Player Discussion Ryan Nugent-Hopkins '16-17 and Beyond

[I am the Liquor]

That's very obvious to most people, yes.

It's also well known that Nuge isn't the regular bar/night club patron around town as some other Oilers are very famous for in those circles.

Gretzky was in the bar all the time back in the day. So are most young people that age. So what?

 

[I am the Liquor]

Small, weak and oft injured. He has skill and is not a kitty cat. Hopefully he gained some size/strength over the summer and can stay healthy. Time will tell if he recaptures his rookie season magic or if he becomes Son of Snowpants. (SoS)

 

[Tyrolean]

Small, weak and oft injured. He has skill and is not a kitty cat. Hopefully he gained some size/strength over the summer and can stay healthy. Time will tell if he recaptures his rookie season magic or if he becomes Son of Snowpants. (SoS)

More the latter.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Not what I Stated. What I did say is that Drai is very early into growing his confidence in the NHL and has had precious little time to do that. he found magic with Hall and the team once again devalues that productive experience that a player is having and removes it from him.

We did that with Gagner/Penner

We did that with Yak/Roy

Now the team doing it with Drai/Hall

its just a narrative that to me says we really don't care about players being mentored, they shouldn't need it, whack, and off they are on their own.

It hasn't been a very successful strategy pulling the rug out from players when they hit a good stride.

ftr I've stated Drai will recover from this but that he will struggle somewhat this season. He's still learning the NHL now he's doing it without one of the best forwards in the league.

Then why not keep Nuge and throw him to the wolves while Drai gets to come up behind McDavid and RNH? Even if you think that Drai is the superior player, sheltering him like RNH never got the opportunity to be could do wonders for him long term.

Gagner is barely a NHLer at this point (haven't been paying attention, has he signed anywhere yet?), Penner had motivation issues, Yak has too many issues to even get started on and Roy isn't a NHLer at this point at least by NHL GM's eyes.

Small, weak and oft injured. He has skill and is not a kitty cat. Hopefully he gained some size/strength over the summer and can stay healthy. Time will tell if he recaptures his rookie season magic or if he becomes Son of Snowpants. (SoS)

He said that he has been working on his shot and explosiveness in his first 3 steps so you'd think that those are strength related training activities. He took a BIG step back last season, if he has another season like last year back to back his value will be very poor.

 

[Belieber]

His strength wouldn't matter if he played a purely skilled game but since he defends large centers in this division he needs it more than say Patty Kane, who btw I believe nuge could beat in an arm wrestling match, might be the only guy in the league he could beat but I doubt Henrik Sedin could at his age either and look what happened there, some of you would've ran Sedin out of town by 2004.

My concerns are strength against the centers he has to play against and his cap hit but right now we need him and to eat minutes badly, I fear he'll be gone next summer but hope I'm wrong.

 

[rboomercat90]

Something about Nuge golfing fits. More than playing hockey in WC. Hopefully he'll take up golf somewhere else.

This guy doesn't give two ***** about anything. Hall and Eberle at least get bothered and frustrated with losing. this guys aw shucks attitude. ****, its like Schultz.

I've always felt that the losing bothered Hall, it was actually pretty obvious on the ice. I never got the same feeling from Eberle though. He looked like he didn't care either way. Just like someone who had been mentored by Shawn Horcoff might. He'd use the same cliches in the media and just move on to the next game.

 

[Draiskull]

Small, weak and oft injured. He has skill and is not a kitty cat. Hopefully he gained some size/strength over the summer and can stay healthy. Time will tell if he recaptures his rookie season magic or if he becomes Son of Snowpants. (SoS)

RNH is pretty much the same height and same weight as McDavid right now and actually played more games than him last season..

Just saying!!

Also, besides his rookie season he had back to back 56pt seasons so calling him a proven 50pt player should be the minimum.

 

[Replacement*]

Don't blame the thread for the actions of the few.

Besides a few with a clear bias agenda the topic is sound.

I am a firm believer in Nuge his past, present, and future. But he did have an off year and it will be interesting to see if he can elevate his game further or at least regain how he played the year before.

