Remembering Burke and the 2012 draft

[ACC1224]

Fletchers dysfunction put a pretty big stain on Burkes tenure. Things would have been a whole lot better if the Leafs had gone straight from JFjr to Burke.

 

[hotpaws]

Ok, so name me some. Name me the teams that have undrafted top 6 players straight from college.

I'm not saying Burke should be hailed as a hero, but Leaf fans act like he was the second coming of Ballard when he wasn't. There is a small, small, small number of general managers that could come into this situation and do a better job.

It was more Dave Nonis and his nightmare summer of 2013 that ****ed the team up. Trading Frattin, 2nd round pick, and taking salary for Bernier helped no one. Buying out Grabovski and Komisarek helped no one, the Liles, Gleason trades didn't help anyone, Clarkson's nightmare signing, the ****** trade for Bolland where the Leafs gave up too much, you could argue the Gauthier drafting, there was a lot that one man did in 2 years that set the Leafs back horribly.

none of those moves set the team back , Burke dealing the picks that turned into Seguin-Hamilton-Saad set the team back

 

[jjjshab]

Ok, so name me some. Name me the teams that have undrafted top 6 players straight from college.

I'm not saying Burke should be hailed as a hero, but Leaf fans act like he was the second coming of Ballard when he wasn't. There is a small, small, small number of general managers that could come into this situation and do a better job.

It was more Dave Nonis and his nightmare summer of 2013 that ****ed the team up. Trading Frattin, 2nd round pick, and taking salary for Bernier helped no one. Buying out Grabovski and Komisarek helped no one, the Liles, Gleason trades didn't help anyone, Clarkson's nightmare signing, the ****** trade for Bolland where the Leafs gave up too much, you could argue the Gauthier drafting, there was a lot that one man did in 2 years that set the Leafs back horribly.

I feel like you're my spirit animal.

Burke's tenure was 5 years, and his team was contending in the 5th year. You can argue that they overachieved, but the man did what he said he would do.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm not impressed with the above when weighted against his overall body of work.

There is only one foreseeable way Burke can change his legacy in Toronto into a positive one- if Rielly becomes a superstar.

I don't think so. like I don't think Rielly being a superstar changes the fact Burke wasted 6 years of our Hockey-lives.

 

[hotpaws]

I feel like you're my spirit animal.

Burke's tenure was 5 years, and his team was contending in the 5th year. You can argue that they overachieved, but the man did what he said he would do.

when were we contending for a cup ?

 

[hotpaws]

Fletchers dysfunction put a pretty big stain on Burkes tenure. Things would have been a whole lot better if the Leafs had gone straight from JFjr to Burke.

just like Burkes dysfunction put a huge stain on Nonis tenure

 

[tooncesmeow]

none of those moves set the team back , Burke dealing the picks that turned into Seguin-Hamilton-Saad set the team back

Saad wasn't drafted with Toronto's pick, it was Calgary's pick that Toronto dealt to chicago back in 2009. Also Saad was never rumored to be on the Leafs radar, Tyler Biggs was the big powerforward of the future while Saad was listed as a defensive forward.

Please don't assume the Leafs would take Saad.

 

[jjjshab]

none of those moves set the team back , Burke dealing the picks that turned into Seguin-Hamilton-Saad set the team back

Pretty sure the Blackhawks wouldn't have drafted LW Phillip Danault ahead of Saad if it was so obvious what a player he would turn out to be. The Blackhawks even had another pick before they picked Saad. Every team had a pick before Saad was selected.

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Edmonton has been rebuilding since 2008, and even after 7 years and 4 1st overall selections they're at the bottom of the league. The Islanders spent the early 2000s being battered in teh 1st round by other teams before spending 2006-2014 drafting in the top 10 besides 2013 when they made the playoffs and picked 15th. The Blackhawks had 1 playoff appearance in 11 years. And you could argue none of these teams had an organization as barren and mismanaged as the Maple Leafs.

No team should expect to take 10 years to rebuild. If a team is still rebuilding after 10 years, then they are doing something wrong.

At the risk of going off tangent, the point is no one should've expected the Leafs to be 10 years away when Burke took over. It never should've taken this long. A regular GM could've rebuilt this team faster. And Burke was paid the big bucks to do even better than the regular GM. You have to screw up to make the rebuild last this long. But that's what happened.

 

[tooncesmeow]

just like Burkes dysfunction put a huge stain on Nonis tenure

Really? That was Nonis situation. The Leafs had 18.5M in cap space, the most of any team that had made the playoffs. He turned 18.5M into Tyler Bozak for 4 years, David Clarkson for 7, Jonathan Bernier, and Tim Gleason.

