Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Forget the whale ... We'll buy the place with beads

[Peat]

Are you forgetting that 1st rounder we swapped for the 2nd? The original post you replied to was discussing having Kostin on our AHL team. That has nothing to do with Sunny, although I still liked the player so if I'm proven wrong on him, I'll own up to it. I know the argument is that we would have taken Lauzon anyway, but personally I think that argument is crap.

Why? Over the last couple of drafts, the management have cheerfully reached repeatedly and displayed a great desire for old school dmen with modern mobility and puck movement. They took him only 20 picks later - how many guys in that 20 fitted Pens hockey and our recent drafting biases?

I mean... we can't be sure it would have gone down that way. And yeah, GMs do kid from time to time. But its really not stretching plausibility to suggest he was their guy.

 

[66-30-33]

So what's next after Duchene? Tyler Johnson?

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I don't think the Bolts are going to be selling, specifically a player that could dramatically help another Eastern Conference team.

If we make a splash, it's likely going to be one of those out of the blue type moves, I think. Something JR and Sully are privy to and has been going on behind the scenes for a bit but we have no real idea of.

I have no idea how to really right the ship though. Systematic issues defensively are ruining this team's chances, we still have a pretty awful 4th line and Sheahan's doing his best Nick Spaling impression. Sid just looks wholly uninterested. We can't/shouldn't keep Jarry up and playing fewer games--so we need a backup goalie as well. And of course there's the issue of Letang playing at about 20% of his capability. Lots of issues.

 

[pokey10]

I mean, in a perfect world, JR would have Rask, Lindholm or Burmistrov lined up.

 

[SEALBound]

I mean, in a perfect world, JR would have Rask, Lindholm or Burmistrov lined up.

Rask, Lindholm, Karlsson, Lindberg, Haula, Shore...there are lots of options...just a matter of who is available.

I think it's too early to tell who may come available.

 

[Nakawick]

Why would any GM bother with Sheahan at this point though? The time to trade Hags was this summer, you know, during those 3 months where we didn’t do anything.

Sheahan has as much value as a Chris Kunitz Pens’ jersey.

In both cases we would be including assets to upgrade. The other team would be receiving a replacement player in addition to the other assets we give them. Sheahan for example can replace the center that the other team is trading, not in a direct replacement of value, but a roster spot. Sheahan is a RFA and is an NHL calibre player and will be cheap for a team that is most likely rebuilding. The same applies for Hagelin in that the receiving team would get a replacement player of lessor value for their roster in addition to the futures or other assets. It is also common knowledge that in the salary cap era, most trades involve some sort of salary transaction in addition to assets transaction.

The main goals of the other team would not be to get Sheahan or Hagelin.

You seem quite emotionally invested in the Pens. Do you have some roster suggestions and trades that will make the Pens a better team? Ones that are realistic and will fit into the salary cap constraints? You seem to be of the impression that senile old gramps has already screwed the team in July and August. Is there any hope left or do you feel that the team is screwed and are hanging around here for the free emotional support?

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

To be fair to JR, even if a guy is available, the other GM needs to want the package you're offering for a trade to happen. Even if we "beat" the offer by the Sens, Sakic needed to view it that way. Sorta like the report regarding Saad a few years ago. Rumor has it we offered the best package for the guy, but Chicago went another way.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

As the year progresses, a center like Plekanec or even Sedin (with retention) could become a possible trade target.

 

[Hottubber]

Wonder what the cost would be on Sobotka?

 

[Hottubber]

As the year progresses, a center like Plekanec or even Sedin (with retention) could become a possible trade target.

Linden already said Sedins will not be traded. And I believe the Sedins said they don’t want to play anywhere else

Things obviously could change on both ends

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Linden already said Sedins will not be traded. And I believe the Sedins said they don’t want to play anywhere else

Things obviously could change on both ends

They probably won't. But you never know...a couple extra quality futures could be mighty appealing if the Nucks are out of it come March.

Plekanec makes more sense to me the more I think about it. He could bring a lot of what we need at 3C, he wouldn't cost much, and there's no commitment past this year.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think the Sedins retiring together in Vancouver is about as much a lock as anything in the NHL.

 

[Tom Hanks]

They probably won't. But you never know...a couple extra quality futures could be mighty appealing if the Nucks are out of it come March.

Plekanec makes more sense to me the more I think about it. He could bring a lot of what we need at 3C, he wouldn't cost much, and there's no commitment past this year.

