Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Forget the whale ... We'll buy the place with beads

[canadianguy77]

Where are people getting the idea that SCH looked good? They looked terrible together.
Crosby thrives with a cycle game down low. Sheary loses the puck along the walls far too often, and Horny shoots the puck from weird angles as soon as he gets it.

 

[SEALBound]

Where are people getting the idea that SCH looked good? They looked terrible together.
Crosby thrives with a cycle game down low. Sheary loses the puck along the walls far too often, and Horny shoots the puck from weird angles as soon as he gets it.

They watched the games.

Reaves is an eye for an eye type of move not a deterrent. I understand it, I just disagree with it. As Shady said it’s the playoffs when the opposition will take more liberties. If Crosby is in a vulnerable position in the playoffs his opponent won’t be thinking about Reaves at all, he’ll be thinking this could bring us closer to a cup.

Our chances for a threepeat would be better to stick with what we are good at. More offense. Reaves is the opposite of that.

Hate him 95% of the time. Then he'll lay out someone and it's pure love. But it's short lived.

 

[canadianguy77]

They watched the games.

Apparently I need to see the optometrist, because I'm not seeing what you are.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Apparently I need to see the optometrist, because I'm not seeing what you are.

Hornqvist left a lot of plays on the ice the last few games. That line looked ok, but some people believe Crosby and Hornqvist are great together so they see what they want I guess.

I'm not sure if Rust is the answer though as he's never looked that good with Crosby. This kind of whittles down the options though...

 

[Nakawick]

If/when that becomes an issue, I'll be on the same boat. We should all agree that Archy is a better player than Reaves and gives us more roster flexibility, but I think preserving Sid and Geno is important enough to deal with that drop-off for at least the regular season.

What compounds our problem is that we also have a 3rd line that can't score so our entire bottom 6 is a non-factor at ES. If/when we get a 3C that can do more than try not to get scored on, Reaves presence in the line-up might not be as big an issue.

I am not 100% convinced of that. I don't know what you are basing that on. I think they are roughly equal at best. Reaves will look better playing with an NHL center.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I said I would have signed Moore this summer as a safety net. I never suggested that he’d be our third line center permanently. I’ve told you all from day one this team wasn’t proactive enough and the few moves we did make were all awful.
So here we are.

Signing Moore as a safety net means while waiting for Cullen to sign means the Pens would have potentially ended up with 2 guys playing the 4C role. JR clearly wanted Cullen at 4C and then acquire someone better for 3C. If he signed Moore, he couldn't have done that.

No point in discussing this more, we disagree. You think a gm should be commended because he re-signed restricted Free agents, even if two were overpaid. I think that is something routine that all teams do with ease.

You really like to make up arguments for the other person and continue to act like that's what they're arguing, don't you.

I've not once said JR should be "commended" for anything this summer. I've simply had a "let's wait and see before we judge" approach.

And that's the problem with your arguments. You always assume that anyone who disagrees with you does so because they think JR's been super awesome this off-season, no matter how many hundreds of times it's explained to you.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I am not 100% convinced of that. I don't know what you are basing that on. I think they are roughly equal at best.

I'll rephrase that: I think Archibald is a better player for the Pens than Reaves. Our identity has been speed and Archy can bring the sort of speed and spark that I don't think Reaves can right now. This is a stretch where I'd be sitting Reaves if the other team doesn't have a resident idiot.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think most people had their 3C list littered with Vegas centers. I wanted Karlsson bad. That's because I remember his play in the playoffs. I also wanted Lindberg. Haula seemed like more of a pipe dream. As did Faska. We all knew about Sheahan and had similar thoughts. When the reality of the situation began to set in, feelings changed. I remember jones'ing pretty bad for Schmidt. But then reality set in. Hunwick was actually 2nd on my list and I was happy we got him.

Point of this yammering is though, is that we don't always have "access" to the players we want. How many times has JR said in his tenure here "wait to see who becomes available"? I mean, if you were GMGM, you have to ice a line up...why move guys like Karlsson, Lindberg, or Haula? If I was able to get them, I wouldn't trade them right away either. And now that VGK are doing decent, I really wouldn't trade them. A lot of other teams operate the same way. So it's not just about value for value trades. Availability and long term roster building is important to 31 teams, not just 1 team. We know so little about what goes on behind closed doors. Who knows if they would have even given Moore a second thought if he was available? To criticize JR for the roster we currently have by saying "but we could have signed Moore and done these trades or signed this person" is incredibly short-sighted and in most cases, a bad argument because you (we) have so little access to the facts of the matter.

Now if someone on the inside spells out what the options were at the time and releases audio of phone calls between GMs...then there could be an objective debate of whether or not JR and Co did the right thing or not. That would even be tossing the fact that performance from year to year with players in the 1-2mil region tends to be a crap shoot.

To the bolded, that's my point. Karlsson is likely unavailable except for stupid overpayment now. You have to remember that over the summer, Ship was supposed to be their number 1 center. So up the middle they had Ship, Eakins, Karlsson, Lindberg at wing, Haula at wing, Bellemare as well as Marsh who can play some center.