 

[hotpaws]

Saad wasn't drafted with Toronto's pick, it was Calgary's pick that Toronto dealt to chicago back in 2009. Also Saad was never rumored to be on the Leafs radar, Tyler Biggs was the big powerforward of the future while Saad was listed as a defensive forward.

Please don't assume the Leafs would take Saad.

Toronto owned that pick and pkged it with another to get our own 2nd back so Burke could offer sheet Kessel . If he didn't pursue the Kessel trade the pick wouldn't have been dealt , so yes Saad was taken with the Leaf pick .

you"re right saying Saad probably wouldn't have been drafted by us since Burke didn't value skill and size .

 

[jjjshab]

when were we contending for a cup ?

Isn't that the main goal of the playoffs? It wasn't like it was a team full of rentals.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I don't think so. like I don't think Rielly being a superstar changes the fact Burke wasted 6 years of our Hockey-lives.

I understand that way of thinking too. Nothing will bring back the wasted years of Burke's tenure. But I can at least concede that if Rielly becomes a long-term superstar for the Leafs, and I mean a real, franchise bonafide #1 defenceman, then at least Burke's incompetence will have put us in the position to draft Rielly (and draft him over other prospects at that). I hope that one day Rielly's service will outweigh what we lost with Seguin.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Fletchers dysfunction put a pretty big stain on Burkes tenure. Things would have been a whole lot better if the Leafs had gone straight from JFjr to Burke.

I doubt this very much.
As well as the fact, I find it very hard to believe that Fletcher would have traded Steen etc with Burke being hired roughly a few days later.

Yes.
Steen & Cola were traded Nov. 24th.
Burke was hired Nov. 29th.

and as I firmly doubt that this happened within that week. I do feel that the theory of, Burke was feeding Cliff some suggestions relatively accurate.

and EVEN if it's not- Brian Burke isn't as amazing as everyone is trying to wax poetic about.

none of those moves set the team back , Burke dealing the picks that turned into Seguin-Hamilton-Saad set the team back

yeup.

We've eliminated almost 2.5 draft classes of Burke's tenure here. we can remember Rielly but hello - look at Edmonton: What do we have AFTER him? (from the Burke era) ............

 

[hotpaws]

Really? That was Nonis situation. The Leafs had 18.5M in cap space, the most of any team that had made the playoffs. He turned 18.5M into Tyler Bozak for 4 years, David Clarkson for 7, Jonathan Bernier, and Tim Gleason.

18 m with the cap going up by millions that off season to sign 10 players is hardly great cap mgmt by a bottom end team

 

[tooncesmeow]

No team should expect to take 10 years to rebuild. If a team is still rebuilding after 10 years, then they are doing something wrong.

At the risk of going off tangent, the point is no one should've expected the Leafs to be 10 years away when Burke took over. It never should've taken this long. A regular GM could've rebuilt this team faster. And Burke was paid the big bucks to do even better than the regular GM. You have to screw up to make the rebuild last this long. But that's what happened.

I understand that, but its all contextual. A regular team underperforming from the playoffs should take 5-years to rebuild, that makes sense. The special cases where you just have no assets? That's a long rebuild. Burke didn't have assets to move and what he managed to get for his roster is amazing, but obviously the 5-year rebuild philosophy is not set in stone if you go by the progress of the latest teams to try it (Edmonton, Toronto, Florida, NYI, etc.)

I'd argue that between 2008-2012 Burke got more value out of his players then anyone else in the league. It was just the 2012 trade deadline where all he did was Aulie for Panik that crippled teh Leafs. If they comitted to either direction, the Leafs would have become something special. Imagine trading a peak value Lupul, or MacArthur, getting the "5 1st round picks" that would have been special. However that doesn't invalidate the work he did to shore up the Leafs prospect pool and roster simultaneously. He didn't cripple the Leafs salary situation, and most of his signings weren't crippling (like Connolly and his 2-year contract)

 

[jjjshab]

Really? That was Nonis situation. The Leafs had 18.5M in cap space, the most of any team that had made the playoffs.

Again, Lupul's extension was signed after Burke was fired. So that's an extra 5 schmil for 5 years...

 

[zeke]

I never laughed at Burke's claim.

the guys ahead of rielly were all flawed. yak was a small winger, murray had no offense so didn't project as a #1, galy wasn't much of a skater, and reinhart was so obviously the schenn/cowen of that draft it was hilarious.

rielly not only had the #1 dman upside, but his biggest weakness wasn't even a weakness - they said he was small when he was 6'1" 205lbs as an 18yr old, which was silly.

in terms of upside at a key position, Galchenyuk was the only other one that matched rielly, as he had legit #1 C upside. Except Galy's weakness - skating - was a much bigger issue than any part of rielly's game.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I understand that way of thinking too. Nothing will bring back the wasted years of Burke's tenure. But I can at least concede that if Rielly becomes a long-term superstar for the Leafs, and I mean a real, franchise bonafide #1 defenceman, then at least Burke's incompetence will have put us in the position to draft Rielly (and draft him over other prospects at that). I hope that one day Rielly's service will outweigh what we lost with Seguin.

