GDT: Red Wings @ New Jersey Devils -7:00 EST- FS-D

[Dotter]

I doubt Ilitch's health had any say in what Holland was doing. It certainly didn't on the baseball side, and Ilitch seemed to be far more personally invested in the Tigers than the Wings over the last ten years.

Depends on if you want to believe Jim Devellano or not. Personally, I'll take what he says over what a few random forum members speculate what their opinion may be.

 

[Winger98]

I know that "re-building on the fly" has the word re-build in it, but I think that was a PR move and not any kind of an honest re-build effort. Have to believe that was just a ploy to push off an actual re-build for as long as possible and ride the playoff streak out so they could keep making money.

I'd lean this way, especially given how Holland did nothing that would actually help the "rebuild on the fly" actually succeed. He didn't scrape for extra picks, he didn't look to make any trades other than bringing in short term vets, he just kept the gang together as best he could and hoped he got a good roll of the dice that time around, pushing the organization towards entropy.

 

[Winger98]

Depends on if you want to believe Jim Devellano or not. Personally, I'll take what he says over what a few random forum members speculate what their opinion may be.

so, you're willing to believe the rebuild started in 2014, too? I mean, you put this much faith in Jimmy D.

 

[Dotter]

I'd lean this way, especially given how Holland did nothing that would actually help the "rebuild on the fly" actually succeed. He didn't scrape for extra picks, he didn't look to make any trades other than bringing in short term vets, he just kept the gang together as best he could and hoped he got a good roll of the dice that time around, pushing the organization towards entropy.

It'll be interesting to see what CHI does over the next couple of years. If they commit to a full-on rebuild or not. Also, Sharks. They're hovering around Wild Card territory like Detroit did when many DRW fans were shouting rebuild. It'll be interesting to see if they go for a tank next season... or if they prolong it. Lots of "garbage" "out of touch" GMs out there, I suspect. Only random message forum posters [armchair GMs] know the best true way to rebuild any and all NHL teams. GMs are bums when they're not reigning in those Stanely Cups. If only they listen to us forum posters, dammit!!!!

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It'll be interesting to see what CHI does over the next couple of years. If they commit to a full-on rebuild or not. Also, Sharks. They're hovering around Wild Card territory like Detroit did when many DRW fans were shouting rebuild. It'll be interesting to see if they go for a tank next season... or if they prolong it. Lots of "garbage" "out of touch" GMs out there, I suspect. Only random message forum posters [armchair GMs] know the best true way to rebuild any and all NHL teams. GMs are bums when they're not reigning in those Stanely Cups. If only they listen to us forum posters, dammit!!!!

If you have such obvious disdain for forum users and their opinions, why exactly are you here?

And with almost 5,000 posts to your name?

 

[Dotter]

so, you're willing to believe the rebuild started in 2014, too? I mean, you put this much faith in Jimmy D.

Yes I think they did. They were drafting and developping players and injecting youth into the roster; Emmerton, Kindl, Sheahan, Andersson and etc. And still re-tooled by signing Daniel Alfredsson. It was/is more of a natural rebuild just like now. Except the core was much better and Wings were attracting better UFA.

Is there only one type of rebuild?
In 2002 KH didn't inject youth, he signed Hasek, Hull, Luke and etc. That, in my opinion, is not "rebuilding". He traded draft picks.

Wings are not burning it down purposefully tanking (do teams often do that?). They are doing a much more aggressive rebuild since missing the playoffs last season. That's undeniable.

 

[Dotter]

If you have such obvious disdain for forum users and their opinions, why exactly are you here?

And with almost 5,000 posts to your name?

To post on a message forum and keep up with the news. I'm sure people come here for various reasons. Some come here to protest and use it as an outlet to change the hockey world and landscape -- to voice for change. That doesn't work, but I find it amusing non-the-less.

Why do you come here?

 

[Red Stanley]

I am saying it prolongs the time between winning championships and is secondary to the end goal, so it really shouldn't be so high on people's priorities.

Maybe you could explain what makes the streak so important that the rebuild should have been prolonged? Or argue that the rebuild started earlier and the streak being prolonged has no effect on the length of the rebuild (though it seems most people acknowledge the start of the rebuild as last season when the streak ended).

While I get the logic, time between championships is a pretty nebulous metric when referring to championships yet to be won. Personally, I loved the streak and wanted it to last forever. It's unlikely there will be another one like it in my lifetime. I will remember it as fondly as any of our championship runs. I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in this. That said, my user name is Red Stanley, not Red Playoff Streak. I'm well aware of the ultimate goal

It's no secret the organization valued the streak enough to put everything else on the back burner. It was an achievable immediate goal that more than just Holland must have agreed on. Even if I disagree, which I do in some ways, I understand the reasoning behind it. It's their careers, the stuff they worked so hard for and didn't want to give up on. To me it's just a hobby and a source of entertainment. Either way, they didn't ask my opinion. Their investment, their priorities. The most I can do is not give them my little chunk of money and tell them they suck on social media (which I do a lot of).

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

To post on a message forum and keep up with the news. I'm sure people come here for various reasons. Some come here to protest and use it as an outlet to change the hockey world and landscape -- to voice for change. That doesn't work, but I find it amusing non-the-less.

Why do you come here?

I don't understand the railing against people's opinions here versus those of GM's. It's a trump card that can be used against any discussion here. Of course GM's know better. Or they damn well should, at the very least because we're basing our arguments on a fraction of the information available to them. If people shouldn't post because they don't know as much as the GMs or players, this site would be empty.

I come here to discuss the sport and team I love.

And a part of that is analyzing and overanalyzing and debating things ad nauseam in spite of not having all the information or not knowing as much as the general manager of a multi-million dollar sports franchise. Otherwise it would just be me shrugging my shoulders and saying "I don't know as much as Holland so he must be doing the right thing." And what's the point in that?

 

[Dotter]

It's no secret the organization valued the streak enough to put everything else on the back burner. It was an achievable immediate goal that more than just Holland must have agreed on

Nope. It was just Ken Holland. Only Kenny, he's the only one. It has to be just Ken Holland. I know this because he's the one everyone blames in forum posts. Mike, Chris, Marion among Red Wings brass who've been part of this hockey club for the past 2 or 3 decades had no say what-so-ever. It was that damn "out of touch" kenny jaqoff.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Nope. It was just Ken Holland. Only Kenny, he's the only one. It has to be just Ken Holland. I know this because he's the one everyone blames in forum posts. Mike, Chris, Marion among Red Wings brass who've been part of this hockey club for the past 2 or 3 decades had no say what-so-ever. It was that damn "out of touch" kenny jaqoff.

Are you genuinely surprised that people blame the general manager? The person who "oversees all aspects of Detroit's hockey operations including all matters relating to player personnel, development, contract negotiations and player movements?"

Of course there are other factors at play, obviously the owners being an influence. But Holland is still the GM. He's still ultimately responsible. If Holland has a vastly different vision for the franchise that ownership won't let him execute, he should quit. Who knows how much Mike, Chris and Marion are involve in these decisions but it still comes down to Holland, even if it's shit rolling downhill. That's part of the job.

 

[Dotter]

I don't understand the railing against people's opinions here versus those of GM's. It's a trump card that can be used against any discussion here. Of course GM's know better. Or they damn well should, at the very least because we're basing our arguments on a fraction of the information available to them. If people shouldn't post because they don't know as much as the GMs or players, this site would be empty.

I come here to discuss the sport and team I love.

And a part of that is analyzing and overanalyzing and debating things ad nauseam in spite of not having all the information or not knowing as much as the general manager of a multi-million dollar sports franchise. Otherwise it would just be me shrugging my shoulders and saying "I don't know as much as Holland so he must be doing the right thing." And what's the point in that?

And discard any and all information that doesn't line up with their agenda or ideology.

 

[Dotter]

Are you genuinely surprised that people blame the general manager? The person who "oversees all aspects of Detroit's hockey operations including all matters relating to player personnel, development, contract negotiations and player movements?"

Of course there are other factors at play, obviously the owners being an influence. But Holland is still the GM. He's still ultimately responsible. If Holland has a vastly different vision for the franchise that ownership won't let him execute, he should quit. Who knows how much Mike, Chris and Marion are involve in these decisions but it still comes down to Holland, even if it's **** rolling downhill. That's part of the job.

Wow! Okay.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Wow! Okay.

Try bolding the whole sentence instead of taking it out of context. It reads differently.

If Holland has a vastly different vision for the franchise that ownership won't let him execute, he should quit.

The Wings are currently in 29th place. They have 11 ROWs in 36 games. If I had attained the level of success that Holland has in his career but was now forced to execute a plan that was vastly different than the one I believed would work, a plan that's resulted in the Wings being a maxed out cap team and a cellar dweller, I sure wouldn't stick around.

 

[Dotter]

Try bolding the whole sentence instead of taking it out of context. It reads differently.

If Holland has a vastly different vision for the franchise that ownership won't let him execute, he should quit.

Based on many old interviews I've read is EVERYONE was/is on board with the direction of the Red Wings. Starting from the top, you know, the guy writing checks. The only ones not on board is the "what have you done for me lately" instant gratification group.

I see and understand the plan; I see it unfolding before my eyes and I am completely satisfied with it. It seems like a well thought out and brilliant plan. I'd be proud if the Detroit Red Wings are once again "trend setters" in this uncharted territory.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Based on many old interviews I've read is EVERYONE was on board with the direction of the Red Wings. Starting from the top, you know, the guy writing checks. The only ones not on board is the "what have you done for me lately" group.

