Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XIV: There ain't no gettin' off of this train we're on

[GregSirico]

I think Marc Staal is totally tradeable now.

1. He's played well this year.
2. His contract is for 5.7 x 3 - if Rangers eat a portion of it, it becomes palatable to move.
3. He for sure would go play in Carolina with his brother.
4. Carolina could use him on the 3rd pairing.
5. Carolina needs a goalie, why not throw the idea of a goalie prospect at them to sweeten the deal?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm not an extreme "youth movement" guy. I don't think the players have an expiration date like milk. But we need to have some consistency that lasts more than a month.

McDonagh is a year away from ufa and has been accumulating injuries. Karlsson is a year away from ufa and has been accumulating injuries. We traded a captain because the salary potential was scary in the face of a breaking down body.

I sure as hell hope the front office isn't as bipolar as the fans. It's time to build a team in the true sense of the word. Not change directions as the wind blows.

The nature of their injuries have been different.

With McDonagh it was concussions/shoulder/broken bones. Karlsson had that once freak incident with Cooke and then major foot surgery last summer which hes bounced back from. I mean I get the sentiment, but the 2 aren't even comparable in terms of wear and tear.

I wouldn't even bother even considering the pursuit of EK in a trade, but if he hits the UFA market in 2019, it would be stupid not to go after him, especially if he keeps up his level of play.

 

[Machinehead]

Karlsson would still be a top 5 defenseman if you cut his feet off

Not really worried about injuries with him

And I would cut my own feet off to get him on this team.

If a player like that hits UFA, you offer him 10.5 x 8 yesterday and make it f***ing work.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

And I would cut my own feet off to get him on this team.

If a player like that hits UFA, you offer him 10.5 x 8 yesterday and make it ****ing work.

Yup, I don't care where the team is at in the rebuild, if you can get Karlsson as a free agent I do it with zero hesitation.

He's the best D to play in this league since Lidstrom. I'd bet pretty heavily on Karlsson being a dominant player for the entirety of his next contract.

 

[Machinehead]

When has an u30 generational talent ever hit UFA?

The opportunity to sign Karlsson would be quite literally once-in-a-lifetime.

 

[aufheben]

Agree 100%

Chara is one notable exception.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I think Marc Staal is totally tradeable now.

1. He's played well this year.
2. His contract is for 5.7 x 3 - if Rangers eat a portion of it, it becomes palatable to move.
3. He for sure would go play in Carolina with his brother.
4. Carolina could use him on the 3rd pairing.
5. Carolina needs a goalie, why not throw the idea of a goalie prospect at them to sweeten the deal?

1. Hes played well, for Marc Staal.
2. Maybe if they eat 50%
3. True
4. Carolina is one of the more analytically driven teams in the league. Staal's analytics are not good.
5. They need a goalie right NOW.

If Eric ends up there again after next season, maybe we can get them to bite on Marc for 2 years at 50%. I think with the way things have played out, Staal is a lock to be here for at least 2018-19. I would obviously move him if the opportunity came up, but I think that there is actually value to keeping him around in a rebuilding situation.

 

[RangerBoy]

Totally agree. I've said it before, but if we are looking to find our best players through free agency, the rebuild has failed. Free agency should be used to supplement the roster, not to build the team's core.

It's the same people who thought this team would be a contender this season. They love those free agents. They love the big names. New toy syndrome.

The Rangers need to break it down some more this June. Continue adding younger pieces because that is the only way to build a team. The Rangers aren't even in the first year of their rebuild and some people already want them to add a big ticket free agent. What is that player going to do for the Rangers? The Islanders suck with Tavares. He has been very quiet for them down the stretch. When they needed him the most. He has disappeared. One player doesn't make much of a difference.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Win the lottery, draft Dahlin. Sign Karlsson next summer.

Future top pair of Dahlin-Karlsson. Win.

 

[darko]

And I would cut my own feet off to get him on this team.

