limit their options. Of course Vegas could go to Anaheim with Toronto's offer and maybe get Anaheim to do a lopsided pick swap at the draft or something.

Regardless, this is going to be an entertaining week.

And my point would then be, does Toronto do that to a team that has historically been great trading partners with them? Doubtful

Is that enough for McPhee to put a target on his back and go back on his deal in front of the nhl? doubtful... I think the team trying to get vegas to take manson/vatanen would have to overpay pretty big.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

That seems questionable, because i know Toronto would pay much more than Theo or Larsson to trade for Vats or Manson.

No they certainly would not.

 

[Liferleafer]

No they certainly would not.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

No they certainly would not.

Leafs fans would... leafs management not likely

 

[Liferleafer]

Leafs fans would... leafs management not likely

You might be surprised....they know we have massive holes, and i doubt they are still going the 5 year route to fix them.

 

[dkollidas]

That seems questionable, because i know Toronto would pay much more than Theo or Larsson to trade for Vats or Manson.

But it doesn't only allow Anaheim to not lose one for nothing, it allows Anaheim to keep both. And for a team who is in a win now mode, was one game away from the finals and has the depth of young defensemen to afford to do something like this, it just makes sense for Anaheim to deal with Vegas directly and keep both their guys who play prominent roles.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Care to elaborate?

Noting to elaborate on?

what are you realistically going to offer that is more than Theodore/Larsson? that is high enough to motivate vegas to go back on their deal/word? At the same time is high enough to entice vegas to bother moving him too Toronto, when they could just keep them and use them.


Toronto would literally be paying whatever Anaheim would demand for each piece? so why would they go through vegas and ruin their relationship with Anaheim when they could likely just offer the "much more" to Anaheim.

I wont be shocked if vatanen ends up in Toronto, but it wont be through vegas itll be at the draft between ducks and leafs.

 

[Liferleafer]

But it doesn't only allow Anaheim to not lose one for nothing, it allows Anaheim to keep both. And for a team who is in a win now mode, was one game away from the finals and has the depth of young defensemen to afford to do something like this, it just makes sense for Anaheim to deal with Vegas directly and keep both their guys who play prominent roles.

Oh, i get that, but it depends on the best return for Vegas. What happens if the Leafs offer a better package than Anaheim?

 

[rent free]

Um...

Ill just simply say no... but please think before you post

lol why not? care to give an explanantion?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

You might be surprised....they know we have massive holes, and i doubt they are still going the 5 year route to fix them.

What happened to Toronto fan base and their "we have time, were in no rush, were ahead of schedule"


Cause vatanen is going to cost whatever Anaheim has asked for if vegas is moving them, hell veags might charge more because they don't have the depth Anaheim has on the blue line.

Same goes for manson, cept I'm guessing there are a lot more teams interested in manson.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

lol why not? care to give an explanantion?

17th for Manson?

why would Anaheim even consider that? Not nearly enough, and I guarantee every team in the league has a better offer for manson then that... and that includes vegas

 

[91Fedorov]

That seems questionable, because i know Toronto would pay much more than Theo or Larsson to trade for Vats or Manson.

So, I have to ask. When you throw this thought out there, you seem to think that there is not a deal in place between Anaheim and Vegas. It's just a suggestion that is open to being outbid.

You really think that an NHL general manager is currently risking the future of his team on something that flimsy? And you also seem to assume that the NHL insiders that say there is a deal in place just don't know what they're talking about? Is that actually what you think?

 

[Liferleafer]

What happened to Toronto fan base and their "we have time, were in no rush, were ahead of schedule"


Cause vatanen is going to cost whatever Anaheim has asked for if vegas is moving them, hell veags might charge more because they don't have the depth Anaheim has on the blue line.

Same goes for manson, cept I'm guessing there are a lot more teams interested in manson.

Obviously i don't have direct info, but Chris Johnson just tweeted that the Leafs and Vegas are working on a trade....and i can tell you it is certainly not to protect on of our exposed players....because they aren't worth protecting.

 

[Liferleafer]

So, I have to ask. When you throw this thought out there, you seem to think that there is not a deal in place between Anaheim and Vegas. It's just a suggestion that is open to being outbid.

