Remembering Burke and the 2012 draft

[Jozay]

Burkie and Co. finally did something right!

 

[tooncesmeow]

I doubt this very much.
As well as the fact, I find it very hard to believe that Fletcher would have traded Steen etc with Burke being hired roughly a few days later.

Yes.
Steen & Cola were traded Nov. 24th.
Burke was hired Nov. 29th.

and as I firmly doubt that this happened within that week. I do feel that the theory of, Burke was feeding Cliff some suggestions relatively accurate.

and EVEN if it's not- Brian Burke isn't as amazing as everyone is trying to wax poetic about.



yeup.

We've eliminated almost 2.5 draft classes of Burke's tenure here. we can remember Rielly but hello - look at Edmonton: What do we have AFTER him? (from the Burke era) ............

Wellllllll Burke traded Schenn for JVR, who is one of the most valuable Leafs right now. McKegg was swapped for Hyman, Blacker was traded for Holland. Leivo, Percy, Rupert, Sparks, Brown, Rielly, and Loov are all still in the system.

 

[hotpaws]

They only needed 7 more players to round out the roster, and had most of their top six and top 4 already signed. And they weren't a bottom end team, they were a playoff team that took the scary Boston Bruins to 7 games and you could argue that if Carlyle didn't mismanage the team, they could have beat the Bruins. They had the most cap space out of any team that made the playoffs and there was a decent free agent class to pick from.

no team breaks camp with 20 players unless they are capped out so stop with the bs

the free agent class was crap and that same great core went to **** the bed again

saying we had the most cap space means nothing without context since your not saying how many players the other teams needed to sign

 

[Daisy Jane]

No doubt Burke would have handled the Sundin situation much better, that alone would have changed the course of this team dramatically.

Many things Fletcher did were hard to believe, he shouldn't get a selective pass on that one.

you mean. Burke would have handled the Sundin situation better than telling Sundin he wasn't in the plans of the team and they were heading in a different direction? Sure, I guess.

Fletcher did a lot of weird things
the Finger v. Sauer thing
Trading up for Schenn

but most people are most irrate re: the Steen/Cola trade. which - I feel was influenced by Burke. I don't think that was being selective.

and quite frankly, seeing what Burke did in 5 years here, I have zero idea why people feel it would have been better had to gone straight from JFJ to him, or that we were capable of big, amazing things had we only kept Burke around.

his drafting history is crap. Basically if he's in the top 5 or so, he gets the home-run right (the Sedins, Pronger, potentially Rielly). he got Kessler. But for the most part his drafting record is crap, his trading record is relatively split, and his cup win, was basically built on B. Murary's work, and lucking out on a lot of situations (ie: Mrs. Pronger wanting Pronger to be traded, and R. Neidermayer wanting to play with S. Niedermayer).

So I don't know why people feel Burke would have made a significant difference here.

 

[BayStreetBully]

that's a nice positive spin of looking at things.

if we didn't have Burke, we don't have Nonis
if we don't have Nonis we don't have those last two years
we don't have Rielly, Nylander and Marner.

i can live with that.

It's crazy, but the 2015 draft finally put me at peace with the Burke saga. I was happy to move forward with our core once we drafted Marner to go along with Nylander following the year he had in Sweden/AHL, knowing we only got them both because we still sucked.

And then Boston made things easier once they traded Hamilton (not that I think he's Seguin-level special and not that the Leafs ever would've drafted him, but now we don't have to hear about him).

And then by trading Kessel, we turn over a new leaf. 6 years later, it's almost as if Burke was never here, and THE TRADE never happened. Hallelujah!

 

[jjjshab]

so why did the elite team-core continue to **** the bed the following seasons

What core?

You let your highest scoring line walk for nothing (Grabo - wasted a compliance buyout, MacArthur - left in free agency, Kuli - walks a year later). All of whom expressed great distaste for their coach and usage on the ice.

You trade your best defensive player (Gunnarson) ALONG WITH a draft pick for an older player who even when he got here was playing further down the lineup (on a BAD maple leafs team)

You introduce a goaltending "competition" after the best year of a young Reimer's career. Basically throwing him under the bus because you see some apparent need for a #1 goalie.

You try to preach accountability and say that good play will lead to more ice time. Meanwhile you refuse to bench Clarkson and play him on the PP for godsake.

Shall I continue?

 

[tooncesmeow]

I think you're missing the bigger picture. If you want to say that Burke made some small positive moves, I can agree with that. But there is one move that defined his time here, and that is the one move that set us back. It doesn't matter what he did outside the Kessel trade because all of his other moves combined still had a smaller effect than the Kessel trade.