I don't know this for a fact, we never do yet still critique GM's on incomplete information ALL THE TIME, but I have to think over the summer GMGM was open for business if a team REALLY wanted a player. JR more than many other teams, had a big need at 3C. A lot of teams are looking for 1 and 2C's and everyone can use more center depth, but I can't think of a contending team that needed a legit 3C more than Pittsburgh.

I think it's fair to say that if JR offered up a 1st+ for Karlsson that GMGM would have thought long and hard about moving him. That's a nice shiny asset for the rebuild and would have been a feather in his cap while still icing a "competitive" team. So my critique of JR is not being more proactive in addressing the center situation over the summer before Vegas really knew what they had with these players. Now it's going to be a lot harder to do, particularly if Vegas is still in the playoff hunt by the deadline. Long term success is their priority, but nothing builds a rabid fanbase like playoff hockey, particularly in the 1st year of a franchise.

Hey maybe JR offered a 1st and GMGM said no. I doubt it, but we have no idea.

 

[Phil68]

When the Penguins had the chance, why didn't we go after Hanzal. There were pretty decent 3rd line center of off season. Or even why didn't we go after athanasiou

 

[Shady Machine]

When the Penguins had the chance, why didn't we go after Hanzal. There were pretty decent 3rd line center of off season. Or even why didn't we go after athanasiou

I'm guessing they didn't want to spend over 4MM on a 3C that's not particularly fleet of foot and has a fairly extensive injury history. Even though he signed a fairly reasonable deal, 4.75MM would have been tough to fit in without other moves to send out money.

It's a fair question to ask though.

 

[Nakawick]

I'll rephrase that: I think Archibald is a better player for the Pens than Reaves. Our identity has been speed and Archy can bring the sort of speed and spark that I don't think Reaves can right now. This is a stretch where I'd be sitting Reaves if the other team doesn't have a resident idiot.

Fair enough, I guess I am less high on Archibald than most folks.

 

[Tom Hanks]

When the Penguins had the chance, why didn't we go after Hanzal. There were pretty decent 3rd line center of off season. Or even why didn't we go after athanasiou

I think he always had his heart set on Duchene as the big fish and Hanzal was pretty expensive for what he is. Does AA play much centre?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If Vegas and another team or two surprise this year that will always open up new 3C trade possibilities as other teams drop out of contention.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Fair enough, I guess I am less high on Archibald than most folks.

Not like there's a huge gap or anything but Archy brings more of that sparkplug aggressive forecheck mentality that's fed our success, and shown a bit of a scoring touch too. Reaves obviously has other strengths.

 

[Nakawick]

I will be interesting to see what JR is willing to part with to fill the hole. A lot depends on who is available or will become available. I would expect that Sheary, Hagelin, Sheahan, our 1st and most prospects are on the table.

 

[Phil68]

The only thing i can think at this point is if we go and get another winger then add put Guentzel as a 3rd line center

 

[Shady Machine]

If Vegas and another team or two surprise this year that will always open up new 3C trade possibilities as other teams drop out of contention.

I'm not so sure. There is SO much parity these days that most teams aren't selling. As an example, the 2nd through 8th teams in the Metro are separated by 5 points and Carolina has 3 games in hand on everybody else. At most, 2 teams in each division will be realistically out of it by the deadline and I'd guess that might be wishful thinking. Right now it looks like Florida, Buffalo, and Arizona are the 3. Everyone else is in play with teams like Anaheim, Edmonton, and Minnesota looking like the other weak links out West. Do you really believe those teams won't be in the hunt at the deadline?

It's early still, so other teams may be selling, but I think it will probably have to be a hockey trade to address the 3C spot if we are going to do it.

 

[Nakawick]

The only thing i can think at this point is if we go and get another winger then add put Guentzel as a 3rd line center

Its possible we can upgrade 3c and LW. Sheary and Sheahan for a center upgrade and Hagelin and 1st and/or propect for a upgrade at LW. Bring Sprong up to play RW and keep Rust on LW

 

[billybudd]

I agree with your larger point, but we JUST traded for Reaves. We haven't seen the end of the tunnel on that trade yet, but it was pretty clearly an overpayment from the start. The 1st for Perron deal didn't work out, but the logic behind it was sound.

Tunnel? Come on, now. Sundqvist has less points than Reaves on a team that's playing a lot better than we are--and he didn't fit with the "speed" identity any more than Reaves does.

In terms of "JR overpayments" in a Pens trade (such as they can be argued to be), Reaves doesn't even make the top 3 (Perron trade, Winnik trade, Despres trade). And frankly, he's been playing better than 5 or 6 other guys for the last month (I'll agree he was brutal for the first 5 games or so, and said that then).

 

[Peat]

Not like there's a huge gap or anything but Archy brings more of that sparkplug aggressive forecheck mentality that's fed our success, and shown a bit of a scoring touch too. Reaves obviously has other strengths.

I'd like to see the two of them given chances together tbh. Archibald's speed would help gloss over Reaves' relative lack of mobility.

 

[Shady Machine]

Tunnel? Come on, now. Sundqvist has less points than Reaves on a team that's playing a lot better than we are--and he didn't fit with the "speed" identity any more than Reaves does.

