Remembering Burke and the 2012 draft

[Daisy Jane]

No I mean he would have no doubt handled the situation better than Fletcher did. The Sudin matter had already played out before Burke arrived.

Played out to the point where Sundin was still willing to come back and Burke said no, you're not in our plans. So if Burke wanted Sundin to be here - Sundin would have been here.

so. again. it doesn't matter.

Brian Burke was a bad, bad hire, and he put our franchise behind the eight ball due to his archaic philosophies, and horrendous drafting. We have about 5-6 players that are worth being excited about, but out of all of them, the only potential real star is Rielly.

This waxing poetic about how Burke would have made a difference had Fletcher not been involved is silly. Because it's not like he mad a significant impact in the five years he WAS here. We didn't improve at all, we had 4 disastrous years, and the "playoffs" we're holding on to, was based on an unsustainable level of play as we've seen it the past 3 years since. (which - I might add - was done by a man that Burke supported and thought was a good GM too).

honestly.

 

[ACC1224]

Played out to the point where Sundin was still willing to come back and Burke said no, you're not in our plans. So if Burke wanted Sundin to be here - Sundin would have been here.

so. again. it doesn't matter.

Brian Burke was a bad, bad hire, and he put our franchise behind the eight ball due to his archaic philosophies, and horrendous drafting. We have about 5-6 players that are worth being excited about, but out of all of them, the only potential real star is Rielly.

This waxing poetic about how Burke would have made a difference had Fletcher not been involved is silly. Because it's not like he mad a significant impact in the five years he WAS here. We didn't improve at all, we had 4 disastrous years, and the "playoffs" we're holding on to, was based on an unsustainable level of play as we've seen it the past 3 years since. (which - I might add - was done by a man that Burke supported and thought was a good GM too).

honestly.

Played out as in there were no riches brought in for the departing player. Do you not recall Fletcher trying to trade him?

 

[jjjshab]

you can continue if you like but you're just making yourself look foolish

So roster players leave for nothing or negative in return, and the goaltender(s) that got you there end up on the backburner. Yet you still think a core was intact?

The main problem with the team over the past 3 years hasn't been with primary scoring. It was a lacklustre defensive effort that would leave goaltenders out to dry, and if they were anything less than spectacular, they were exposed. And if the top line couldn't outscore our defensive deficiencies, it was a clear loss.

It's obvious that you're not a fan of Burke, so there's really no need in beating a dead horse here

 

[tooncesmeow]

So roster players leave for nothing or negative in return, and the goaltender(s) that got you there end up on the backburner. Yet you still think a core was intact?

The main problem with the team over the past 3 years hasn't been with primary scoring. It was a lacklustre defensive effort that would leave goaltenders out to dry, and if they were anything less than spectacular, they were exposed. And if the top line couldn't outscore our defensive deficiencies, it was a clear loss.

It's obvious that you're not a fan of Burke, so there's really no need in beating a dead horse here

I'd also say that keeping Bozak on teh Leafs did a lot of damage. Kadri had better production with Kessel, especially if you extrapolated that to a full season and yet they kept him off the team and Bozak on. The big issue was consistency, too many times one line would be scoring and the other dead silent. A full year of Lupul - Kadri - Kessel / K-G-M would probably have instilled a lot of confidence in the team. But picking up a coach like Laviolette, Babcock, Trotz, or a guy like Hitchcock also would ahve done a lot imo.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Played out as in there were no riches brought in for the departing player. Do you not recall Fletcher trying to trade him?

And as Mats didn't want to be traded, I don't know how Burke could have handled it better. He didn't want to be rented out. Then he was a UFA. wanted to come back and Burke said no, he doesnt' fit in our plans.

So I am sorry, unless you're saying Burke would have been able to talk Sundin into being traded (which - I don't know if that would have been possible, because - again - Sundin didn't want to leave). then I don't know how Burke would have been able to play it out better. Ultimately - Fletcher "bungled" it up, Mats in his own right - did not waive his UFA. Burke had a chance to have Mats here from December on - and he chose not to). so. it doesn't really matter what Fletcher did - Burke chose not to have him either.

 

[ACC1224]

And as Mats didn't want to be traded, I don't know how Burke could have handled it better. He didn't want to be rented out. Then he was a UFA. wanted to come back and Burke said no, he doesnt' fit in our plans.