Yeah, and I understand that. But I think if you took the average GM and gave him Stalberg, Stajan, White, the 7th overall pick in the 2008 draft (Colin Wilson) and said "go build us a winner by 2012" you would have a worse situation. I mean, the Islanders in the same time frame took Josh Bailey, John Tavares, Nino Nieterriter, Ryan Strome, and Griffin Reinhart. Nino was waived, Griffin was traded for the 16th overall pick in 2015, and Bailey turned into a 2nd liner, barely. As much as people laud the Islanders, they pulled 1 all-star and a 1st/2nd line guy in Strome.

 

[ACC1224]

you mean. Burke would have handled the Sundin situation better than telling Sundin he wasn't in the plans of the team and they were heading in a different direction? Sure, I guess.

Fletcher did a lot of weird things
the Finger v. Sauer thing
Trading up for Schenn

but most people are most irrate re: the Steen/Cola trade. which - I feel was influenced by Burke. I don't think that was being selective.

and quite frankly, seeing what Burke did in 5 years here, I have zero idea why people feel it would have been better had to gone straight from JFJ to him, or that we were capable of big, amazing things had we only kept Burke around.

his drafting history is crap. Basically if he's in the top 5 or so, he gets the home-run right (the Sedins, Pronger, potentially Rielly). he got Kessler. But for the most part his drafting record is crap, his trading record is relatively split, and his cup win, was basically built on B. Murary's work, and lucking out on a lot of situations (ie: Mrs. Pronger wanting Pronger to be traded, and R. Neidermayer wanting to play with S. Niedermayer).

So I don't know why people feel Burke would have made a significant difference here.

No I mean he would have no doubt handled the situation better than Fletcher did. The Sudin matter had already played out before Burke arrived.

 

[tooncesmeow]

no team breaks camp with 20 players unless they are capped out so stop with the bs

the free agent class was crap and that same great core went to **** the bed again

saying we had the most cap space means nothing without context since your not saying how many players the other teams needed to sign

The Leafs top 6 was already sorted, the average 3rd liner was getting maybe 3M? and they had their goaltending tandem already. The free agency class had Iginla, Jagr, Clarkson, Clowe, Filppula, Weiss, Horton, Raymond (which panned out) Visnosky, Regehr, Hainsey, and even some decent goaltenders. It was a good market for 2nd line guys that can shore up a team with talent, which was what the Leafs were.

 

[hotpaws]

What core?

You let your highest scoring line walk for nothing (Grabo - wasted a compliance buyout, MacArthur - left in free agency, Kuli - walks a year later). All of whom expressed great distaste for their coach and usage on the ice. they weren't scoring when they made the playoffs , that was the previous season when we did our first cliff dive , in fact that line all had weak offensive years and all have gone on to do very little

You trade your best defensive player (Gunnarson) ALONG WITH a draft pick for an older player who even when he got here was playing further down the lineup (on a BAD maple leafs team) i like Guunner and that was a bad deal from the get go but that was after another cliff dive and not the season following our playoff year

You introduce a goaltending "competition" after the best year of a young Reimer's career. Basically throwing him under the bus because you see some apparent need for a #1 goalie. Bernier had a good year when we acquired him and the team still did a cliff dive so i have no idea what point you're trying to make

You try to preach accountability and say that good play will lead to more ice time. Meanwhile you refuse to bench Clarkson and play him on the PP for godsake. and Burke preached accountability and still played Connoly-Komi among others when they should have been sitting in the press box so again what's your point ?

Shall I continue?

you can continue if you like but you're just making yourself look foolish

 

[Jmo89]

Burke's drafts definitely left more to be desired, but if he managed to find the team their 1D in Rielly (still TBD,) I think most fans will move on with little animosity. If Kadri is retained after this year he's also shaping up to be a solid 2-way 2C IMO and will provide a veteran presence to the 2014/15/16 draftees who make the team.

What was also beneficial is Rielly was drafted in Burke's last year rather than his first, so our potential 1D will be close to the same age as our (hopefully) potential 1C in Nylander or Marner (no, I'm not saying they will be for sure, but am hopeful one will rise to such a role.)

Definitely slim pickings though. Only guys I see on the future Leafs drafted by Burke are Rielly, Kadri, Brown, and Percy.

 

[diceman934]

What did Burke leave us with:

Kadri and Rielly

JVR and no prospects!

Komi, Liles, Grabo, Connolly, Lambo,

Percy, Biggs, Ross, Finn, etc

No Seguin, Hamilton etc

 

[slozo]

you mean. Burke would have handled the Sundin situation better than telling Sundin he wasn't in the plans of the team and they were heading in a different direction? Sure, I guess.

