Rookie Tournament

[Berserker*]

Do any of our players resemble or play like those players you talk about? That's the problem people continue to bring up examples of other players who don't play for Ottawa & are already stars. There not comparable until our small players start to play that way & are as successful. Small players tend to be perimeter players & I don't think Ottawa can afford to have too many of them or they will get pushed around. The first period was a pretty good example of what I've been saying. Ottawa has all the speed but stay to the outside & Toronto has the size & muscle & bide there time & punish Ottawa with every chance they get & so far it's paying off for them.

So essentially your issue is that small players tend to be soft and play on the perimeter, which is detrimental to the success of the organization. On that point, I don't think you will find any competent individual on here that will disagree with you; soft perimeter play doesn't win championships.

But, with that stated, if a small player wasn't soft nor a perimeter play than there wouldn't be any issue with having one or multiple on the roster. All three of Prince, Pageau and Conacher are very competitive, gritty and battle hard for position and loose pucks. None of them could be accurately classified as soft or perimeter players, so even if ll three were on the roster, it wouldn't negatively effect the teams overall toughness and ability to compete.

The only potential issue you could propose with those three is whether they can gain sufficient strength to not get out muscled and actually out muscle bigger players so they can actually win positional or puck battles. But on that point, all three have the potential to be just as strong if not stronger than much bigger players in the league, contingent on them putting in the sufficient time lifting weights.

Here is an example to show you how strong people can become regardless of there size. The following are some power lifting records for two of the smaller weight classes (75, 82,5 and 90 kg) provided from http://wpfpowerlifting.com/records.htm

at 75 kg (165 lbs)

Squat 265 kg (583 lbs)
Bench Press 175 kg (385 lbs)
Deadlift 280 kg (616 lbs)

at 82.5 kg (181.5 lbs)

Squat 315 kg (693 lbs)
Bench Press 207.5 kg (456.2 lbs)
Deadlift 312.5 kg (687.5 lbs)

at 90 kg (198 lbs)

Squat 335.5 kg (738.1 lbs)
Bench Press 282.5 kg (621.5 lbs)
Deadlift 332.5 kg (731.5 lbs)

As you can see from the information above a person doesn't need to be very big to be incredibly strong and strength is more important than size in hockey.

 

[BonkTastic]

Oh... This is not good... Dunn had better not get invited to main camp.

Umm.... why?

 

[arsmaster*]

Just caught Lazar's shootout goal. I'm jealous of you guys, such a great kid.

We have our own similar prospect in Vancouver in Horvat, both of these guys were my favourites all year.

The smile is infectious. Enjoy.

 

[BK201]

Just caught Lazar's shootout goal. I'm jealous of you guys, such a great kid.

We have our own similar prospect in Vancouver in Horvat, both of these guys were my favourites all year.

The smile is infectious. Enjoy.

Thanks, Horvat looks awesome, I did NJD in a mock and took Horvat at 9.

 

[Laoghaire]

Umm.... why?

He's an Olympiques fan...?

 

[Xspyrit]

On the first Sens goal, Petersson is again a big reason why they scored... Jumped on the loose puck, centers it then Lazar makes another great pass and dunn.

Anyone else feels bad for Leafs fans? All that joy and enthusiasm crushed by Sens rookie power all of sudden?

SIZE

I don't care much about this issue usually but oh well... Size isn't the only thing that matters, depends if the guy "plays small" or not... If you have weight and strenght, it helps

Conacher : doesn't matter, he's the honey badger. Plays like he's 6'2, 210 lbs
Condra : doesn't matter, defensive/PK specialist, shouldn't be in Ottawa all his career
Karlsson : doesn't matter, top-3 D-man in the world
Prince : still a prospect but isn't that small (5'11, 185 lbs), not done growing into his body
Petersson : size is a weakness but skill is a plus
Pageau : doesn't seem to matter as he can still be effective tons of different ways

PS : Inferior Leafs team? Only once in 4 the Sens finished higher in the standings IIRC

GL to you guys, I have a feeling you'll take it. Rielly and Finn are both sitting unfortunately, same with Verhaghe.

Really wanted to see that Rielly vs Ceci comparasion

Without sounding too cocky, with the talent level in our prospect pool, I expect nothing less than 3-0 every year now. That's how good I think our drafting is.