The Sedins have NMC’s so it’s up to them. They look at lot slower these days and aren’t great shots. Still have lots of skill though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Are you forgetting that 1st rounder we swapped for the 2nd? The original post you replied to was discussing having Kostin on our AHL team. That has nothing to do with Sunny, although I still liked the player so if I'm proven wrong on him, I'll own up to it. I know the argument is that we would have taken Lauzon anyway, but personally I think that argument is crap.

Side tangent: I watched the Blues game versus I think it was the Leafs? Or maybe it was someone else. In any case, it was only one game, but what I saw from Sundqvist was what I saw from him each time he was called up to the Pens. A player who doesn't really do anything beyond what we got out of Carter Rowney.

Unless he improves tremendously, the only regret from that trade will be the swap of the 1st for the 2nd. Sundqvist, IMO, is a non-entity.

 

[Crosby My Captain 87]

Wonder what the cost would be on Sobotka?

I love Sobotka but the Blues have to be in win now mode imo, and he's a part of their top 6 with Fabbri out. Could be wrong, I just don't see Sobotka moving on from there. Especially because he is on a relatively team-friendly deal.

 

[Shady Machine]

But did Karlsson have the value at that time? We can't sit in hindsight and critique JR for moves he didn't make. Very rarely do we ever get that privilege with any team/GM. About the most recent example would be looking at the reported offers for Duchene that Sakic vetoed for one reason or another.

If you frame the discussion as "Oh man, I wish JR could have gotten Karlsson last summer! That would have been sweet!", that's one thing. But to say "Damn JR! Why didn't he get Karlsson for XYZ when he had the chance!? Grrrrr to JR!" is shortsighted and an incomplete argument. We have no idea what GMGM wanted to do with Karlsson. We have no idea of the cost/value. We don't know that JR didn't try to get him and got shot down. Hell, we DO know he made a late push for Duchene...something like Sheary, Sprong, 1st? So the only thing we can really say is that JR obviously sees the need for a better 3C and is willing to make the deals to try to get that.

It's not like Duchene went for a song and JR said they had zero interest. I'm sure if there are moves that can make the team better for the right price, that JR and Co is exploring them. At the very least, JR HAS earned that benefit of the doubt. Sometimes moves pan out, sometimes they don't. Perron didn't pan, but Hags did. Bonino panned out. Kessel panned out. Lovejoy for Despres...meh. Reaves may or may not. Sheahan doesn't look like it's panning out the way they hope. Goc and Winnik didn't pan out. There's a lot of give and take but at least JR is willing to make the moves. We can't always blame him for moves he didn't make because we wanted him to make them.

Damn JR for not trading Maatta for Hall at the time! What was he thinking!

Okay looks like we are done here then. Time to lock up this thread since we can't make suggestions on who JR should have acquired over the summer.

 

[SEALBound]

Okay looks like we are done here then. Time to lock up this thread since we can't make suggestions on who JR should have acquired over the summer.

Don't be so dramatic. That's not was I was saying and you know it. Even though the last several of these threads have been nothing more than feces slinging temper tantrums. You can only argue and bitch about THE EXACT SAME THING so many times. Not you specifically, but you know what I'm saying. Especially when it's stuff that literally cannot be change. Like, literally...in the physical realm we inhabit, cannot be changed. Time cannot be reversed. We can't go back and force JR and other GMs to make the trades the fans want.

So while I would totally be up for discussions revolving around future potential 3C or other targets, I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOO friggin over "blah blah blah Sheahan sucks, blah blah blah should have signed Bonino, blah blah blah why didn't JR sign Moore? blah blah blah why didn't JR trade for Karlsson in July, blah blah blah blah blah blah".

999/1000 of those shit posts do not in anyway offer a solution. Like I said, feces slinging temper tantrums. Not just from one but from many. It's completely ruined the fruitfulness of the thread. So instead of smart posters here discussing the future, everyone is bogged down in same damn conversation stirred up by trolls that covers the exact same discussion points over and over and over again while at the same time offering NOTHING to move us forward.

And I never said that you can't make suggestions on who he should have acquired. I'm just saying it's not fair to criticize him for such when we never get the true details on who was even available and at what price. Just because the trade you wanted didn't go through, doesn't mean he didn't at least look into it. Who knows, maybe he did look into Karlsson and GMGM wanted Guentzel+1st. Would you criticize JR if that was the price and he turned it down? No? Then how can people justifiably criticize him for stuff that potentially didn't even happen or that we have know way of knowing the details? It's like us moving the 1st in the Reaves deal and being mad at JR because we don't have Kostin. I always ask for proof that he would have been taken...but that request falls on deaf ears.