Fletcher did a lot of weird things
the Finger v. Sauer thing
Trading up for Schenn

but most people are most irrate re: the Steen/Cola trade. which - I feel was influenced by Burke. I don't think that was being selective.

and quite frankly, seeing what Burke did in 5 years here, I have zero idea why people feel it would have been better had to gone straight from JFJ to him, or that we were capable of big, amazing things had we only kept Burke around.

his drafting history is crap. Basically if he's in the top 5 or so, he gets the home-run right (the Sedins, Pronger, potentially Rielly). he got Kessler. But for the most part his drafting record is crap, his trading record is relatively split, and his cup win, was basically built on B. Murary's work, and lucking out on a lot of situations (ie: Mrs. Pronger wanting Pronger to be traded, and R. Neidermayer wanting to play with S. Niedermayer).

So I don't know why people feel Burke would have made a significant difference here.

I agree with most of this take on Burke.

I'd actually be prone to giving him more credit for his trades, some of them were absolute steals. But I also dock him more for his Kessel trade, and his obliviousness to how to properly re-build a team, even in a faster way which is what he tried. I'll tell you though, it taught me a lot as a hockey fan . . . I at first supported the Kessel trade and supported Burke for two years, and I can solemnly declare that looking back at my views then, I was a naive and misguided fool to overlook so many things that now seem obvious.

Mortgaging the future right off the hop, and getting a talented soft, no-work-ethic (yet very talented) winger as your primary piece to build around.
Ensuring we drafted for size over all other values.
Always talking big and delivering little when discussing future performance.
Ignoring trends in the league, like going for speed and skill over size, or analytics.
Giving away draft picks instead of getting more.

I'm glad I went through the learning experience of Burke, but will never look back at it fondly. To me, it's kind of an embarrassing moment for me as a fan to think that I ever liked him.

 

[hotpaws]

The Leafs top 6 was already sorted, the average 3rd liner was getting maybe 3M? and they had their goaltending tandem already. The free agency class had Iginla, Jagr, Clarkson, Clowe, Filppula, Weiss, Horton, Raymond (which panned out) Visnosky, Regehr, Hainsey, and even some decent goaltenders. It was a good market for 2nd line guys that can shore up a team with talent, which was what the Leafs were.

and what does this have to do with you continually saying we had more cap than other team's ?

you said we had more cap than other playoffs teams without saying how many and who if any core players the other teams needed to sign

the list you provided was a who's who of aging players , the best of which had no interest in coming to a mediocre team like ours

Burke spent to the cap if not over every year ( we were assessed a penalty for going over one season ) , his ufa signings for the most part were brutal - komi-army-connoly . The man was a cluster**** from the get go and we're lucky Cope saw him for what he was and kicked his butt to the curb .

 

[tooncesmeow]

What did Burke leave us with:

Kadri and Rielly

JVR and no prospects!

Komi, Liles, Grabo, Connolly, Lambo,

Percy, Biggs, Ross, Finn, etc

No Seguin, Hamilton etc

But.... Kadri, Rielly, Percy, Biggs, Ross, and Finn were all.. prospects? I don't understand. Also Lebda got us Lombardi and Franson which got us a 1st, Leipsic, and a 4th. Which.. is pretty spectacular for Brett Lebda.

 

[Purity*]

I was in the Forsberg camp but I definitely didn't complain with Rielly.


Thank **** we didn't take Grig or Galchenyuk. Galchenyuk has one good stretch every once in awhile where Habs fans gloat about how he's going to be the #1C to win them the cup, but LOL this guy ain't no #1C. He's done absolutely nothing to suggest he is, and it's not like he hasn't played with some good linemates. He still can't beat out Deharnais's production.

2012 draft was definitely really weak.

We really missed the bacon when we could have Tyler Seguin in a Leafs uniform if it wasn't for that dumb blowhard Burke.

 

[BlueBaron]

No I mean he would have no doubt handled the situation better than Fletcher did. The Sudin matter had already played out before Burke arrived.

False.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2008/11/29/burke_says_sundin_unlikely_to_join_leafs.html

It should also be pointed out the Phaneuf trade was pretty amazing and he is probably still our best player. I know it is more fashionable to hate Dion but he is a very good player

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Th sooner we can move on from Burke's tenure the better. Yeah Rielly is fantastic but if Burke were actually competent at his job the Leafs shouldn't have been in a position to draft him had things gone Burke's way. The same can be said for Nonis and Nylander.

Honestly I can't even believe this is really an argument. Sure Burke got the upper hand on a few trades during his time here but where did it ultimately lead us? One first round exit in embarrassing, historical fashion. Hell if that season was 82 games it's more likely that the Leafs would've collapsed out of a playoff spot, like this core has done every single time since 2012 in every 82 game season since.