If a player like that hits UFA, you offer him 10.5 x 8 yesterday and make it ****ing work.

f*** that. I need my feet.

 

[darko]

It's the same people who thought this team would be a contender this season. They love those free agents. They love the big names. New toy syndrome.

The Rangers need to break it down some more this June. Continue adding younger pieces because that is the only way to build a team. The Rangers aren't even in the first year of their rebuild and some people already want them to add a big ticket free agent. What is that player going to do for the Rangers? The Islanders suck with Tavares. He has been very quiet for them down the stretch. When they needed him the most. He has disappeared. One player doesn't make much of a difference.

Yup. This is not NBA where one player can make a big difference.

 

[Vitto79]

Rangers in on this college kid Brickley ?

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Rangers in on this college kid Brickley ?

I would hope so. Need to add as many quality D prospects as possible. He should see the opportunity with the current Rangers pro D situation.

 

[I Eat Crow]

It's the same people who thought this team would be a contender this season. They love those free agents. They love the big names. New toy syndrome.

The Rangers need to break it down some more this June. Continue adding younger pieces because that is the only way to build a team. The Rangers aren't even in the first year of their rebuild and some people already want them to add a big ticket free agent. What is that player going to do for the Rangers? The Islanders suck with Tavares. He has been very quiet for them down the stretch. When they needed him the most. He has disappeared. One player doesn't make much of a difference.

I don't disagree, but at some point, the Rangers need to acquire some elite young talent, not just young players for the sake of acquiring them. The Rangers latest stretch is probably going to put them in the 8-12 draft range instead of 4 to 6. There's a big talent drop off after 7th overall. Figures the Rangers will draft just outside of that.

Gorton needs to try to trade up this year. He's tried to do it at the last two drafts. Third time's a charm? This is the year to do it. Gorton has the ammo to trade up 3 or 4 spots into the top 7. Draft a player that has a chance to be a star. Wahlstrom. Hughes. Boqvist. Even Bouchard is starting to put his name in that group.

Players like Smith, Veleno, and Dobson are nice consolation prizes, but I don't see top pairing or top line potential in either. A successful rebuild needs 2 to 3 stars. A high pick or two to pan out and one more to come out of nowhere.

Pionk could be that guy to come out of nowhere and be a rock in the top 4 for the next 8 years. Another top pairing defenseman and top line forward are needed.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

I don't disagree, but at some point, the Rangers need to acquire some elite young talent, not just young players for the sake of acquiring them. The Rangers latest stretch is probably going to put them in the 8-12 draft range instead of 4 to 6. There's a big talent drop off after 7th overall. Figures the Rangers will draft just outside of that.

Gorton needs to try to trade up this year. He's tried to do it at the last two drafts. Third time's a charm? This is the year to do it. Gorton has the ammo to trade up 3 or 4 spots into the top 7. Draft a player that has a chance to be a star. Wahlstrom. Hughes. Boqvist. Even Bouchard is starting to put his name in that group.

Players like Smith, Veleno, and Dobson are nice consolation prizes, but I don't see top pairing or top line potential in either. A successful rebuild needs 2 to 3 stars. A high pick or two to pan out and one more to come out of nowhere.

Pionk could be that guy to come out of nowhere and be a rock in the top 4 for the next 8 years. Another top pairing defenseman and top line forward are needed.

If the Rangers are in the 8th or 9th spot I don't think it will take a kings ransom to trade to 5, 6 or 7.

 

[NernieBichols]

I'm not an extreme "youth movement" guy. I don't think the players have an expiration date like milk. But we need to have some consistency that lasts more than a month.

McDonagh is a year away from ufa and has been accumulating injuries. Karlsson is a year away from ufa and has been accumulating injuries. We traded a captain because the salary potential was scary in the face of a breaking down body.

I sure as hell hope the front office isn't as bipolar as the fans. It's time to build a team in the true sense of the word. Not change directions as the wind blows.

Your out to lunch on this one. Karlsson is the most unique and naturally gifted defense men since bobby Orr. Guys single handedly made Ottawa 5x better than they really are. Absolutely love mcdonagh, but it's apples and oranges.

It really could be as simple as the rangers needed to restock the organization, knew karlsson was coming up and decided they rather have the assets and money/space to go after karlsson. Instead you use the basis of trading mcdonagh as the reason they shouldn't sign karlsson. Maybe the two are intertwined, but not the way your looking at it

 

[haohmaru]

It's the same people who thought this team would be a contender this season. They love those free agents. They love the big names. New toy syndrome.

The Rangers need to break it down some more this June. Continue adding younger pieces because that is the only way to build a team. The Rangers aren't even in the first year of their rebuild and some people already want them to add a big ticket free agent. What is that player going to do for the Rangers? The Islanders suck with Tavares. He has been very quiet for them down the stretch. When they needed him the most. He has disappeared. One player doesn't make much of a difference.

Getting younger is a part of the puzzle, but it's not a slam dunk either. I'm not advocating for Karlsson, Kovalchuk, or high priced free agents but annual rebuilds through the draft ONLY don't work in a lot of cases.

Brooksie:

https://nypost.com/2018/03/25/rangers-must-not-fall-into-this-sabres-rebuilding-trap/

"Because despite drafting in top eight for each of the past five years, going back-to-back with second-overall selections in 2014 and 2015 that yielded Sam Reinhart and Jack Eichel, Buffalo not only has been eliminated from playoff participation for the eighth straight season, but is wallowing in the misery of holding the league’s worst record...

....
The Flames appear out for the seventh time in nine years, the Islanders are all but out for the eighth time in 11 years, the Canucks for the fourth time in five years, the Stars perhaps for the eighth time in 10 years, the Candy Canes facing extinction for the ninth consecutive year and the Oilers out for the 11th time in 12 years. If the Puddy Tats are out, it will be for the 15th time over the past 17 seasons.
All of these teams have one thing in common: an uncommon number of high draft picks. Well, two things in common: not have enough talent. Make that three: inferior management."

That's why you keep core pieces and/or veterans that you feel will either help the team moving forward or help with the team's youth moving forward.

It's why I'd keep Zooks. I hate Staal's contract but his buyout is prohibitive at this point where we're already eating Smith/Beleskey/Girardi $. At least, by all accounts, he's acting as a mentor for these young guys like Pionk.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

I don't think you need to keep Zucc, unless there are ongoing conversations about an extension and it's not too much more then he's making now for 3 years.

You will have more experienced guys in Names, Hayes, Fast, Zbad, Spooner, Skjei, Shattenkirk, Staal, Lundqvist and Kreider.

I think that's your group of supplemental players along with Vesey. They need top tier talent. God willing they will get a top 3 pick. Depending on the off-season moves and how the younger players progress (Andersson, Chytil, Howden, Hajek, Lindgren, Pionk) will determine what direction the team takes going into the following summer.

With a of mix priced solid supporting players and players on ELCs the Rangers will be able to take a plunge on a player like Karlsson. I would sign him. Especially with the cap likely to be in the mid $80MM range.

Makes sense if the Rangers feel Names, Spooner, Skjei, Hayes and Vesey are long term players, lock them up for longer contracts to bring the cap hit % down in relation to the cap ceiling later in their contracts.

 

[NernieBichols]

Yup. This is not NBA where one player can make a big difference.

You think Tampa is who they are without hedman, stamkos, kucherov, and now point
Same for Boston and Bergeron, Marchand, pastranask
Toronto: Matthews, marner, nylander
Pitt: Crosby, Malkin, kessel, letang
Caps: ovechkin, backstrom
Preds: Johansson, subban
Etc
Etc


You need 3-4 of these guys. Hopefully two are paid, and two are young kids that have exploded onto the scene. you sign these guys if they are available. I talked about JT for a min, but other than entertaining it for the moment. I'm not on the JT wagon. More interested in trading for draisaitl and/or seeing what it would take from Dallas/Ottawa for seguin/karlsson or hope and wait for them to become FAs. I'll go on record right now saying I'd invest close to 30 mil in cap space on a 1c, 1D, and elite (Malkin-advantage) 2c. Seguin/karlsson alone great. If edmonton is willing to trade draisaitl this summer for quality quantity, I'm in hard. And still in on seguin. I manage everything else as a rebuild. I sign UFAs who want to up their value and/or work/live/play in ny who I would trade as rentals at the deadline, take back expiring or 2year remaining deals from other teams looking to shed salary and then rent them at the deadline. I'd manage it and run it like the rebuilding it is and how you go about this. But considering the theme is not gonna to be tanking, there's absolutely no reason to not bring in these elite under 28 players if they are available.

Hfboards is playing it scared. Either scared of getting burnt by the UFA trade jinx (even though all these players including JT, are head and shoulders better than any UFA ever) or scared of entertaining the notion bc it would be your team landing one of these guys and you don't want to get your hopes up.

Y'all know how you all sound when underscoring who Erik karlsson is. Cyrlis at the post, you too bud

 

[alkurtz]

Regarding Brooks' column today regarding Buffalo and the fact that they are still treading water even after many years of drafting in the top 8 and twice having the #2 pick:

This is where I like JG's strategy: it is not just about having a few top prospects like Eichel: it is about acquiring as many prospects with NHL potential as possible, knowing that some will not pan out but by having many, a goodly number will likely be productive.

A hockey team is made up of 20+ players: unless you have more than one generational talent on a team (see the Penguins) you need a wide pool of players to choose from and build with.

2 first round picks last year, 3 on the table for this year (plus 2nd rounders), college free agents like Pionk, acquiring other teams 1st and 2nd round picks (Howden, Hajek, Lindgren), trades for younger players (Zbad, ADA), etc., is the way to go.

You can't put all your proverbial hopes on one or two players. You must have a full basket full of eggs. This is what JG appears to be doing. I think it's a great plan.

 

[jay from jersey]

Your out to lunch on this one. Karlsson is the most unique and naturally gifted defense men since bobby Orr. Guys single handedly made Ottawa 5x better than they really are. Absolutely love mcdonagh, but it's apples and oranges.

It really could be as simple as the rangers needed to restock the organization, knew karlsson was coming up and decided they rather have the assets and money/space to go after karlsson. Instead you use the basis of trading mcdonagh as the reason they shouldn't sign karlsson. Maybe the two are intertwined, but not the way your looking at it

Hi all sorry I haven't posted in a while life has been really crazy lately.

IMO the guy the rangers covet is OEL if he makes it to UFA you mind as well stencil him in as our number 1 RD for years to come. He is rock steady, young enough to be a leader with this core, and will get less money then karlsson. He may not put up as many points and is not a better player but as far as age, impact, and timing he is the one this front office is eyeing. It wouldn't suprise me one bit if we trade zucc at the draft, get another 1st and then make a deal like 2 1sts, spooner, and a 2nd for OEL signed long term. Rangers would still have 2 1st this year and possibly next year. Brenden smith"s tenure is likely over I'm sorry to say. They may give him one chance to apologize and come into camp as an Adonis but I doubt it. Next year to me is a kind of feeler year. They very well may just fill out a roster and see what we have and try to compete while clearing contracts and getting players signed and such. Moving staal out and off the books is certainly high on the priorities list. It all comes down to how much they want to compete next year. If management thinks butch and vesey have grown and andersson and chytil are legit ready then I see them making a trade for OEL and running something like

Kreider zibinajad chytil/buch

Namestikov Hayes chytil/buch

Vesey. Andersson. Fast

Rousell/grabner UFA. Nieves. ( 4th line can be a number of combos

But that would be your core on O maybe a 2 year Kovy contract for 9-10 mill total who knows what they think.