You really think that an NHL general manager is currently risking the future of his team on something that flimsy? And you also seem to assume that the NHL insiders that say there is a deal in place just don't know what they're talking about? Is that actually what you think?

Oh no, i think there is absolutely a deal between the 2 teams, but what that deal is can't be known, it could be a deal to not take either Vats or Manson...or just to not take Manson.

 

[StuckOutHere]

And my point would then be, does Toronto do that to a team that has historically been great trading partners with them? Doubtful

Is that enough for McPhee to put a target on his back and go back on his deal in front of the nhl? doubtful... I think the team trying to get vegas to take manson/vatanen would have to overpay pretty big.

Sure, the Toronto-Anaheim relationship is a factor. I'm not saying it has to be Toronto, that was just the hypothetical. Fact is, GMGM isn't doing his job right if he is more concerned with how much GMs like him versus stockpiling assets. He'll have the league in his pocket again at the TDL when he is selling rentals, and Anaheim or Tampa or whomever is going to care a lot more about their respective cup runs than a completely legitimate trade where they simply took a risk and got outbid.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Obviously i don't have direct info, but Chris Johnson just tweeted that the Leafs and Vegas are working on a trade....and i can tell you it is certainly not to protect on of our exposed players....because they aren't worth protecting.

Maybe to take a bad contract off your hands?

 

[mmbt]

Lol I love how 100% confident you guys are that a deal is made and signed between Vegas and Ducks because you read an article and forum post on the internet.

Maybe there is a deal, maybe there isn't. None of us are privy to that.

However, if there IS a deal, I highly doubt any GM would back out after it's agreed upon, just because something better came along. It's not about being afraid of hurting feelings, or anything like that ... it's because while they're all competitors, they're also business associates. Almost every GM will at some point be fired, and probably have to take a gig somewhere else as an assistant or with a scouting dept. And if you've built a rep as someone whose word means nothing and who's in it for himself, you're unlikely to be hired by any other team president or GM to work under him, because you're already proven to be untrustworthy. If you'll burn another team's GM for an okay player, you'd probably burn your boss for his job too.

While Manson and Vatanen are good players ... are either of them SO good that you'd burn your reputation over them? If I were a GM, I wouldn't. I might do it for a franchise or near-franchise player, but such a scenario would likely never come up, and even if it did I'd have to accept that it might be the last team I work for.

Contrary to what many believe, the most successful people in business aren't the ones who backstab people they work with. The best executive in sports over the last few decades is probably Jerry West, and I don't think any other GM has ever questioned his credibility or integrity.

 

[Mallard]

Maybe there is a deal, maybe there isn't. None of us are privy to that.

However, if there IS a deal, I highly doubt any GM would back out after it's agreed upon, just because something better came along. It's not about being afraid of hurting feelings, or anything like that ... it's because while they're all competitors, they're also business associates. Almost every GM will at some point be fired, and probably have to take a gig somewhere else as an assistant or with a scouting dept. And if you've built a rep as someone whose word means nothing and who's in it for himself, you're unlikely to be hired by any other team president or GM to work under him, because you're already proven to be untrustworthy. If you'll burn another team's GM for an okay player, you'd probably burn your boss for his job too.

While Manson and Vatanen are good players ... are either of them SO good that you'd burn your reputation over them? If I were a GM, I wouldn't. I might do it for a franchise or near-franchise player, but such a scenario would likely never come up, and even if it did I'd have to accept that it might be the last team I work for.

Contrary to what many believe, the most successful people in business aren't the ones who backstab people they work with. The best executive in sports over the last few decades is probably Jerry West, and I don't think any other GM has ever questioned his credibility or integrity.

Could not have put it any better. Where were you for the past 9 pages??

 

[Liferleafer]

Maybe to take a bad contract off your hands?

We really don't have one....unless it's Horton's (Lupul is done next season), and there really isn't any urgency to pay assets to move it as he and Lupul are both LTIR, and we already have a decent amount of cap space.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

We really don't have one....unless it's Horton's (Lupul is done next season), and there really isn't any urgency to pay assets to move it as he and Lupul are both LTIR, and we already have a decent amount of cap space.

Arnt rychel and leispic on the exposed list... I think the leafs management could potentially want to keep both if they could.