Just noticed this about Dunn. He and Mantha played for Val D'or

Anthony Mantha 1994-09-16 R 67 50 39 89

Vincent Dunn 1995-09-14 C 53 25 27 52

Mantha is a year older, went 20th overall to Detroit.

I don't know if Dunn could be another draft steal... At some point how many can a team have? (I'll make a "hopefully" very interesting thread about it soon)

Honestly, every year this tournament is too easy for the Sens rookies. I know it isn't about winning, but when we're going 3-0 every year it's crazy. I wish we were in a more competitive tournament.

Wish we could go against the Oilers and show them that we don't need to draft as high to draft better...

 

[BonkTastic]

He's an Olympiques fan...?

OH YEAH, I forgot Dunn is playing for Gatineau this year...

 

[BK201]

Toughness is not about size it's about being tough we all know aragorn likes the big guys I just ignore it. To each their own.

Thing is you need special one off players that are tough.

You can't just follow a mold, toughness is special and different with each player.

Pageau plays a lot bigger than he is even already in the NHL.

 

[Qward]

Highlights are up on Leafs TV: http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=802&id=443465&cmpid=embed-share-video

Thank you for sharing. Saved me from having to read through a bunch of twitter to piece together what happened.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I don't know if Dunn could be another draft steal... At some point how many can a team have? (I'll make a "hopefully" very interesting thread about it soon)

It's getting to the point where teams that look beyond the stats and focus on character and drive are the ones who will have the best prospect crop. Let's face it, everyone now playing competitive hockey knows all about nutrition, how to get the most out of your body, how to train, has top level coaching in all areas, etc.

The only thing that really separates 99% of the players out there is how bad the want to be a pro, and how much work and determination they're willing to put into it. It all comes down to personality.

Great scouts (like ours) look at guys who want to excel in everything they do, who have a never give up attitude, and have their head on straight.

It's really us, the fans, who are still stuck on the youtube flashy videos and highlight reels. The sexy picks. Those sexy picks (cough, Filatov, cough) rarely work out; it's the good all-around heart and soul guys like the Horvats and Lazars that are the ones who end up the gems.

We should be really proud of our scouting staff. They're doing one hell of a job.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Pageau was just on another level than everyone else, he was dominant and it was amazing to see.

Prince, Lazar, Stone, Grant, Wideman all had very very impressive showings as well.

Everyone else played good enough but I was left a little disappointed with my man Puempel but my expectations were really high on him anyway and I could understand kind of why due to rust and hasn't played as much last year as the others.

Best surprises:

Has to be the work of Petersson and Dunn. Petersson was a forgotten prospect by many on this board cause of a weak start last year in the A before season ending injury but in this tourney he showed why his skill set is NHL-quality, he just needs to work on drive and consistency.

Also Vincent Dunn, great overall showing by the kid, was everywhere and got rewarded lat game with 2 goals and an assist as long as being a huge super-pest while maintaining his composure and game.

I liked Ceci and Harpur too, Claesson was consistent as he always is but Ceci left me wanting more as did Buddy Robinson who showed some flash. I think both guys would work wonders at bingo with Luke for another year.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

You certainly see where the comparison of Dunn to Marchand comes in. Agitator with hands and goes hard to the net. He got tossed at the end of the game too for what I'm assuming was some sort of chirping from the bench.

I've certainly see much better from Sdao before. He looked a step behind all night.

I could watch that 6-2 goal all day. They were just toying with them at that point.

 

[BonkTastic]

I haven't really been able to watch any of the rookie tourney games (for some reason, none of the major Asian networks picked up NHL pre-season games! Shocking!), but was curious to hear what people thought of the 3 older defencemen in the tournament: Blood, Wideman and Sdao.

Honestly, I don't have much hope for any of them ever having more than a handful of games in the NHL, at most (and even then, that's a stretch: Blood & Sdao are overage prospects without any real upper ceiling to their games at this point, and Wideman is pretty "meh"), but if any of them have surpassed expectations, it'd be nice to hear about.