So I am sorry, unless you're saying Burke would have been able to talk Sundin into being traded (which - I don't know if that would have been possible, because - again - Sundin didn't want to leave). then I don't know how Burke would have been able to play it out better. Ultimately - Fletcher "bungled" it up, Mats in his own right - did not waive his UFA. Burke had a chance to have Mats here from December on - and he chose not to). so. it doesn't really matter what Fletcher did - Burke chose not to have him either.

Yes Burke would have handled it better, certainly couldn't have handled it worse nor would he have turned Sundin in a villain in the minds of some "fans".

I don't know why you keep bringing up the bolded, it has nothing to do with this.

 

[hotpaws]

So roster players leave for nothing or negative in return, and the goaltender(s) that got you there end up on the backburner. Yet you still think a core was intact?

The main problem with the team over the past 3 years hasn't been with primary scoring. It was a lacklustre defensive effort that would leave goaltenders out to dry, and if they were anything less than spectacular, they were exposed. And if the top line couldn't outscore our defensive deficiencies, it was a clear loss.

It's obvious that you're not a fan of Burke, so there's really no need in beating a dead horse here

stop shifting the goal posts , you try to make a point get shot down then switch to something else

the core isn't depth players that were easily replaced - winnick/santo played as well last year if not better than the vaunted Grabo line did during our strike shortened playoff year

our top line couldn't out score there own defensive deficiencies and that's why they led this team no where

Burke did very little but reap the benefits (when he didn't trade the high picks ) that were the reward for failing .

I know half the people defending him are just doing it for ***** and giggles or to drive traffic on this forum but for those that actually think he did a good job i'm amazed at how low they set the bar for being a successful GM . It's like praising Tambo in Edm for drafting Hall and co because he was so inept he kept getting high picks .

 

[Daisy Jane]

Yes Burke would have handled it better, certainly couldn't have handled it worse nor would he have turned Sundin in a villain in the minds of some "fans".

I don't know why you keep bringing up the bolded, it has nothing to do with this.

I would think so.
Fletcher didn't want Mats here. and ultimately Burke didn't either. So if you are talking about things being better, and we could have gotten an asset - Burke easily could have signed Sundin to a one year deal, then whatever you think could have been handled better could have been spun around deadline, and then assets could have been received for Mats - make the best of the situation for a player who wanted to come back. Burke didn't.

Mats being a "villain" is because Mats didn't waive according to people. So I don't know how that is all on Fletcher - because that information would have been out regardless had it been Burke or Fletcher. You are assuming Burke would have made it better. I don't see how

 

[ACC1224]

I would think so.
Fletcher didn't want Mats here. and ultimately Burke didn't either. So if you are talking about things being better, and we could have gotten an asset - Burke easily could have signed Sundin to a one year deal, then whatever you think could have been handled better could have been spun around deadline, and then assets could have been received for Mats - make the best of the situation for a player who wanted to come back. Burke didn't.

Mats being a "villain" is because Mats didn't waive according to people. So I don't know how that is all on Fletcher - because that information would have been out regardless had it been Burke or Fletcher. You are assuming Burke would have made it better. I don't see how

It's on Fletcher because he made it all public, hoping Mats would waive because of public pressure. Burke would never have done that, he would have kept everything behind the scenes.

 

[dirk41]

The 2012 draft is terrible. Yakupov is the worst first-overall forward picked since the 90s.

Wow, some Leaf fans still defend Burke? What do you have to show for Burke's moves? One playoff appearance in a lockout shortened season (with the worst advanced stats in the league). The Leafs wouldn't have made it, most likely, if the season was 82 games long.

Considering all of the bottom ten finishes, the Leafs should have drafted more prospects than Kadri (decent 2c) and Morgan. By picking low ceiling North Americans, they got nothing out of the later rounds, really.

Do we even want to talk about Burke free agent signings? They were all terrible; the only positive thing about the signings is the term.

 

[jjjshab]

stop shifting the goal posts , you try to make a point get shot down then switch to something else

the core isn't depth players that were easily replaced - winnick/santo played as well last year if not better than the vaunted Grabo line did during our strike shortened playoff year

our top line couldn't out score there own defensive deficiencies and that's why they led this team no where

You asked why the team took a cliff dive the following years after their playoff run, and I'm giving you reasons.

