GDT: Red Wings @ New Jersey Devils -7:00 EST- FS-D

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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No, this team is playing exactly to the level of their talent.

So were two extra seasons of being first round fodder worth watching this?


No. Basically, any deadline move from KFQ until last year was a stupid move by a GM who somehow thought he could just keep winning.

It was pretty f***ing obvious in 2011 and 2012 that this organization didn't have the next Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg anywhere in the system, so Holland should have known better than to continue mortgaging future assets.
 
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jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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That is dripping in Hindsight. Few would have accepted that with Datsyuk and Zetterberg still in town and Kronwall's knee still aligned.
I wanted Datsyuk traded after the Chicago series, thinking it would be the last opportunity to maximize his value before things really started to go south. Got criticized badly for the suggestion, but, on paper, that was the last time this roster had the chance for a shakeup, rather than a slow death.

It's not any consolation to be right. Just a lot of facepalms at how things unfolded.
 
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Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
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That is dripping in Hindsight. Few would have accepted that with Datsyuk and Zetterberg still in town and Kronwall's knee still aligned.
Not hindsight at all. The smart move at that point was to play kids and trade impending free agents, not sign them to awful reward contracts. It's what some of us have been saying since Lidstrom retired. The only way you could have possibly maintained the status quo was if Suter signed here. Instead we hear what ifs regarding Super and Stamkos and lament no one could have seen the bottom falling out. The biggest issue by far was Holland being too old and tired and comfortable to embrace risk. So he peddled a story about how the team could rebuild off the backs of Abby, Helm, Ericsson and Howard. I'm embarrassed for most of the people who believed that, with the others it's not a shock at all.
 

Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
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I wanted Datsyuk traded after the Chicago series, thinking it would be the last opportunity to maximize his value before things really started to go south. Got criticized badly for the suggestion, but, on paper, that was the last time this roster had the chance for a shakeup, rather than a slow death.

It's not any consolation to be right. Just a lot of facepalms at how things unfolded.

Eh, I didn't see trading Pav as an option. He was one of the only entertaining guys on the roster. The move was to trade impending UFAs and play kids.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
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Eh, I didn't see trading Pav as an option. He was one of the only entertaining guys on the roster. The move was to trade impending UFAs and play kids.

I don't think hardly any of us wanted them to trade Datsyuk or Zetterberg right then which is what I was getting at. I just don't believe he can walk in after that Nashville series where two months earlier they lead the league in points and even with Lidstrom retiring think they are dead in the water. Especially since they are about to pitch Suter in that summer. That is a decision they have to make by the draft to blow that thing apart.

I hate a lot of the middle of the road guys having the contracts they do. But all great things come to an end. It happened to Bill Torrey in Long Island, it happened to Lou in New Jersey.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
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I wanted Datsyuk traded after the Chicago series, thinking it would be the last opportunity to maximize his value before things really started to go south. Got criticized badly for the suggestion, but, on paper, that was the last time this roster had the chance for a shakeup, rather than a slow death.

It's not any consolation to be right. Just a lot of facepalms at how things unfolded.
I think you are at least a year early on that, mainly because those series showed a hint of what could have been (at the time) with the kids in Tatar and Nyquist (and maybe DD on the way being a top-4 defender and helping pave the way for the new defensive core) showing flashes of great play and the team feeling more cohesive. It was revealed over the next couple years to be a fluke run, but I don't think it would have been necessarily prudent to go into full rebuild right after that season.
 

Claypool

Registered User
Jan 12, 2009
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I wanted Datsyuk traded after the Chicago series, thinking it would be the last opportunity to maximize his value before things really started to go south. Got criticized badly for the suggestion, but, on paper, that was the last time this roster had the chance for a shakeup, rather than a slow death.

It's not any consolation to be right. Just a lot of facepalms at how things unfolded.

No one cares about your hot takes. You’re talking about things that happened 5 years ago. Come up with some new material if you’re going to try and act like you know what you’re talking about.
 

Winger98

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I don't think going into a full rebuild was ever really necessary, and is now impossible due to the contracts on the book. Instead of dealing Datsyuk or Z away, we should have been dealing the secondary guys like Gator and Helm, and maybe even Hudler/Flip if we wanted to be extra aggressive. We could have even immediately waded into free agency to bring in some vet help after dealing those guys, or letting them walk, and have a pretty similar lineup now but while having the benefit of adding some extra picks.

The fact that Holland has managed to blow $80 million on a roster and still have it fall to pieces will possibly be a saving grace for this franchise, and a little scary.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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A full rebuild? Right now? Give me a credible way the Wings can move the majority of crap deals off this roster.