Yeah Nonis was garbage too, but to place all our woes on him is disingenuous. The Leafs are in the position they are now because of a decade of truly terrible management. JFJ, Fletcher, Burke, and Nonis all share blame for the position the Leafs are in.

 

[Eb]

Burke did leave the team with a significant amount of capspace - Nobis managed to destroy that fairly quickly, as well as trading multiple picks.

Nonis is every bit as complicit for the team's current state as anyone else. We were just lucky they found a taker for Clarkson.

You are comparing cap spaces between a rebuilding team and team trying to contend. Let alone, besides the Clarkson signing that was rectified, Nonis 'destroyed' the cap space on Burke's flawed core that needed to be resigned. Or of course, let's blame Nonis for not dealing off Burke's core after they made the playoffs for the first time in close to a decade.

Good riddens Burke. Thanks for destroying our team and future.

 

[ACC1224]

False.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2008/11/29/burke_says_sundin_unlikely_to_join_leafs.html

It should also be pointed out the Phaneuf trade was pretty amazing and he is probably still our best player. I know it is more fashionable to hate Dion but he is a very good player

How is it false? Sundin was already UFA by the time Burke arrived.

 

[ACC1224]

The Leafs are in the position they are now because of a decade of truly terrible management. JFJ, Fletcher, Burke, and Nonis all share blame for the position the Leafs are in.

I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

 

[diceman934]

But.... Kadri, Rielly, Percy, Biggs, Ross, and Finn were all.. prospects? I don't understand. Also Lebda got us Lombardi and Franson which got us a 1st, Leipsic, and a 4th. Which.. is pretty spectacular for Brett Lebda.

Percy may still be a Leaf....the rest Biggs, Ross and Finn were horrible picks, among the worse in the NHL.

Franson we got because we took on Lambardi contract as he was injured(major concussion) and he had years reminding on his contract. It was money(10,500,000) and not Ledba that got us Franson.

 

[BlueBaron]

How is it false? Sundin was already UFA by the time Burke arrived.

You said it had played out when obviously he had not decided his destination yet. Mats wanted to be a Leaf but was not wanted and moved on. He had not signed with anyone and ultimately it was Burke who told him he was not a good fit. This is the opposite of what you said thus making it false.

 

[ACC1224]

You said it had played out when obviously he had not decided his destination yet. Mats wanted to be a Leaf but was not wanted and moved on. He had not signed with anyone and ultimately it was Burke who told him he was not a good fit. This is the opposite of what you said thus making it false.

I was referring to Fletchers bumbling of trying to move him,which had played out.
Burke would have handled that better.

 

[tooncesmeow]

Percy may still be a Leaf....the rest Biggs, Ross and Finn were horrible picks, among the worse in the NHL.

Franson we got because we took on Lambardi contract as he was injured(major concussion) and he had years reminding on his contract. It was money(10,500,000) and not Ledba that got us Franson.

I'm not disputing that with Franson, but I bet you most GMs wouldn't be able to do that, if they were, then Franson wouldn't be a Leaf. You still need to have that idea, get in on those talks, pick that player, scout, and make the trade. It was a good trade. If that is what you expect frmo a GM, then... well.. the Leafs wouldn't have gotten Franson,w oudl they?

I don't think Finn or Biggs was the worst picks in the NHL. This isn't the NFL, being a 1st or 2nd rounder doesn't guarantee becoming a quality NHLer. I don't want to sound insulting, but I think this is an age thing. If you have been watching drafts for a while you just get used to it being a crapshoot. Sometimes you get a great player, sometimes you get a bust, it happens.

Looking at mock drafts, Biggs was primarily rated higher then he went. TSN had him 14th in their spring ranking, McGuire/Button had him at 23rd going to Pittsburgh, myNHLdraft had him going to Leafs at 30, NHL.com's Adam Kimmelman had him going to the Oilers at 19 during the Stanley Cup Playoffs that year, The Hockey Writers had him going at 34 to the Islanders. People saw a tough, physical, massive guy with good skating that could go to the dirty areas who also had leadership. He didn't start scoring and people got mad and declared him a bust, I'm not disputing that, but thats what people saw. I mean, THN also had the Leafs picking Schiefele going to Toronto at 30 as well so, who knows!

Finn was considered a steal, a smart two-way defender with good agility. He busts, it happens. Follow 5 teams draft records ove r5 years, you realize drafting is not a concrete science. And 2011 was coming off the Bruins cup when everyone declared ahving big tough guys to bully the small skill teams was the way to build teams and Toronto wasn't the only team trying to copy that mold. It always happens.