Proposal: Rumors and Proposals Thread | Under Sell and Over Deliver or Stuck in First Gear?

[PumpkinBomb]

Well the issue that was reported in Calgary was he tended to keep to himself and spend time in museums when he was away from the rink.

They basically implied they didn’t like the fact he was a bit of a loner.

That was code for he didn't do cocaine.
Neither did Smith or Neal.
Source: Me, i was at a bar in scottsdale; the flames flew in from Vegas that night to party away from cameras. I ended up talking to James Neal most of the night while most of the rest of the team was doing questionable things. Smith wasn't even there; must have stayed at the hotel. Not going to say who was doing what as i don't think the mods would like that too much. But who wasn't doing anything, or not there, and then not being on the team the next year was pretty telling.

 

[Staghorn]

Turning back to Neal and Koskinen.. Both players are brutal, worth FAR less than a base replacement player JUST on ability to play alone. Both have TERRIBLE contracts with huge cap hits. I think it makes sense to buy them both out, and recoup the salary dollars next year into one decent player, or upgrading two existing players. YES you would have the existing pain and scars for years forward, but the Oilers need to make this team better for NEXT year, and worry less about Years 2, 3 and so on... A winning team cannot keep floating Koskinen out there every 3rd or 4th game and expect to be successful. That money is being blown.

 

[Little Fury]

So he had nothing to do with bringing JP and signing Barrie? Two pretty key players for us. He also brought Smith back for what might have been the best year of his career. Was it a plan Z? Who knows. But the results speak for themselves no matter how anyone wants to try and spin it.

He gets some credit for repairing the bridge with JP. Barrie was kind of a no-brainer since he apparently turned down at least two better offers to join the Oilers to juice his numbers with McDrai. Smith was a last-ditch gamble that could have turned out horribly; the credit goes to the player for changing his game and playing well.

 

[GOilers88]

He gets some credit for repairing the bridge with JP. Barrie was kind of a no-brainer since he apparently turned down at least two better offers to join the Oilers to juice his numbers with McDrai. Smith was a last-ditch gamble that could have turned out horribly; the credit goes to the player for changing his game and playing well.

Credit to the player that the GM signed. Gotcha.
People sure were willing to shit all over him for re-signing him because it was a bad idea, but I'll be damned if he gets credit when it worked out.

Can we apply this logic to the signings that didn't work out? It should be on the players for underperforming, not the GM for signing them in the first place.

 

[Little Fury]

Credit to the player that the GM signed. Gotcha.

The player the GM signed because he didn't have any other options, yes.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

The player the GM signed because he didn't have any other options, yes.

Smith? There were other options, they likely wouldn't have worked, but don't pretend Smith was the only goalie in the ether to sign.

 

[Little Fury]

Smith? There were other options, they likely wouldn't have worked, but don't pretend Smith was the only goalie in the ether to sign.

To be honest, the fact he didn't try harder to upgrade the position and just went back to the guy he knew after striking out on Markstrom isn't exactly a great defense of Holland's GMing.

 

[CupofOil]

The player the GM signed because he didn't have any other options, yes.

It's ridiculous the gymnastics some of you guys will go through to discredit Holland for.... reasons.
Barrie was a "no brainer", "Smith was a last ditch game that could have turned out horribly (even though it didn't so who cares)".

All the time GMs have fallback plans that they resort to when the other options are feasible. The fact remains that Smith was a Holland signing and he should get credit for that. Another GM might not have identified Smith as a good fall back plan and signed somebody like Aaron Dell instead who so many around here were pining for, if you want to play the "what if" game.

Point being that you can't criticize Holland for the bad moves he makes then, in the same token, put asterisks on the good moves he did make.

 

[McJadeddog]

Except that it's a disingenuous argument since McDavid has been going supernova since his rookie season and Draisaitl scored 50 goals and 105 points when they were bottom 10 in the league so no, the team didn't jump from bottom 10 to top 10 in the league solely because McDrai all of a sudden starting scoring a lot. They were great players when the team finished bottom 10, they were great players when the team finished top 10. It's not like they all of a sudden turned into elite players overnight.

There are a couple of other reasons why the team vastly improved. Defense playing better, goaltending was better and the PK was a lot better, Yamamoto and Bear's emergence last season, Puljujarvi this season, Barrie addition this season both being on the roster due to Holland. Could be coaching too but there's no way to quantify that.
Also, the addition of Neal as a net front presence aided the PP which was good prior to his addition and became great afterwards last season.

Obviously, McDavid and Draisaitl drive all the offense but there are other factors that improved the overall team performance.

I would argue that McDrai taking the defensive side of the game a LOT more seriously these past couple of years (especially Drai) has had as much impact as those other items. They were scoring lots of points the entire time, as you mention, but they weren't 200-foot players until recently.

You are right about defense playing better for sure. The emergence of Nurse as a legit top-pairing, maybe even poor-mans true #1, can't be over-stated in its importance.

I'll give you Pulj this year as well, and Holland should be given all the credit on that one for sure. I kinda forgot about that to be honest, so my bad on that one. If Pulj can continue to trend into a real top-6 player, Holland should get full marks for repairing that relationship. I"ll give him credit for signing Barrie, although that was somewhat fluky as the player fell in his lap, but he signed the deal and it turned out, so he needs to be given credit, just like when a signing doesn't turn out like Kassian. I don't see goaltending being better as having anything to do with Holland at all really. Nor the improvements of Bear and Yams, as they weren't his picks. If Holloway ends up being a contributor or Broberg turns things around, then Holland should get credit for those picks. Not looking good at all on Broberg right now though.