How he played the year before is having around a measly 34pts heading into March of that season. Only an outlier hot march, and 19pts in tht one month got him the 56 pts that year. It was an outlier month that he hasn't come close to. In last two seasons its the only time he's had as many as 10pts in any month.

The unfortunate thing is aside from March 2015 theres been precious few times in recent seasons where Nuge is on and being any kind of force.

 

[Replacement*]

Then why not keep Nuge and throw him to the wolves while Drai gets to come up behind McDavid and RNH? Even if you think that Drai is the superior player, sheltering him like RNH never got the opportunity to be could do wonders for him long term.

Gagner is barely a NHLer at this point (haven't been paying attention, has he signed anywhere yet?), Penner had motivation issues, Yak has too many issues to even get started on and Roy isn't a NHLer at this point at least by NHL GM's eyes.



He said that he has been working on his shot and explosiveness in his first 3 steps so you'd think that those are strength related training activities. He took a BIG step back last season, if he has another season like last year back to back his value will be very poor.

Drai is more suited to the WC. I think we can agree on that. The conference has clearly moved to a point where Centers ideally need to be more physical, have more strength, and the WC game has moved in new directions where its pretty hard to put out a Gagner, Nuge type player at Center. Just the way it is.

This year we will have the 3 centers anyway. Next season will be different I expect.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Drai is more suited to the WC. I think we can agree on that. The conference has clearly moved to a point where Centers ideally need to be more physical, have more strength, and the WC game has moved in new directions where its pretty hard to put out a Gagner, Nuge type player at Center. Just the way it is.

This year we will have the 3 centers anyway. Next season will be different I expect.

Sure thing, meanwhile with a younger Kopitar, Thornton, Getzlaf, etc. you were pumping the tires on keeping Gagner who is a weaker and poorer defensive player than RNH. Seems to me like this is payback for all of the crap that Gagner had tossed his way. Difference is that RNH will bounce back whether it's here or elsewhere.

 

[Replacement*]

Sure thing, meanwhile with a younger Kopitar, Thornton, Getzlaf, etc. you were pumping the tires on keeping Gagner who is a weaker and poorer defensive player than RNH. Seems to me like this is payback for all of the crap that Gagner had tossed his way. Difference is that RNH will bounce back whether it's here or elsewhere.

Yeah I could see Nuge having more success in EC if he wants to work hard for it. Again I don't blame players but this org made guys like Gagner, Nuge, sated, or at least it seems, and some are susceptible to that. I would be.

Throw me 50M and I don't know you'd see another day of hard work from me.

I was consistent with this with Schultz too. Not blaming the players, the org created this entitlement. But I am sick of seeing it.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Yeah I could see Nuge having more success in EC if he wants to work hard for it. Again I don't blame players but this org made guys like Gagner, Nuge, sated, or at least it seems, and some are susceptible to that. I would be.

Throw me 50M and I don't know you'd see another day of hard work from me.

I was consistent with this with Schultz too. Not blaming the players, the org created this entitlement. But I am sick of seeing it.

Schultz is a completely different animal, comparing Gagner or RNH to Schultz is a big time disservice to them. As far as I see Gagner and RNH have more compete than Schultz ever had. Hall moving on means that it's time for RNH to step up and take on a bigger role offensively. I believe him to be capable and IMO not always having #4 calling for the puck should end up benefiting his game as an individual. If RNH didn't give a damn he wouldn't have worked hard on getting better defensively. My question is whether or not his brother is adequate as a trainer for him, I don't see a lack of work from RNH but I do see a lack of results physically minus the '14-15 season.

 

[I am the Liquor]

RNH is pretty much the same height and same weight as McDavid right now and actually played more games than him last season..

Just saying!!

Also, besides his rookie season he had back to back 56pt seasons so calling him a proven 50pt player should be the minimum.

If you're saying he has the body of an 18yr old I can't disagree.

 

[Spawn]

He said that he has been working on his shot and explosiveness in his first 3 steps so you'd think that those are strength related training activities. He took a BIG step back last season, if he has another season like last year back to back his value will be very poor.

He didn't take a big step backward. He was the exact same player he was the season before and has been since his second year, he just didn't have that super hot 20 game stretch to float his season. It wasn't a step back, it was a return to the norm.