There...was that dramatic enough?

 

[Pens x]

Okay looks like we are done here then. Time to lock up this thread since we can't make suggestions on who JR should have acquired over the summer.

It’s very hard to reason with people whose opinions change on a daily basis to blindly defend Rutherford.

Remember when this board kept saying Sheahan just needed a change of scenery and his poor play was the result of Blashill? That narrative progressed to well well well Detroit was a mess last year! It’s the team’s fault. Now people are greatly overrating his defensive skills and blaming his pathetic play on needing moar time! What is next? He is a good lockeroom leader? Give me break. Shame on those who thought this clown would turn around his career because Justin Schultz did it, too!

At this point, I suspect we are stuck waiting until more teams realize that they aren’t playoff teams to make a move. Something clearly went wrong this off season. No contender starts the season, fully healthy, with McKegg and Rowney at center, after losing Cullen and Bones.

Right now I would try Jake at 3C and demote Sheahan to the fourth line where he belongs. I didn’t want to play Jake at center before the season, but Sheahan is a joke out there. It’s time to cut our losses and try SOMETHING else. But but but he needs moar time!

So my solution would be stop this crap with Sheahan at 3C and shuffle the lines or promote someone from Wilkes Barre that isn’t an absolute joke offensively. But he can block shots!!! So could Craig Adams...

 

[Andy99]

I honestly will not be surprised if JR is unable to make a hockey trade for a center before the TDL. It's been tough sledding so far and there is a lot of competition.

I hope the Pens consider that the best move for the playoffs without a trade may be moving Guentzel to 3C and bringing up some fresh blood from WBS. Not just Sprong, who I hope works out long term, but try out some other players early (now ?) like Di Pauli who has been doing well and see if they fit. If they do well now in the bottom six, send them back down and then if there are no available trades, move Jake to center and call those players do well up for the remainder of the season. Gives us the benefit of fresh legs and alternating rest for some of the roster players

 

[Nakawick]

I was suggesting giving Jake a taste of center during the summer as well. That would likely involve Sprong up and playing both Sheary and Rust at LW.

Sheary Sid Hornqvist
Rust Malkin Sprong
HGK
Kuhn/Mckegg Sheahan Reaves/Archibald

 

[Shady Machine]

Don't be so dramatic. That's not was I was saying and you know it. Even though the last several of these threads have been nothing more than feces slinging temper tantrums. You can only argue and ***** about THE EXACT SAME THING so many times. Not you specifically, but you know what I'm saying. Especially when it's stuff that literally cannot be change. Like, literally...in the physical realm we inhabit, cannot be changed. Time cannot be reversed. We can't go back and force JR and other GMs to make the trades the fans want.

So while I would totally be up for discussions revolving around future potential 3C or other targets, I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOO friggin over "blah blah blah Sheahan sucks, blah blah blah should have signed Bonino, blah blah blah why didn't JR sign Moore? blah blah blah why didn't JR trade for Karlsson in July, blah blah blah blah blah blah".

999/1000 of those **** posts do not in anyway offer a solution. Like I said, feces slinging temper tantrums. Not just from one but from many. It's completely ruined the fruitfulness of the thread. So instead of smart posters here discussing the future, everyone is bogged down in same damn conversation stirred up by trolls that covers the exact same discussion points over and over and over again while at the same time offering NOTHING to move us forward.

And I never said that you can't make suggestions on who he should have acquired. I'm just saying it's not fair to criticize him for such when we never get the true details on who was even available and at what price. Just because the trade you wanted didn't go through, doesn't mean he didn't at least look into it. Who knows, maybe he did look into Karlsson and GMGM wanted Guentzel+1st. Would you criticize JR if that was the price and he turned it down? No? Then how can people justifiably criticize him for stuff that potentially didn't even happen or that we have know way of knowing the details? It's like us moving the 1st in the Reaves deal and being mad at JR because we don't have Kostin. I always ask for proof that he would have been taken...but that request falls on deaf ears.

There...was that dramatic enough?

Yeah that's pretty dramatic. The reason I bring up the past is because I have been arguing since the summer that waiting until the deadline would be a mistake as quality center are rarely moved then and when they are, it's a significant overpayment. When I was being impatient in the summer it was "give JR time". Well I have given him time and so far we have an okay gamble on a 4C that has a website that tracks how long it's been since his last goal.