They look to be bad real bad for probably the next two or three years. Good news most of the problematic contracts are ready to graduate as they are spiking back up. It sure isn't ideal, but they can do the rebuild now. They need to stay completely out of free agency this summer though. Seriously don't care who is out there, sign our younger guys and get crunched again next year.
 

Claypool

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A full rebuild? Right now? Give me a credible way the Wings can move the majority of crap deals off this roster.
They obviously can’t move it all in one off season. No rebuild can be done in one off season. There’s also a cap floor they have to consider. They’ll move these contract over the course of the next three or four seasons. You guys are freaking out over nothing.
 

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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I don't think going into a full rebuild was ever really necessary, and is now impossible due to the contracts on the book. Instead of dealing Datsyuk or Z away, we should have been dealing the secondary guys like Gator and Helm, and maybe even Hudler/Flip if we wanted to be extra aggressive. We could have even immediately waded into free agency to bring in some vet help after dealing those guys, or letting them walk, and have a pretty similar lineup now but while having the benefit of adding some extra picks.

The fact that Holland has managed to blow $80 million on a roster and still have it fall to pieces will possibly be a saving grace for this franchise, and a little scary.


It's f***ing obvious coming into to the season where Helm and Abby were due for contracts what was going to happen.
The Suicide Pills - Red Wing Center
It didn't take hindsight.
It just took an understanding of how Holland approaches his job.

It's the same way you knew Dekeyser would get overpaid and that Larkin will almost surely get overpaid (although I'm guessing most RW fans will be happy with the contract - at first).

The Wings didn't need to trade Abdelkader or Helm. But Holland needed to have the f***ing guts to let them walk if they wanted that money.
Seriously. What do you lose? A couple of grinders?



You can trace Holland's mistakes back to 2010. When he lost Hossa he brought back Bertuzzi - who was past it. And resigned him again.
He brought back Cleary and forced Tatar and Nyquist to stay in GR too long.
He resigned Samuelsson. He signed Modano. He signed Tootoo - even though Babcock seemed to have no interest in him. He signed Commodore and Colaiacovo and White even though we had to find time for Kindl and Smith. He traded a f***ing first for KFQ, who sucked. And even after signing Dekeyser he resigned KFQ. And then resigned him again - even though Kindl and Smith still needed to play.

And by having all these KFQs and Smiths and Kindls and everyone else struggling to get icetime, there was no room to call up all those kids who crowded the blueline in Grand Rapids.

And there needs to be some talk about what exactly has happened to the Red Wings' development model. Because a team that won an AHL championship with a ton of young prospects has done a piss-poor job of developing them.
Tatar - Not bad, but hasn't lived up to expectations.
Nyquist - ditto
Mrazek - Totally gone off the rails.
Pulkkinen - Got nowhere despite incredible production in GR.
Jurco - Great start and then he got stapled to the 4th line.
Sheahan - Great start and went south.
Ouellet - Currently behind Witkowski on the depth chart
Sproul - Was considered the best D prospect for awhile.
Backman -
Marchenko -
Ferraro - Solid two way forward with speed seemed past his injury troubles, but just never found room in Detroit.
Jarnkrok - was reportedly traded because he was not happy in Grand Rapids.
Joakim Andersson - 4th line center showed decent two way ability at times.
Almquist - 1 goal in two games for the pint sized defender. Posted a 53 point season in GR.
 
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Martinez

Go Blue
Oct 10, 2015
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Bert is looking more comfortable. We had solid 2nd and 3rd periods effort wise. Just need more skill
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
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Take it away Tobias,

tenor.gif
 

Dotter

THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Jul 2, 2014
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Time to sell Kenny, there is nothing left to evaluate with the team this year. It is over.

Play the kids, glad AA and Mantha were actually out there imagine if we didn't spend the first minute messing around and put the kids that skate well enough that they wouldn't forecheck our D like that out of fear.... But hey at least they got a crack at the end of the game. Tough luck for AA on the stick break.

I think the best time to sell is when the league has the most buyers to help drive up the return. Still too many teams not sure if they are buyers or sellers yet.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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We played a solid game, just couldn't score. The PP was pretty weak apart from the last one. Larkin was awesome as always. AA and Mantha look like they're waiting for the offseason.

No. Basically, any deadline move from KFQ until last year was a stupid move by a GM who somehow thought he could just keep winning.

It was pretty ****ing obvious in 2011 and 2012 that this organization didn't have the next Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg anywhere in the system, so Holland should have known better than to continue mortgaging future assets.
We didn't have the next Lids/Dats/Z in the system, but he should have been deathly afraid of moving Jarnkrok/Janmark/Backman? LOL.

"mortgaging assets".. last asset of importance he traded was 2012 1st. And yeah, Vasielevsky (who we probably wouldn't have drafted) or Maatta might have helped this team right now. Boo-f***-hoo. As far as mortgaging assets go, