Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part V: Strangers in New York

[Fugazy]

Henrik Sedin at the deadline

Certainly a possibility, having to consider where both teams are positioned at the deadline.

 

[FJB]

If the Rangers win the Cup, I won't care if they were the youngest team in the league or the oldest.

If they win the Cup, I won't care if they tank for 5 years. Actually if they win the Cup, I would only want them to make the playoffs the year after, and after that they can tank for a few years and I won't care.

 

[silverfish]

I really thought you were serious.

Well. I was annoyed originally. But, I guess I've made my own bed here recently, so, time to lie in it.

 

[Gospel of Prospal]

If Gorton can turn Holden AND Staal into a top-6 C, I'm erecting a statue of him


Keep that in mind, Jeff. If you want a statue (more like a paper mache), turn Holden and Staal into a top-6 C.

 

[eco's bones]

This Rangers forward group reminds me of the groups we used to put together in the 80's. A lot of them were good players--Pavelich, Rogers, Kisio, Ogrodnick, Sandstrom, Podubny, Ridley, Larouche, (a bit past his prime), Maloney, Mullen etc. etc. etc. but nobody really elite for any real length of time.

 

[smoneil]

I don't get all the nervousness about this team. I find the idea of seeing if players like Zibanejad, Kreider, Buch, Miller, Hayes and Vesey can take another step in their respective developments to be very exciting. Adding players like Andersson (who has grown on me dramatically since hus selection), Chytil, DeAngelo, Pionk and Bereglazov thrills me to no end. I like what Gorton is doing. The Rangers are turning over the roster while remaining competitive. Draft well and the process becomes a lot smoother. People think rosters are static. This player needs to have his numbers replaced. I loved Stepan and hated seeing him go, but, everyone is guaranteeing his numbers will be the same in 2017-8. What if they aren't? Now you're a year down the road and Stepan doesn't get you a top 10 pick and a quality young prospect while not taking back any salary. This isn't just plug and place and the numbers will be there. Every year is it's own entity.

To me, it comes down to HOW we are going to see if Zib/Kreider/Miller/Hayes/etc can take another step. The "safer" way to develop youth is to have them push their way up the lineup. That's how Dubinsky supplanted Gomez. It's how Stepan supplanted Dubinsky. It's how McD supplanted Rozsival. It's how Lundqvist supplanted Weekes.

That's not what Gorton did with these moves. He made a trade that created a gaping hole in the lineup, at one of the three toughest positions to find a guy (1C/1D/1G). Now he's effectively saying to the guys who are here: "Let's see who can be that guy." The problem is it's about more than just WANTING to be that guy. We threw money at Holik thinking he could be a 1C. We threw money at Matt Cullen thinking he could be more than he had been. They ended up just looking out of their depth.

I like Hayes, Zib and Miller, but if any of them were going to be a 1C, they would have made more of a case to push Stepan down the lineup by now. They might rise to the occasion, but at this point, that would surprise me.

I don't hate the moves. I do think these are moves made with a mind towards making the Rangers a better team in a year or three. Depending on how some guys react and potential injuries, I could see this team missing the playoffs.

They got rid of a lot of the leadership group. Only Nash and Staal are left, and they are dead men walking. It will be interesting to see who fills THAT void, and who this team chooses to follow (Shatt? Zucc?).

 

[Riche16]

Pavelec was probably who Benny wanted.

I'm surprised that people wish Gorton could've done more.

Maybe Benny thinks he can fix him? Wouldn't shock me at all.

 

[kovazub94]

To me, it comes down to HOW we are going to see if Zib/Kreider/Miller/Hayes/etc can take another step. The "safer" way to develop youth is to have them push their way up the lineup. That's how Dubinsky supplanted Gomez. It's how Stepan supplanted Dubinsky. It's how McD supplanted Rozsival. It's how Lundqvist supplanted Weekes.

That's not what Gorton did with these moves. He made a trade that created a gaping hole in the lineup, at one of the three toughest positions to find a guy (1C/1D/1G). Now he's effectively saying to the guys who are here: "Let's see who can be that guy." The problem is it's about more than just WANTING to be that guy. We threw money at Holik thinking he could be a 1C. We threw money at Matt Cullen thinking he could be more than he had been. They ended up just looking out of their depth.

I like Hayes, Zib and Miller, but if any of them were going to be a 1C, they would have made more of a case to push Stepan down the lineup by now. They might rise to the occasion, but at this point, that would surprise me.

I don't hate the moves. I do think these are moves made with a mind towards making the Rangers a better team in a year or three. Depending on how some guys react and potential injuries, I could see this team missing the playoffs.

They got rid of a lot of the leadership group. Only Nash and Staal are left, and they are dead men walking. It will be interesting to see who fills THAT void, and who this team chooses to follow (Shatt? Zucc?).

I think Zibanejad did, bar the injury he suffered in the middle of the season and AV's tendency to use Stepan, G and Staal regardless of better options. NYR hole is at 2C and depth in case of an injury.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Pavelec was probably who Benny wanted.

I'm surprised that people wish Gorton could've done more.

Maybe Benny thinks he can fix him? Wouldn't shock me at all.

There was a time where Ondrej wasn't an awful goalie. He has also played on some pretty bad teams. Since his career year in 14-15, he has gone down hill.

At 29, I have full faith in Allaire. Truth be told, I like the signing. If it turns out bad, I'll eat plenty of crow.

 

[Ghost of jas]

To me, it comes down to HOW we are going to see if Zib/Kreider/Miller/Hayes/etc can take another step. The "safer" way to develop youth is to have them push their way up the lineup. That's how Dubinsky supplanted Gomez. It's how Stepan supplanted Dubinsky. It's how McD supplanted Rozsival. It's how Lundqvist supplanted Weekes.

That's not what Gorton did with these moves. He made a trade that created a gaping hole in the lineup, at one of the three toughest positions to find a guy (1C/1D/1G). Now he's effectively saying to the guys who are here: "Let's see who can be that guy." The problem is it's about more than just WANTING to be that guy. We threw money at Holik thinking he could be a 1C. We threw money at Matt Cullen thinking he could be more than he had been. They ended up just looking out of their depth.

I like Hayes, Zib and Miller, but if any of them were going to be a 1C, they would have made more of a case to push Stepan down the lineup by now. They might rise to the occasion, but at this point, that would surprise me.

I don't hate the moves. I do think these are moves made with a mind towards making the Rangers a better team in a year or three. Depending on how some guys react and potential injuries, I could see this team missing the playoffs.

They got rid of a lot of the leadership group. Only Nash and Staal are left, and they are dead men walking. It will be interesting to see who fills THAT void, and who this team chooses to follow (Shatt? Zucc?).

By the end of the year, you could make the argument Zibanejad had already replaced Stepan as the #1 center in the minds of both the coaching staff and management. He played with the best two forwards on the team, and he was the team's leading scorer. I have full confidence in him taking the step forward.

As for Dubinsky pushing out Gomez, revisionist history on your part. Dubinsky centered Jagr because that's what Jagr wanted. And Dubinsky wasn't pushed out by Stepan, he was moved to LW because Tortorella thought he would be more effective there. If anything, Dubinsky was pushed out by the arrival of Kreider.

Both Miller and Hayes were basically 50 point players last year. Get that type of production from either one of them and you're good at the #2 center position. Get it from both of them and center is a non-issue.

 

[smoneil]

I think Zibanejad did, bar the injury he suffered in the middle of the season and AV's tendency to use Stepan, G and Staal regardless of better options. NYR hole is at 2C and depth in case of an injury.

Of the three, I think he has the best chance (followed by Miller and then Hayes). The issue with Zib isn't skill, but rather consistency. That was the book on him when we traded for him. He could look like a 1C one night and a 3C the next three. Stepan, although he struggled with the offense a bit this year, was far more consistent.

I'm interested to see how it all shakes out.

 

[smoneil]

By the end of the year, you could make the argument Zibanejad had already replaced Stepan as the #1 center in the minds of both the coaching staff and management. He played with the best two forwards on the team, and he was the team's leading scorer. I have full confidence in him taking the step forward.

Leading scorer? He had 37 points. I hope he takes a step forward. I like him as a player. But the cold truth is that he's 24 and has only had one season where he scored 50+ points. Stepan is only 3 years older, and has FIVE seasons of 50+ point production (six if you count the lockout year). All while drawing the toughest minutes. People on these boards decided to turn Step into the board scapegoat last year, but he was a damn good player for this team, and any of Zib/Hayes/Miller have to take a FEW steps forward to fill that gap.

As for Dubinsky pushing out Gomez, revisionist history on your part. Dubinsky centered Jagr because that's what Jagr wanted. And Dubinsky wasn't pushed out by Stepan, he was moved to LW because Tortorella thought he would be more effective there. If anything, Dubinsky was pushed out by the arrival of Kreider.

Not revisionist at all. Jagr and Gomez had no chemistry. Several options were tried before Dubinsky and Jagr meshed. He wasn't gifted the top line. An opportunity opened and he grabbed it when several others couldn't.

And Dubi's shift to LW happened right at the moment when...Stepan arrived on the team. "Pushed him out" doesn't mean off of the team. It means out of that spot.

Both Miller and Hayes were basically 50 point players last year. Get that type of production from either one of them and you're good at the #2 center position. Get it from both of them and center is a non-issue.

"Basically" is a fun word. In Hayes' case, it means "didn't" and "never has." Hayes scored 49 last year, true. But he did this playing sheltered minutes. Will he even put up THAT many points against the kind of players Step and Zib had to deal with? And don't forget, this is the same guy who showed up two seasons ago overweight and scored only 36 points in a full season. As for Miller, he's been a winger pretty much since he got here. Can he handle the defensive side of the game that a center has to play AND put up his production? A decent chunk of his production the last two years has been based on getting into good positions and scoring with his absurdly high shooting percentage.


Also, both players pretty much no-showed the playoffs. Stepan got lambasted on here for only scoring six points in 12 playoff games. Hayes/Miller? They had six points COMBINED.


I'm not trying to crap on the players we still have on the team. I'm just making the point that the moves Gorton made don't seem (by any objective measure) to have been made because there were players pushing Stepan out of that spot. Gorton's moves were made with an eye on two or three seasons from now. It puts the team THIS season in a bit of a tough spot, and it's no guarantee that this year's team is going to even do AS well as last year's. As I said, it will be interesting to see what happens/who responds, and I think a big part of that will be who steps up into that leadership void created by all the moves.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Leading scorer in the playoffs.

 

[SA16]

I'm trying to figure out how Gorton sabotaged the Rangers but it's pretty hard to do so inside a giant block of text full of one word "sentences." If anyone can translate that into English please let me know.

Also playoff stats don't predict anything. Don't make decisions based off of playoff stats.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Gorton sabotaged the Rangers is full blown tin foil hat.

At worst the Rangers are mediocre next year. They aren't getting a top pick.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Gorton sabotaged the Rangers is full blown tin foil hat.

At worst the Rangers are mediocre next year. They aren't getting a top pick.

It's not impossible for them to miss the playoffs and win one of the lottery spots but I agree, to say that Gorton sabotaged the Rangers is silly. If he really wanted to do that, he wouldn't have bought out Girardi.

 

[TheTakedown]

I think Gorton is doing exactly what he said he would do. Following RB's notes would be a VERY nice step forward for this organization. They had (2) 1st's in 2017. They could conceivably have (3) if they trade Nash and Zuccarello.

Signing Smith and Shattenkirk is about signing assets who fit this system and this team. Gorton isn't blowing the entire thing up. He said they are re-tooling on the fly. If that's the plan and you see some guys who fit your goal for the next couple of years you go get them. Smith and Shattenkirk obviously fit what he was looking for.

Zuccarello is the harder player to move obviously. If he is willing to sign a similar contract to what he has, say 4 years @ $5m, I'd hold on to him. That conversation needs to be had by management with he and his agent

That's what it's been the entire time. NYR is selling guys that are performing but are nearing the end of their primes, getting picks and prospects out of them. The free agency period that follows they are simply signing replacements. It's not a bad strategy unless you sign a VERY bad contract, which Gorton hasn't done.

 

[Kovalev27]

Stepan played his way off the team. I've said it before but that's what he did. And Zibanejad outplayed him wasn't close.