Actually, I'll take this further and consider the butterfly effect of us being so bad continuing into 2014 and 2015. You might even say that thanks to Burke's incompetence, we were bad enough to draft Nylander and Marner, something which wouldn't have happened if Burke gave us a proper rebuild in the first place.

So if Rielly, Nylander and Marner lead us to a cup sometime in the 2020's, we can thank Burke for that. Thanks genius!

 

[Daisy Jane]

I understand that way of thinking too. Nothing will bring back the wasted years of Burke's tenure. But I can at least concede that if Rielly becomes a long-term superstar for the Leafs, and I mean a real, franchise bonafide #1 defenceman, then at least Burke's incompetence will have put us in the position to draft Rielly (and draft him over other prospects at that). I hope that one day Rielly's service will outweigh what we lost with Seguin.

Hmm. I guess. so.
and that is my hope too

Actually, I'll take this further and consider the butterfly effect of us being so bad continuing into 2014 and 2015. You might even say that thanks to Burke's incompetence, we were bad enough to draft Nylander and Marner, something which wouldn't have happened if Burke gave us a proper rebuild in the first place.

So if Rielly, Nylander and Marner lead us to a cup sometime in the 2020's, we can thank Burke for that. Thanks genius!

that's a nice positive spin of looking at things.

if we didn't have Burke, we don't have Nonis
if we don't have Nonis we don't have those last two years
we don't have Rielly, Nylander and Marner.

i can live with that.

 

[tooncesmeow]

18 m with the cap going up by millions that off season to sign 10 players is hardly great cap mgmt by a bottom end team

They only needed 7 more players to round out the roster, and had most of their top six and top 4 already signed. And they weren't a bottom end team, they were a playoff team that took the scary Boston Bruins to 7 games and you could argue that if Carlyle didn't mismanage the team, they could have beat the Bruins. They had the most cap space out of any team that made the playoffs and there was a decent free agent class to pick from.

 

[hotpaws]

Isn't that the main goal of the playoffs? It wasn't like it was a team full of rentals.

so why did the elite team-core continue to **** the bed the following seasons

 

[ACC1224]

I doubt this very much.
As well as the fact, I find it very hard to believe that Fletcher would have traded Steen etc with Burke being hired roughly a few days later.

Yes.
Steen & Cola were traded Nov. 24th.
Burke was hired Nov. 29th.

and as I firmly doubt that this happened within that week. I do feel that the theory of, Burke was feeding Cliff some suggestions relatively accurate.

and EVEN if it's not- Brian Burke isn't as amazing as everyone is trying to wax poetic about.



yeup.

We've eliminated almost 2.5 draft classes of Burke's tenure here. we can remember Rielly but hello - look at Edmonton: What do we have AFTER him? (from the Burke era) ............

No doubt Burke would have handled the Sundin situation much better, that alone would have changed the course of this team dramatically.

Many things Fletcher did were hard to believe, he shouldn't get a selective pass on that one.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I understand that, but its all contextual. A regular team underperforming from the playoffs should take 5-years to rebuild, that makes sense. The special cases where you just have no assets? That's a long rebuild. Burke didn't have assets to move and what he managed to get for his roster is amazing, but obviously the 5-year rebuild philosophy is not set in stone if you go by the progress of the latest teams to try it (Edmonton, Toronto, Florida, NYI, etc.)

I'd argue that between 2008-2012 Burke got more value out of his players then anyone else in the league. It was just the 2012 trade deadline where all he did was Aulie for Panik that crippled teh Leafs. If they comitted to either direction, the Leafs would have become something special. Imagine trading a peak value Lupul, or MacArthur, getting the "5 1st round picks" that would have been special. However that doesn't invalidate the work he did to shore up the Leafs prospect pool and roster simultaneously. He didn't cripple the Leafs salary situation, and most of his signings weren't crippling (like Connolly and his 2-year contract)

I think you're missing the bigger picture. If you want to say that Burke made some small positive moves, I can agree with that. But there is one move that defined his time here, and that is the one move that set us back. It doesn't matter what he did outside the Kessel trade because all of his other moves combined still had a smaller effect than the Kessel trade.

 

[diceman934]

Burke was horrible.....he left us with a mess and almost nothing in prospects.