 

[BondraTime]

Dang, forgot to include this part:

Mantha vs Dunn (comaprison based on age)
Mantha 2011-12 63 22 29 51
Dunn 2012-13 53 25 27 52

Dunn outscores him in PPG by a significant margin.

Dunn is 5-11, 170

Mantha is 6-4, 190

Mantha was the best player in Val' Dor in the second half of his 17 year old season, in which he scored 45 points in his last 30 games.

He also scored 50 goals in his draft year, and his skating is top notch.

No comparison to be made really, aside from they play on the same team.

Dunn was a great pick, and I love the type of game he plays. A type of prospect the Sens haven't really had. I just don't think it is fair to compare him to a guy like Mantha. They went 100+ picks apart for a reason.

 

[c_mak]

I haven't really been able to watch any of the rookie tourney games (for some reason, none of the major Asian networks picked up NHL pre-season games! Shocking!), but was curious to hear what people thought of the 3 older defencemen in the tournament: Blood, Wideman and Sdao.

Honestly, I don't have much hope for any of them ever having more than a handful of games in the NHL, at most (and even then, that's a stretch: Blood & Sdao are overage prospects without any real upper ceiling to their games at this point, and Wideman is pretty "meh"), but if any of them have surpassed expectations, it'd be nice to hear about.

IMO Sdao and Blood didn't really stand out. Blood relied on his partner Classeon more than Sdaorelied on his partner . Blood fought and got knocked out and was otherwise not very noticeable. Sdao had some good hits and moved the puck a bit better. Neither are great skaters but Sdao's size and fighting ability may keep him around longer.
Wideman was more noticeable. He is a good skater and he was up in the play or starting the play with a good breakout pass. Some good pinches and has a better head for the game. Not sure if he has what it takes to play in NHL.
For all the people going on with the Pageau debate, he was the best player on the ice period. While he does not possess blazing speed he is a good skater, with great hockey sense and good hands.
A close second to him where Peterson and Prince. Both have great hands skate well, but the thing that impressed me most was they went into high traffic areas - Prince more than Petereson but they both went to the corners and the front of the net hard. I like Peterson but I like Prince's overall game better.
Still the guy that seems to be more NHL ready than all is Stone. He had two or three good hits. Stole the puck scored a shorty and was all over the ice, which is impressive for a guy who apparently can't skate People who have not watched him need to pay more attention, while he is not going to set any speed records he gets around the ice well and his passing is really underrated, as too is his puck handling ability. Stone is a good hockey player Ottawa drafted a gem he is my pick to make the team out of camp and really do well with on either of the top two lines
Also it was awesome to be in London with Leaf fans watching the game have the Sens go down by two and then score six unanswered BOO-YA!

 

[Benttheknee]

Dunn is 5-11, 170

Mantha is 6-4, 190

Mantha was the best player in Val' Dor in the second half of his 17 year old season, in which he scored 45 points in his last 30 games.

He also scored 50 goals in his draft year, and his skating is top notch.

No comparison to be made really, aside from they play on the same team.

Dunn was a great pick, and I love the type of game he plays. A type of prospect the Sens haven't really had. I just don't think it is fair to compare him to a guy like Mantha. They went 100+ picks apart for a reason.

I know the draft positions, but I wonder how much age is taken into account. These two are a full year different. I wonder if Dunn was simply taken too late and the Sens got a steal. Who can really say without having the time to research the draft position and birth date.

 

[BondraTime]

I know the draft positions, but I wonder how much age is taken into account. These two are a full year different. I wonder if Dunn was simply taken too late and the Sens got a steal. Who can really say without having the time to research the draft position and birth date.

Age is certainly a factor. Dunn being one of the youngest and Mantha being one of the oldest certainly played a role.

Mantha has physical gifts and skill that Dunn does not, and age is almost certainly not going to change that.

Was Dunn a steal where we took him? It may be so, but I don't think they are comparable, and the sens thought more highly of Harpur, Lind, and Hogberg than Dunn.

I like the Dunn pick more than all three of those guys though, but may be biased as I watched a few games of Dunn's live, and love his playing style.

 

[NyQuil]

Dunn had the luxury of playing with Stone and Pageau - not to say that he didn't make the most of the opportunity, but it was also prime real estate.