I'm obviously willing to let it play out but I continue to believe that not being more aggressive in the summer was a mistake.

Like you said, I have no idea what JR offered other GMs but neither do you. So if you want to think I'm being unfair to JR, that's your right.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Nothing really out there atm except for Friedman throwing out Spezza possibly on the weekend.
American Thanksgiving is where teams take stock and a few more guys may shake loose then.

 

[Tender Rip]

The right place to look at the start of the season is the right place to look now. Vegas.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

We all knew that was a pipe dream. Just add him to another long list of wishful wingers for Sid. If he thought about leaving Boston for Pittsburgh, I truly think Boston would have really up'ed their offer to retain him. Not so much so that they can still have him but more so - so that Pittsburgh couldn't.



I don't know who watched 2016 ECF and still says no to Namestnikov. He wasn't Kucherov but he was still a solid player for them. I see him as their Rust. Great depth player that'a worth more to them than the assets you'd get in return.

I really admire Tampa's willingness to take chances on the Russian players. Kuch, Name, Vasi are all important parts of their team that went later than they probably should have. Lots of other Europeans on there as well that are having an important impact like Palat and Hedman. It always seemed like Steve Y always took who he genuinely thought was BPA based on ability and nothing else. Certainly no North American bias there. Course he's always had a lot of picks and has been willing to move players...so there's that too. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND...he doesn't have two back to back Cups...so there's that angle as well, lol.



Sid always is. This is a Sid-First organization. If Sid ain't happy, nobody is happy. I think 99/100 Sid will get the wingers he asks for. Case in point, I thought the best Sid has looked all year was with Sheary and Horny. Last game, back to Jake and Rust. What Sid wants, he gets. So I don't think Sid's woes are on anyone but Sid himself. He's not immune to criticism.



I think most people had their 3C list littered with Vegas centers. I wanted Karlsson bad. That's because I remember his play in the playoffs. I also wanted Lindberg. Haula seemed like more of a pipe dream. As did Faska. We all knew about Sheahan and had similar thoughts. When the reality of the situation began to set in, feelings changed. I remember jones'ing pretty bad for Schmidt. But then reality set in. Hunwick was actually 2nd on my list and I was happy we got him.

Point of this yammering is though, is that we don't always have "access" to the players we want. How many times has JR said in his tenure here "wait to see who becomes available"? I mean, if you were GMGM, you have to ice a line up...why move guys like Karlsson, Lindberg, or Haula? If I was able to get them, I wouldn't trade them right away either. And now that VGK are doing decent, I really wouldn't trade them. A lot of other teams operate the same way. So it's not just about value for value trades. Availability and long term roster building is important to 31 teams, not just 1 team. We know so little about what goes on behind closed doors. Who knows if they would have even given Moore a second thought if he was available? To criticize JR for the roster we currently have by saying "but we could have signed Moore and done these trades or signed this person" is incredibly short-sighted and in most cases, a bad argument because you (we) have so little access to the facts of the matter.

Now if someone on the inside spells out what the options were at the time and releases audio of phone calls between GMs...then there could be an objective debate of whether or not JR and Co did the right thing or not. That would even be tossing the fact that performance from year to year with players in the 1-2mil region tends to be a crap shoot.



Agreed. I don't know how people can watch the 2016 and 2017 playoffs, watch the abuse Sid and Geno (and everyone else) took, listened to the complaints of JR and Co, and then be shocked that they went out and got Reaves. That has little to do with building a lethal 4th line and everything to do with having a guy that will smash someone's face if they do something cheap. Won't prevent everything but at the very least, someone will have to answer for it unlike the last couple years. Sestito could have been that guy but he loses his head every now and then.

My issue with Reaves was more of the cost than the player. I just wish it hadn't been Sundqvist. Not saying he's the center that would solve all of our issues but I would have liked to have at least explored that option. Reaves+2nd for Kuhnhackl+1st would have been acceptable and made a lot more sense.

My other issue is that I don't believe Reaves needs to be a regular player for us. I think a 4th line of Kuhn-McKegg-Archi could be tried in several games. Run Reaves against CBJ, Philly, Jets, etc. There was no reason to put Reaves in against a team like the Canes, Hawks, etc.

I wish I can find that thread, because speaking to some pens fans about certain players is almost as bad as posting in the trade forum alone.

 

[Pens x]

The right place to look at the start of the season is the right place to look now. Vegas.

One problem - they are a playoff team as of now. They likely won’t trade someone unless Rutherford overpays. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.