In terms of "JR overpayments" in a Pens trade (such as they can be argued to be), Reaves doesn't even make the top 3 (Perron trade, Winnik trade, Despres trade). And frankly, he's been playing better than 5 or 6 other guys for the last month (I'll agree he was brutal for the first 5 games or so, and said that then).

Are you forgetting that 1st rounder we swapped for the 2nd? The original post you replied to was discussing having Kostin on our AHL team. That has nothing to do with Sunny, although I still liked the player so if I'm proven wrong on him, I'll own up to it. I know the argument is that we would have taken Lauzon anyway, but personally I think that argument is crap.

 

[Pens x]

Its possible we can upgrade 3c and LW. Sheary and Sheahan for a center upgrade and Hagelin and 1st and/or propect for a upgrade at LW. Bring Sprong up to play RW and keep Rust on LW

Why would any GM bother with Sheahan at this point though? The time to trade Hags was this summer, you know, during those 3 months where we didn’t do anything.

Sheahan has as much value as a Chris Kunitz Pens’ jersey.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think the fact that JR was in on Duchene, and made a legitimate offer, says he and Sully know things are not right and something needs to be done. I like that. I'm just hoping he doesn't overpay, and he ends up landing someone that's a good fit. I'm not really sold on anything he's been able to do since the Cup.

 

[SEALBound]

To the bolded, that's my point. Karlsson is likely unavailable except for stupid overpayment now. You have to remember that over the summer, Ship was supposed to be their number 1 center. So up the middle they had Ship, Eakins, Karlsson, Lindberg at wing, Haula at wing, Bellemare as well as Marsh who can play some center.

I don't know this for a fact, we never do yet still critique GM's on incomplete information ALL THE TIME, but I have to think over the summer GMGM was open for business if a team REALLY wanted a player. JR more than many other teams, had a big need at 3C. A lot of teams are looking for 1 and 2C's and everyone can use more center depth, but I can't think of a contending team that needed a legit 3C more than Pittsburgh.

I think it's fair to say that if JR offered up a 1st+ for Karlsson that GMGM would have thought long and hard about moving him. That's a nice shiny asset for the rebuild and would have been a feather in his cap while still icing a "competitive" team. So my critique of JR is not being more proactive in addressing the center situation over the summer before Vegas really knew what they had with these players. Now it's going to be a lot harder to do, particularly if Vegas is still in the playoff hunt by the deadline. Long term success is their priority, but nothing builds a rabid fanbase like playoff hockey, particularly in the 1st year of a franchise.

Hey maybe JR offered a 1st and GMGM said no. I doubt it, but we have no idea.

But did Karlsson have the value at that time? We can't sit in hindsight and critique JR for moves he didn't make. Very rarely do we ever get that privilege with any team/GM. About the most recent example would be looking at the reported offers for Duchene that Sakic vetoed for one reason or another.

If you frame the discussion as "Oh man, I wish JR could have gotten Karlsson last summer! That would have been sweet!", that's one thing. But to say "Damn JR! Why didn't he get Karlsson for XYZ when he had the chance!? Grrrrr to JR!" is shortsighted and an incomplete argument. We have no idea what GMGM wanted to do with Karlsson. We have no idea of the cost/value. We don't know that JR didn't try to get him and got shot down. Hell, we DO know he made a late push for Duchene...something like Sheary, Sprong, 1st? So the only thing we can really say is that JR obviously sees the need for a better 3C and is willing to make the deals to try to get that.

It's not like Duchene went for a song and JR said they had zero interest. I'm sure if there are moves that can make the team better for the right price, that JR and Co is exploring them. At the very least, JR HAS earned that benefit of the doubt. Sometimes moves pan out, sometimes they don't. Perron didn't pan, but Hags did. Bonino panned out. Kessel panned out. Lovejoy for Despres...meh. Reaves may or may not. Sheahan doesn't look like it's panning out the way they hope. Goc and Winnik didn't pan out. There's a lot of give and take but at least JR is willing to make the moves. We can't always blame him for moves he didn't make because we wanted him to make them.

Damn JR for not trading Maatta for Hall at the time! What was he thinking!

When the Penguins had the chance, why didn't we go after Hanzal. There were pretty decent 3rd line center of off season. Or even why didn't we go after athanasiou

Older, slower, oft injured, way overpaid. Any further questions?

I think he always had his heart set on Duchene as the big fish and Hanzal was pretty expensive for what he is. Does AA play much centre?

Not in the NHL. He's been wing the entire time. Detroit wanted a comparable player too, not futures or prospects. Probably would have cost Jake, Sheary, or Rust.

Are you forgetting that 1st rounder we swapped for the 2nd? The original post you replied to was discussing having Kostin on our AHL team. That has nothing to do with Sunny, although I still liked the player so if I'm proven wrong on him, I'll own up to it. I know the argument is that we would have taken Lauzon anyway, but personally I think that argument is crap.

Still want a smidgen of proof that we would have taken Kostin with the 1st. Anything whatsoever. Until then, it's a BS argument.

 

[pokey10]

"Im mad at Shero for not getting Parise."