D would look like


Skjei. OEL

Pionk. Shatty

Staal/ lindgren/hajak/Gilmor/smith/ ADA/ UFA. Lots of possibilities

Hank
Georgiev


While still adding 2 1st rders to the cubboard this year and possibly next. A lot of variables all really depends on what the guys in the FO and gorts think of the players we have and the progression they have made. On the flip side I can see them trading zuc acquiring another 1st and using filler with a new coach next year as sort of a development year. I particularly do not think that approach is good because it breads a culture that can be toxic with complacency as many have pointed out with young teams such as buffalo, edmonton, Carolina,etc. with all their young talent and FA signings a lot have said they should be contending for the cup by now but that losing mediocrity culture has a way of sticking with you when you are marred in it for so long. Just my 2 cents guys I'll be posting more in the coming months. Really exited about the draft for the first times in years! 1st rd is loaded with talent we should do well. Cheers

 

[Do you want ants]

It's the same people who thought this team would be a contender this season. They love those free agents. They love the big names. New toy syndrome.

The Rangers need to break it down some more this June. Continue adding younger pieces because that is the only way to build a team. The Rangers aren't even in the first year of their rebuild and some people already want them to add a big ticket free agent. What is that player going to do for the Rangers? The Islanders suck with Tavares. He has been very quiet for them down the stretch. When they needed him the most. He has disappeared. One player doesn't make much of a difference.

The contender portion is disingenuous. A lot of these contender comments were about being playoff contenders and with a better defensive system or new coach.

I understand not wanting to go after UFAs that are boarderline 1st/2nd line or pair players, but they’re talking about elite franchise players. Those are players you at least kick the tires on. How many of them go from being top 5 at their position to worse than a 1st line or pair player even when they decline?

Either way. I’d like to see a new coach and system in place with our current group before we tear it down further. Unless we get offers that better the team.

 

[DutchShamrock]

The contender portion is disingenuous. A lot of these contender comments were about being playoff contenders and with a better defensive system or new coach.

I understand not wanting to go after UFAs that are boarderline 1st/2nd line or pair players, but they’re talking about elite franchise players. Those are players you at least kick the tires on. How many of them go from being top 5 at their position to worse than a 1st line or pair player even when they decline?

Either way. I’d like to see a new coach and system in place with our current group before we tear it down further. Unless we get offers that better the team.

I think anyone being honest wouldn't say that free agents are poison or worthless. I think right now the issue is timing.

We have a few more trades to make and then a big draft. Our next wave of defenders are at least 2 to 3 years away. We need to draft those cheap, impact wings. Lundqvist probably isn't here for the next run. So 2 years until Igor arrives, let alone taking the lead.

In 2 years, Kovalchuk would be declining fast. JVR would be on the downswing. JT would be skating in slush. Doughty would be in Keith/Weber territory.

It's a matter of timing. We need to plug the holes this year with free agency, not build a core. Be smart and patient. Plan for cap space and roster spots to give the next wave of rangers the right support for their runs.

 

[Ola]

Regarding Brooks' column today regarding Buffalo and the fact that they are still treading water even after many years of drafting in the top 8 and twice having the #2 pick:

This is where I like JG's strategy: it is not just about having a few top prospects like Eichel: it is about acquiring as many prospects with NHL potential as possible, knowing that some will not pan out but by having many, a goodly number will likely be productive.

A hockey team is made up of 20+ players: unless you have more than one generational talent on a team (see the Penguins) you need a wide pool of players to choose from and build with.

2 first round picks last year, 3 on the table for this year (plus 2nd rounders), college free agents like Pionk, acquiring other teams 1st and 2nd round picks (Howden, Hajek, Lindgren), trades for younger players (Zbad, ADA), etc., is the way to go.