 

[Roof Daddy]

Gretzky was in the bar all the time back in the day. So are most young people that age. So what?

It was the 80's though. Guy LaFleur was sparking a dart in the dressing room, Mario smoked 2 packs a day, and off-season training for most guys started September 1st. A lot has changed in 30 years. I'm not necessarily saying there's a correlation between a player's performance and his off ice lifestyle (ROR seems to play just fine), but I think most GM's would prefer a guy stay out of the bars, and it's a little more conducive to maintaining dedication to the game/training.

 

[Vanqu1sh]

He didn't take a big step backward. He was the exact same player he was the season before and has been since his second year, he just didn't have that super hot 20 game stretch to float his season. It wasn't a step back, it was a return to the norm.

He's scored in the same vicinity for PPG every season. 0.84, 0.6, 0.7, 0.74, 0.62. Averages to 50-60 points a year. PK, PP, top line ES, two-way conscience, and those are years 18-22. Not many more accomplished centers in the league at his age TBH.

Needs more consistent even-strength play and better faceoffs, and he's not only worth his contract but definitely a high-impact player that helps you win.

Everyone basically wanted him to turn in to Mcdavid but he doesn't even have to be that anymore since we have Mcdavid. He's our 2nd best player as it currently stands, some people have bad memories of him at the forefront of their mind, but there's lots of good to focus on too.

 

[McShogun99]

Gretzky was in the bar all the time back in the day. So are most young people that age. So what?

Can't compare athletes in the 80's to today. Back then there was no off season training, no diet plans and lots of booze and cocaine.

 

[Vanqu1sh]

Nuge's last season wasn't good and that always leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. It's always what have you done for me lately, and players always bounce back. Not just Oilers players, happens all over these boards.

If we look at his 2 season's previous to this one (age 20 and 21), he finished 27th and 26th in scoring for Centers. Adding the 2 years together puts him at 25th (this is just using the position filter on nhl.com, could be off by a couple spots). Not a single name above him on that list is younger than him, Mackinnon and Monahan are 36th and 40th respectively, and the next up that are younger than him. Scheifele, Zibanejad are next at 54 and 58 (same draft years). 79 points for Zibby at the bottom of the spectrum and and 112 for RNH at the top.

When has a player entering his 23 y/o season, who has been previously established in the league, ever come in and been a bust like is being talked about here. I think people need to re-define their expectations and maybe open their mind to some more facts before writing off players.

The fact is that there are very few players of RNH's caliber around. Sure he had a disappointing season, and he's a disappointment in terms of the caliber of player he is for #1 OV, but he's still a very good and useful player. Just because we as fans set huge expectations for small teenagers doesn't make it reality. People will be disappointed because a player didn't reach their fictional standard of him, and then run him through the mud with a bunch of BS.

 

[McGoMcD]

Nuge's last season wasn't good and that always leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. It's always what have you done for me lately, and players always bounce back. Not just Oilers players, happens all over these boards.

If we look at his 2 season's previous to this one (age 20 and 21), he finished 27th and 26th in scoring for Centers. Adding the 2 years together puts him at 25th (this is just using the position filter on nhl.com, could be off by a couple spots). Not a single name above him on that list is younger than him, Mackinnon and Monahan are 36th and 40th respectively, and the next up that are younger than him. Scheifele, Zibanejad are next at 54 and 58 (same draft years). 79 points for Zibby at the bottom of the spectrum and and 112 for RNH at the top.

When has a player entering his 23 y/o season, who has been previously established in the league, ever come in and been a bust like is being talked about here. I think people need to re-define their expectations and maybe open their mind to some more facts before writing off players.

The fact is that there are very few players of RNH's caliber around. Sure he had a disappointing season, and he's a disappointment in terms of the caliber of player he is for #1 OV, but he's still a very good and useful player. Just because we as fans set huge expectations for small teenagers doesn't make it reality. People will be disappointed because a player didn't reach their fictional standard of him, and then run him through the mud with a bunch of BS.

Great post, I am not sure why but many on these boards consistently over rate Hall and under rate Nuge. IF it was Nuge for Larsson people would be happy. Yet, I will take Nuge over Hall, they are at least quite close.