I see and understand the plan; I see it unfolding before my eyes and I am completely satisfied with it. It seems like a well thought out and brilliant plan. I'd be proud if the Detroit Red Wings are once again "trend setters" in this uncharted territory.

Do you really think after 20 years as GM, Chris Ilitch is telling Holland what roster moves to make? I'm guessing ownership is generally on board with the plan for the team. I'm also guessing they don't love spending to the cap while being nearly in last place. That doesn't mean Holland shouldn't take heat for it from fans.

Your position seems to be that you have some greater knowledge than the "what have you done for me lately" group, when really it's just a differing opinion based on the same limited information.

 

[Dotter]

Do you really think after 20 years as GM, Chris Ilitch is telling Holland what roster moves to make? I'm guessing ownership is generally on board with the plan for the team. I'm also guessing they don't love spending to the cap while being nearly in last place. That doesn't mean Holland shouldn't take heat for it from fans.

Your position seems to be that you have some greater knowledge than the "what have you done for me lately" group, when really it's just a differing opinion based on the same limited information.

I doubt Chris is sitting next to Ken Holland whispering in his year. I think it is most definitely highly probably, without a doubt, there was a group round table meeting with ALL brass and think tanks to come up with a 10 year plan. I think revenue was discussed and gave Kenny the greenlight to spend; basically buy draft picks. Wings pay Vanek not just for fan entertainment for goals, but they used him as trade bait to buy extra draft picks. Same with Mike Green. Same with Ott. Same is going to be with Daley.

Fan entertainment + buying extra draft picks for the rebuild -- it cost money. Iltich is fine with that because it is all part of the 10 year plan. I do think this is Ken Holland's last year as GM. When Kenny retires, expect the same trend to continue. The next one will continue where he left off. The longer they are out of the playoffs, I expect to see a more aggressive approach as UFA are going to be harder to sign.

 

[Red Stanley]

Are you genuinely surprised that people blame the general manager? The person who "oversees all aspects of Detroit's hockey operations including all matters relating to player personnel, development, contract negotiations and player movements?"

Of course there are other factors at play, obviously the owners being an influence. But Holland is still the GM. He's still ultimately responsible. If Holland has a vastly different vision for the franchise that ownership won't let him execute, he should quit. Who knows how much Mike, Chris and Marion are involve in these decisions but it still comes down to Holland, even if it's **** rolling downhill. That's part of the job.

I'd be shocked if it were only upper management/ownership that wanted the streak to go on for as long as possible. And, yes, the GM is ultimately responsible and should take the brunt of the criticism.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Nah, this is a weak take. Take a look around the league, teams aren't waiting 5-7 years for their really good prospects to make an impact. It's a young mans game now, when the prospect is good, they're making an impact sooner than ever. Larkin and Mantha look fine, Larkin is trending in the right direction to be a really good two-way player.

Fans have definitely been patient, most fans have been waiting for 4 years for the rebuild to really take shape. Now it's overripe and spoiling.

Again, thinking a rebuild HAS to take 10 years is flat out wrong. I'll keep repeating myself, the 10 year rebuilds happen when bad management screws stuff up for the first 6 or 7.

We're not waiting 5-7 years either. Larkin made an impact 2 years after he was drafted, Mantha took a little longer but still around 4 years. But "impact" and "reached potential" can be different things. And the general rule is higher picks take less time. Take a look around the league and other teams have, all of them, more high picks than us in the last decades.

There's nothing saying a rebuild has to take 10 years. But it's all about how you define a rebuild, when it "starts" and when it's "finished". I mean in reality there's rarely any hard lines to either of those.

So if we're saying wings fans aren't patient than i guess this same posters are being patient with Edmonton, Arizona, Florida, etc

Whether it' four drafts removed or six who cares, you DO NOT get to be the one to pick four as the cutoff just to suit your arguement

I better not ever see those same posters saying, look at Edmonton or Arizona do you wanna be them. They should just be "patient"

We have been rebuilding on the fly for seven years, not 11 months.

¨
Look... Edmonton hasn't made the playoffs 2 years in a row since 00-01. Arizona's missed 9 out of 12 seasons in the cap era. Florida's had 4 top 3 picks since 2010.

We're about the miss the playoffs for 2 years in a row for the first time since 1983. Larkin in 2014 was our first top 15 pick since 1991. I think you need some perspective on the word "patience".

Look it what have been great if we had started re-building 4 years ago, but we didn't. And I understand why we didn't, even if I disagree with why we didn't. We traded for Zidlicky and Cole at the 2015 TDL. Team was clearly not re-building at that point in time.

We are in maybe year 2 of the re-build... at best.