Stepan was awful last year and writing was on the wall too many miles on a guy that couldn't skate. Rangers sold him while his stock was still high. Was a great move.

I worry about who plays behind Zibanejad and Hayes not for someone to play ahead of them.

 

[Kovalev27]

Again my biggest concern is in goal. Hank can't put roller hockey numbers up again and consistently get beat on shots that doesn't matter who's on D he needs to stop

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yes, RB, Gorton sabotaged the Rangers by signing by far the best UFA defenseman available who addresses the biggest weakness this team has had for the most recent years. Also signing one of the next best UFA defenseman who had chemistry with Skjei and can be a solid second pair guy. Both are 28. True sabotage! He clearly wants to miss the playoffs!

I love how you're just assuming Pavelec is gonna step in and put up 3.55 GAA and .887 SV% or something. Why bother letting him work with Benny and seeing if he is better behind a team that isn't a tire fire like where he spent his whole career. Why bother, we already know he sucks. Raanta had lost his job as a backup before we traded for him, let's not act like he was a guaranteed success before coming here. Gorton wanted Pavelec because he's been known to be a talented goalie skill wise and also he has been a starter so should Hank struggle or get injured, our backup has legitimate NHL proof of being able to start in the league. You can at least see the logic, right?

Oh wait, no, the sky is falling, Gorton is a saboteur and wants to bottom out this year and will be mad if we're a playoff team and we signed a beer league D division goalie!

Gorton. Sabateur. Not good. Injury. Over-punctuation. Lunacy.

LOL Gorton's job depends on how we do as a team. The notion that he is purposefully making moves to secretly sabotage our team is beyond ridiculous. If he did that he would be gone quick. Did he really do it undercover without any of the other hockey professionals noticing but posters on HF do know about it? Wow he is a sly fox. Next on Scooby the case of the secret General Manager Sabotage.

 

[Thirty One]

Saboteur is one of my favorite words to say

 

[NickyFotiu]

Zuccarello will be a career Ranger, Shattenkirk will not be traded the year he signed a bargain deal to come to NYR.

I realize you were wrong about Shattenkirk coming here, now you will be on his case to trade him for his entire tenure here. A shame.

I was surprised they didn't do better than Pavelec, but I will trust management here and be a little rational by assuming that he is not trying to sabotage the team. I've actually always been a fan of Pavelec since his Thrashers days, but I realize he's fell off the wagon a bit here the last couple years. Jets fans like to use him as a scapegoat for their "stacked" teams failing over there. (I've got a bit of an ongoing beef with a group of them)

Shatty has not even played a single preseason game for us yet and we already have this talk of when we can trade him. UGH

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Leading scorer? He had 37 points. I hope he takes a step forward. I like him as a player. But the cold truth is that he's 24 and has only had one season where he scored 50+ points. Stepan is only 3 years older, and has FIVE seasons of 50+ point production (six if you count the lockout year). All while drawing the toughest minutes. People on these boards decided to turn Step into the board scapegoat last year, but he was a damn good player for this team, and any of Zib/Hayes/Miller have to take a FEW steps forward to fill that gap.

I love how dishonestly presented this is.

He had 37 points only because he missed a month and a half due to breaking his leg. Throw in the playoffs and he went 48 in 68. Call me crazy, but if he got another 14 games (to hit 82 total), I think he would have put up more than 2 points.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Stepan played his way off the team = worst shooting% of his career while still driving play more than basically every forward sans Kreider and Zucc. Still had the strongest goal impacts per usual, but ya know, narratives and whatnot.

Trading Stepan to add the 7th pick and ADA isn't sabotage. It's hedging your bets on progression from Mika, Hayes, Vesey, Buch, and Miller. It's a calculated risk that may very well not work out until Lias and Chytil are ready. You don't keep Smith, buyout Girardi, and sign Shattenkirk as sabotage. Revamping the entire defense helps them play a more mobile, north-south game, and it's up to the forwards I mentioned above to help mitigate the loss of Stepan.

 

[Thirty One]

Shatty has not even played a single preseason game for us yet and we already have this talk of when we can trade him. UGH

Agreed. We should wait until the first preseason game.