 

[CupofOil]

I would argue that McDrai taking the defensive side of the game a LOT more seriously these past couple of years (especially Drai) has had as much impact as those other items. They were scoring lots of points the entire time, as you mention, but they weren't 200-foot players until recently.

You are right about defense playing better for sure. The emergence of Nurse as a legit top-pairing, maybe even poor-mans true #1, can't be over-stated in its importance.

I'll give you Pulj this year as well, and Holland should be given all the credit on that one for sure. I kinda forgot about that to be honest, so my bad on that one. If Pulj can continue to trend into a real top-6 player, Holland should get full marks for repairing that relationship. I"ll give him credit for signing Barrie, although that was somewhat fluky as the player fell in his lap, but he signed the deal and it turned out, so he needs to be given credit, just like when a signing doesn't turn out like Kassian. I don't see goaltending being better as having anything to do with Holland at all really. Nor the improvements of Bear and Yams, as they weren't his picks. If Holloway ends up being a contributor or Broberg turns things around, then Holland should get credit for those picks. Not looking good at all on Broberg right now though.

He signed Smith.

Bear and Yamamoto I was just using as an example of other factors of improvement, last year in particular which could be tied to coaching but who knows.

With that said, Holland has yet to truly make his mark on the team and bring in a supporting cast that could lead to long term success and I understand the skepticism about his ability to do so, so still lots of work to be done on that front. I'm just saying that the improvement the last two seasons is not all due to McDrai. I'd also say that last season (two seasons ago now I guess?) was one of McDavid's worst as a pro relative to his usual standard of excellence so I'm not sure I'd classify his 200 ft game as much improved that season. I do think both players improved quite a bit defensively this season though.

 

[Little Fury]

It's ridiculous the gymnastics some of you guys will go through to discredit Holland for.... reasons.
Barrie was a "no brainer", "Smith was a last ditch game that could have turned out horribly (even though it didn't so who cares)".

Nothing I said was false. Again, Barrie reportedly had two better offers and Smith was a fallback option,

All the time GMs have fallback plans that they resort to when the other options are feasible. The fact remains that Smith was a Holland signing and he should get credit for that. Another GM might not have identified Smith as a good fall back plan and signed somebody like Aaron Dell instead who so many around here were pining for, if you want to play the "what if" game.

I don't think re-signing a 38 year old goalie you already had and who probably wasn't getting a bunch of better offers after you get rejected by your main target is a piece of inspired GMing worth gushing over.

Point being that you can't criticize Holland for the bad moves he makes then, in the same token, put asterisks on the good moves he did make.

I can and will.

 

[CupofOil]

Nothing I said was false. Again, Barrie reportedly had two better offers and Smith was a fallback option,

I don't think re-signing a 38 year old goalie you already had and who probably wasn't getting a bunch of better offers after you get rejected by your main target is a piece of inspired GMing worth gushing over.

I can and will.

More gymnastics, and I never "gushed" over the move. I just said he deserves credit for signing Smith and Barrie, not that it was a stroke of genius. You can claim that any GM was "lucky" or "unlucky" with just about every single move if you dive deep into it.

So at least you admit that you have an obvious bias when assessing Holland. Kind of hard to have an honest debate with somebody who puts asterisks next to every good move and doesn't do the same with the bad moves.

 

[Little Fury]

Except that it's a disingenuous argument since McDavid has been going supernova since his rookie season and Draisaitl scored 50 goals and 105 points when they were bottom 10 in the league so no, the team didn't jump from bottom 10 to top 10 in the league solely because McDrai all of a sudden starting scoring a lot. They were great players when the team finished bottom 10, they were great players when the team finished top 10. It's not like they all of a sudden turned into elite players overnight.

Do you not understand that both players are scoring at much higher rates now than they were under Chiarelli? If McDavid scored at the same rate over 82 games as he did this season, he would have finished with almost 40 more points than he did in 18-19. That's kind of a massive difference.

 

[Little Fury]

More gymnastics, and I never "gushed" over the move. I just said he deserves credit for signing Smith, not that it was a stroke of genius.

So at least you admit that you have an obvious bias when assessing Holland. Kind of hard to have an honest debate with somebody who puts asterisks next to every good move and doesn't do the same with the bad moves.

OK if it makes you happy I'll give him a tiny bit of credit for making a low-effort move that could have blown up in his face but fortunately did not (though it kind of did in the playoffs.)

 

[CupofOil]

OK if it makes you happy I'll give him a tiny bit of credit for making a low-effort move that could have blown up in his face but fortunately did not (though it kind of did in the playoffs.)

But it didn't "blow up in his face" so what's the point in even saying that?
He signed Smith, Smith was arguably a top 5 goalie this season. Bottom line. How he got there doesn't really matter, at all.

 

[Little Fury]

But it didn't "blow up in his face" so what's the point in even saying that?

He signed Smith, Smith was arguably a top 5 goalie this season. Bottom line. How he got there doesn't really matter, at all.

So making bad bets is good if you actually beat the odds? Can't say I agree with that kind of thinking or want that in a GM.

 

[CupofOil]

So making bad bets is good if you actually beat the odds? Can't say I agree with that kind of thinking or want that in a GM.

More gymnastics.

Since we're playing the gymnastics game, I'll play.
He traded for AA knowing that he could handle the qualifying offer in a rapidly rising cap world then, boom, Covid hit and screwed all that up.
AA was a good bet to provide secondary scoring because he was roughly a 20-30 goal player every season then only had 1 goal in 9 games. That seemed like a "good bet" but it "blew up in his face" because of Covid and worse production than he ever had in the league (small sample size and all) so we should probably give him a bit of a mulligan for that.

Of course that's stupid to dismiss it because it's a bad move at the end of the day.