That's a pretty silly black/white view of things. Is Arizona rebuilding? Their trade for Stepan was significantly bigger than the Zidlicky/Cole trades combined. We've had one eye fixed on the future since 2012. Of course you're not making moves that are clearly defined as rebuilding moves while you have a 100+ point team, but it's not as simple as one minor move negating the larger trend going on.

So what's wrong with thinking an approach at least somewhat more aggressive than the current one makes more sense?

Nothing. And I'd even agree that we're entering a stage of the rebuild where some more "aggressive" moves start to become warranted.

 

[Frk It]

We're not waiting 5-7 years either. Larkin made an impact 2 years after he was drafted, Mantha took a little longer but still around 4 years. But "impact" and "reached potential" can be different things. And the general rule is higher picks take less time. Take a look around the league and other teams have, all of them, more high picks than us in the last decades.

There's nothing saying a rebuild has to take 10 years. But it's all about how you define a rebuild, when it "starts" and when it's "finished". I mean in reality there's rarely any hard lines to either of those.

¨
Look... Edmonton hasn't made the playoffs 2 years in a row since 00-01. Arizona's missed 9 out of 12 seasons in the cap era. Florida's had 4 top 3 picks since 2010.

We're about the miss the playoffs for 2 years in a row for the first time since 1983. Larkin in 2014 was our first top 15 pick since 1991. I think you need some perspective on the word "patience".


That's a pretty silly black/white view of things. Is Arizona rebuilding? Their trade for Stepan was significantly bigger than the Zidlicky/Cole trades combined. We've had one eye fixed on the future since 2012. Of course you're not making moves that are clearly defined as rebuilding moves while you have a 100+ point team, but it's not as simple as one minor move negating the larger trend going on.


Nothing. And I'd even agree that we're entering a stage of the rebuild where some more "aggressive" moves start to become warranted.

I disagree with that 100%... but if you believe that, when do you think the re-build started?

Had 0 eye on the future with that garbage Legwand trade... that was a pure in the moment trade. The whole Dan Cleary fiasco was an eye on the future?!?! C’mon man.

To say since 2012 is just blaspheme.

 

[Dotter]

I disagree with that 100%... but if you believe that, when do you think the re-build started?

Had 0 eye on the future with that garbage Legwand trade... that was a pure in the moment trade. The whole Dan Cleary fiasco was an eye on the future?!?! C’mon man.

To say since 2012 is just blaspheme.

What is considered a rebuild? Drafting and injecting youth? Ken Holland announced back in 2008(?) that "draft picks are more valuable than gold" or something along those line. In that time, he acquired many draft picks and gave up only 1? Unlike pre-cap era. And current playoff teams are okay with trading draft picks for playoff depth. Ken Holland doesn't do that. He had traded a couple of young players with no future here for depth. But only players that went all disgruntled to the media, or players with no future.

What DO YOU consider rebuilding? Is it scorched earth tanking? Is it trying to purposefully lose hockey game for top10 picks?

I believe phase 1 started when Kenny stopped trading draft picks. And it went to phase 2 when he started trading roster players for draft picks. I think phase 3 comes soon.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I doubt Chris is sitting next to Ken Holland whispering in his year. I think it is most definitely highly probably, without a doubt, there was a group round table meeting with ALL brass and think tanks to come up with a 10 year plan. I think revenue was discussed and gave Kenny the greenlight to spend; basically buy draft picks. Wings pay Vanek not just for fan entertainment for goals, but they used him as trade bait to buy extra draft picks. Same with Mike Green. Same with Ott. Same is going to be with Daley.

Fan entertainment + buying extra draft picks for the rebuild -- it cost money. Iltich is fine with that because it is all part of the 10 year plan. I do think this is Ken Holland's last year as GM. When Kenny retires, expect the same trend to continue. The next one will continue where he left off. The longer they are out of the playoffs, I expect to see a more aggressive approach as UFA are going to be harder to sign.

I agree with all of this. So I can't remember what exactly it was we were arguing about?

 

[jkutswings]

If rebuilding is defined by such a vague notion as "drafting and injecting youth", then every team in the league is rebuilding every year.

I define it as taking an existing roster that can no longer compete for a championship, and dismantling it to a great extent, in order to reconstruct it with different parts (to try to once again compete for a championship).

1-2 vanilla moves per year for a decade isn't really a rebuild, so much as keeping the engine in neutral.

 

[Redder Winger]

I see and understand the plan; I see it unfolding before my eyes and I am completely satisfied with it. It seems like a well thought out and brilliant plan. I'd be proud if the Detroit Red Wings are once again "trend setters" in this uncharted territory.

 

[avssuc]

What is considered a rebuild? Drafting and injecting youth? Ken Holland announced back in 2008(?) that "draft picks are more valuable than gold" or something along those line. In that time, he acquired many draft picks and gave up only 1?

Bad math, disastrous talking point to support the country club...