The Senators in this tournament were lethal in that they had a quick strike offence that could score at any time despite the current run of play. It made for some entertaining hockey.

I stand by my earlier position that Prince is a gamer - and motivated too. Pageau clearly didn't belong with these boys, and I saw what others had said about Stone being capable of playing that north-south game with big hits on the end boards and soft hands around the net. He has to shoot the puck a little bit more, but aside from that, pretty solid in this game. He doesn't have the acceleration of Pageau, but he's certainly not ponderous either.

Robinson really does look like a project. He's a bit awkward and doesn't always use his size well, and his stick handling needs a lot of work. He does move relatively quick for a big guy which is nice to see.

I think Ceci had a pretty solid game. He's very mobile which means he's usually involved in the play - either offensively or defensively. Wideman was the other guy that impressed me on D.

Driedger allowed a weak one on that 2nd Leafs goal but aside from that, not too bad. Hammond was solid.

The fighting was interesting because there usually are a lot of fights in these kinds of tournaments because the youngsters want to get noticed. Obviously we were on the losing end of most of them but that's more of a factor of who the Leafs decided to dress.

Percy was pretty strong for the Leafs, but aside from that, I didn't really notice too much else.

 

[Benttheknee]

I think this series plays well for the skill players more so than the grinders, which is why I Wideman stood out, while Sdao did not.

 

[bert]

Too late.

zeke posted it before the game even started.

Yeah well it was our youngest possible birth year that put the dagger through their collective hearts. Wine and wimper away the sens will continue to draft and DEVELOP better, not our fault that none of their prospects are still in their organization or panned out to the point where they were signed or re signed.

 

[bert]

What I noticed was that Mantha is 363 days older than Dunn, so a comparison of Mantha from a year earlier has some value.

What it shows is that Dunn (drafted 138th in 2013) outscored, by a decent margin Anthony Mantha who was drafted 20th overall in 2013 when compared at the same age, rather than the same year.

52 points in 53 games for Dunn, 51 in 63 for Mantha

That's nice and all but they are nothing alike as prospects and despite the age difference Mantha's upside is extremely elite. He is 6'4 with a rocket shot and a good skater, he just has inconsistency issues. He could be a potential 40 goal scorer in the NHL has all the tools its just whether he can bring it to the show. He is a boom bust prospect. Dunn looks to be a 3rd 4th line grinder/pest with some offensive flair.

Makes me sad that they didn't dress Reilly... Quite odd considering the circumstances, the game would probably have been very different. I am suspicious as to why they wouldn't dress him when it was two undefeated bitter rivals. Rookie tournament or not this was for the win.

 

[Laoghaire]

Yeah well it was our youngest possible birth year that put the dagger through their collective hearts. Wine and wimper away the sens will continue to draft and DEVELOP better, not our fault that none of their prospects are still in their organization or panned out to the point where they were signed or re signed.

Well there is an age difference I think we should also look at the quality of prospects that were sent:

Numbers below out of each teams HFBoards Top 20:

Toronto - 13/20
Pittsburgh 11/20
Ottawa - 8/20
Chicago - 6/20

 

[Hammertyme]

Dear TO Fans,
Why make excuses. The SENS played better than the rest. Why not just admit it? You got your ***** handed to you on a platter(except for the fights). Good luck should any of your players on your BIG team get hurt this year. As far as Reilly they are protecting him..sheltered minutes or should I say sheltered games.

 

[Gutchecktime]

Well there is an age difference I think we should also look at the quality of prospects that were sent:

Numbers below out of each teams HFBoards Top 20:

Toronto - 13/20
Pittsburgh 11/20
Ottawa - 8/20
Chicago - 6/20

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ottawa's rookie team performance but in fairness, those numbers are kind of misleading without context.

The group Ottawa sent definitely had more professional experience and that makes a big difference. Over 800 AHL games to Toronto's 250. Over 30 NHL games to Toronto's 0. And obviously while 13/20 may have been on the roster, fewer actually played in all three games. Pageau and Stone have played more NHL games than Toronto's entire blueline last night have played AHL games. It's pretty significant.

 

[Benjamin]

TSN showed highlights from all the Rookie Tourny games from last night except the Sens vs Leafs game. ahaha