Leafs ES defensive stats w/ the top line (JVR - B - K) for 2013-14:

Leafs ES defensive stats w/o the top line for 2013-14:

In the lockout year, Kuli played with a breakout Kadri and Lupul. Grabo and Mac were used as a checking line - and yes - for secondary scoring. So the next year when the Leafs lacked both defense and secondary scoring and through stretches had porous goaltending (see: james reimer thread), and were at a palpable discord with their head coach, it was only a matter of time before they imploded.

 

[hotpaws]

You asked why the team took a cliff dive the following years after their playoff run, and I'm giving you reasons.

Leafs ES defensive stats w/ the top line (JVR - B - K) for 2013-14:

Leafs ES defensive stats w/o the top line for 2013-14:

In the lockout year, Kuli played with a breakout Kadri and Lupul. Grabo and Mac were used as a checking line - and yes - for secondary scoring. So the next year when the Leafs lacked both defense and secondary scoring and through stretches had porous goaltending (see: james reimer thread), and were at a palpable discord with their head coach, it was only a matter of time before they imploded.

I never asked why the team did there cliff diving , i said the team cliff dived with the Grabo line before and after the strike shortened playoff year . Also we were in a playoff spot after 48 games before and after the strike shortened season so who's to say we wouldn't have did a dive if that season wasn't shortened .

You're the one who keeps saying Nonis destroyed the team by moving the Grabo line , i'm just saying blaming that on our poor performances is bs .

 

[Mess]

Burke was laughed off the boards when he said he had Rielly ranked #1. Now, with all of Yak, Murray (can't stay healthy, looks like a #4 D when healthy), Galchenyuk (Still looks like a #3 C), and Reinhart (in bust territory) failing, Rielly may actually be that player.

The counter arguments so far have been forsberg and Trouba. Forssy had a strong first half of the season last year, but has come back to earth this year with 2 goals in 19 games. He looks like he will be a great piece in any teams top 6, but not a star.

Trouba has also fallen since his rookie year. Go to the jets board, and see how bad he's been. A lot of them are at their ends with him, as he looks like a #4 more than an elite #1.

Now we come to Rielly, who IMO is the best player at this moment with the most potential still from that draft. I say, Thank you Burke!

I'm going to go with Colton Parayko as the best player taken in the 2012 draft.

He will be a rookie of the year candidate this year.

 

[jjjshab]

I never asked why the team did there cliff diving , i said the team cliff dived with the Grabo line before and after the strike shortened playoff year . Also we were in a playoff spot after 48 games before and after the strike shortened season so who's to say we wouldn't have did a dive if that season wasn't shortened .

so why did the elite team-core continue to **** the bed the following seasons

You're the one who keeps saying Nonis destroyed the team by moving the Grabo line , i'm just saying blaming that on our poor performances is bs .

My issues with Nonis go far beyond the grabo line. I mention them because they were a significant part of a team that all walked for nothing and which spiraled into more bad moves:Why was Bozak signed for $ and term when you had Grabo locked up and Kadri just finished a breakout year? Why use a compliance buyout on Grabo when you have JM Liles sitting with a 4/4 contract? You force Clarkson onto what was a very successful Lupul/Kadri/Kuli line and all three regress.

Anyways, I've derailed this enough.

 

[hotpaws]

My issues with Nonis go far beyond the grabo line. I mention them because they were a significant part of a team that all walked for nothing and which spiraled into more bad moves:Why was Bozak signed for $ and term when you had Grabo locked up and Kadri just finished a breakout year? Why use a compliance buyout on Grabo when you have JM Liles sitting with a 4/4 contract? You force Clarkson onto what was a very successful Lupul/Kadri/Kuli line and all three regress.

Anyways, I've derailed this enough.

I'm not defending Nonis , i'm just saying blaming him for the cluster**** Burke left behind is bs . Burke assembled a mediocre team and Nonis followed the path he set us on and that's why he was also shown the door .

Noins had his share of bad moves but that's what you get for throwing good money after bad in an effort to build around a core that was never going to lead us anywhere . You can blame him for many things but saying he destroyed the team by shuffling depth players is ridiculous .