As mentioned in other post. Hall averages 70 points per 82 games while Nuge averages 58. For a guy a year and a half younger who is light years better defensively. Not bad.

 

[Philly85*]

all I will say is, regardless of what some analytics may show, either positive or negative, or people's agendas for or against this player, I was disappointed with his season last year. He looked neutered at points. No passion, no urgency. Butter soft. But he still managed to play pretty decent all things considered. He's had a few set backs, and now with another off season and time to decompress, let things breath a bit, my hopes for the player are beginning to climb again.

Due to his slight frame, I expect him to be the kind of player that will really take off in his mid to late 20's and be a late bloomer, almost exclusively because of his body type.

I'd also like to see more intensity, or urgency in his game, more willingness to actually assert himself in key moments and take games over with his skill and playmaking, to push the pace. He was way too passive most of the season, it was frustrating to watch. Night and day from the kid we saw in his rookie season who was just going out there and playing.

In any case I hope they keep him around because their centre depth with him included can be top 3 in the NHL. They are a better team with him than without (for example in a trade for a player like Barrie, I'd rather just keep RNH), and I expect another bigger step up this season. Interesting to see how he reacts without Hall in the fold as well.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Can't compare athletes in the 80's to today. Back then there was no off season training, no diet plans and lots of booze and cocaine.

We are talking about going to the bar for a few drinks. People did it back then and they do it today and will do it tomorrow.

To use that to sleight a player is pretty weak. Bottom line is are they doing their job on the ice or not? The rest is tabloid lunch wagon talk.

 

[Vanqu1sh]

Great post, I am not sure why but many on these boards consistently over rate Hall and under rate Nuge. IF it was Nuge for Larsson people would be happy. Yet, I will take Nuge over Hall, they are at least quite close.

As mentioned in other post. Hall averages 70 points per 82 games while Nuge averages 58. For a guy a year and a half younger who is light years better defensively. Not bad.

Thanks, though my aim was to show Nuge in a positive light, and not have him compared to Hall. Because I think even basic numbers like points are misrepresenting these players that honestly have been put in quite different situations.

Hall is more physically mature, plays an easier position, and straight up just has more talent for putting the puck in the net than Nuge does. That's alright, but Hall isn't on our team anymore so maybe now Nuge can be appreciated for Nuge.

My point was that there aren't many young and dominant centers in the league. I think everyone remembers what happened when Hall played C. The position isn't easy and carries a lot of responsibility.

A couple posts above Spawn is essentially saying he sees no difference between Hall and RNH defensively. Hall is a winger and has minimal defensive responsibility to begin with. How many times has Hall ever even made a defensive play...pretty strong indictment of whatever defensive metrics are being looked at. By virtue of position Nuge has to be much more involved defensively, and it's not something he's turned a blind eye to. He has much to learn and improve on the defensive side but he's on the right track.

 

[McDNicks17]

RNH needs to have a major bounce back on the defensive side of the puck for it to be considered a strong suit of his again, IMO.

He stunk up the place in that regard last season.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

He didn't take a big step backward. He was the exact same player he was the season before and has been since his second year, he just didn't have that super hot 20 game stretch to float his season. It wasn't a step back, it was a return to the norm.

IIRC it was his best ES production season and he had a career high in goals scored. Had our PP been better he would've easily topped his career high of 56 points that season. The 20 game stretch floated his season almost as much as Hall's 30 game stretch did his this season same for Drai who many are ready to hand the reigns over to?

Every Hall fan that isn't a RNH fan is quick to point out that RNH leaches off of him yet that was the best that RNH has played since before he got hurt in his rookie season and Hall was not on his line for much of his success in '14-15.

Besides the eye test there are a number of things that point to that as being a very good season for him to date and better than every other season since his rookie season where he broke onto the scene like gangbusters.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

RNH needs to have a major bounce back on the defensive side of the puck for it to be considered a strong suit of his again, IMO.

He stunk up the place in that regard last season.

He had a poor season period. Even if his stats say that he was on pace for 50ish points he played very poorly almost all season long. For this reason I think that it was injury related. If it wasn't I hope that he did some soul searching this offseason because his play was completely unacceptable and this is coming from a big fan of his.