You can't put all your proverbial hopes on one or two players. You must have a full basket full of eggs. This is what JG appears to be doing. I think it's a great plan.

I think the big problem simply is that you must have a good environment to develop kids in.

It’s as simple as this, you need to practice to become good at something. So it’s kind of a catch 22, you need to put a kid in an environment that enables him to play good hockey in order for him to become good at hockey. And we are of course talking about becoming good at playing hockey in the NHL.

It might sound very theoretical — but it has a huge impact. The NHL game is so tremendously fast. When you come up — you have absolutely no time. It takes a long time and is tremendously difficult to build up that confidence and understanding of the game were you can play a game where you can read the situations and give yourself time and makes good play when you can and just acts on reflexes when you have to. Like you put a young rookie PPQB on the worst PP in the league on a horrible team and another kid just as good on the best PP on the best team — after 2 years the kid on the best PP will most likely just have left the kid on the worst PP in the dust in terms of PP ability. The former will have made plays with he puck in good situations X hundreds of times over those years and the later like a third of that, and the other two thirds he will instead have played it in impossible situations. It’s like no coincidence that for a while the top two PPQBs were two guys that exceeded expectations a lot, one like a kid 1st and the other a 2nd rounder, and it was the two guys who played on a PP with AO and Bäckström or on a PP with Sid and Malkin. I dont for a second believe that either Green or Letang would have become as good as they were had they like instead played for a worthless team form year 1.

On top of that you have that worthless aspect of having a bad team where a season often is over before it started. The marginals are not big and it takes a helluva lot to become a good team. A team that thrive for excellence and accomplish that month after month year in and year out will just achieve a lot when it comes to getting rid of bad habits. A team who basically are out of the POs 20 games into the season just won’t pressure its players even remotely to the same extent and you risk ending up with players that just are marinated in bad habits.

And in this perspective the advantage a worthless team have with high picks just haven’t been able to make up for the disadvantage the worthless team have when it comes to developing players.

Preferably you can gather a team with tremendous depth that just fairly soon can hit the ice and blow everyone off their socks from day 1.

 

[Savant]

Regarding Brooks' column today regarding Buffalo and the fact that they are still treading water even after many years of drafting in the top 8 and twice having the #2 pick:

This is where I like JG's strategy: it is not just about having a few top prospects like Eichel: it is about acquiring as many prospects with NHL potential as possible, knowing that some will not pan out but by having many, a goodly number will likely be productive.

A hockey team is made up of 20+ players: unless you have more than one generational talent on a team (see the Penguins) you need a wide pool of players to choose from and build with.

2 first round picks last year, 3 on the table for this year (plus 2nd rounders), college free agents like Pionk, acquiring other teams 1st and 2nd round picks (Howden, Hajek, Lindgren), trades for younger players (Zbad, ADA), etc., is the way to go.

You can't put all your proverbial hopes on one or two players. You must have a full basket full of eggs. This is what JG appears to be doing. I think it's a great plan.

Buffalo, and many of those other teams are still in their rebuild cycles because they never fixed their goalie. If Buffalo would have traded their first for Talbot, instead of Lehrer because the Murrays were sounding with each other, they may be in much better shape. Carolina bet the house on a Scott Darling and a declining Ward, even though Khudobin showed well for them. The Flames have been searching for a goalie since Kipper. The Islanders may have been searching longer. The Canucks had no plan after moving Luongo and Schneider. That is the clear common denominator between all of those teams.

Henrik has played at a very good level this season. Georgiev has shown a lot, and Shestyorkin may be the best Goalie prospect outside of the NHL. Not to mention they have that Allaire guy. With the farm system getting restocked this is not a team that has anything to fear except fear itself when rebuilding. And they still have a geographic advantage to help them get free agents when the time is right. The defense is going to take time to fix, but their last line of defense is planned out.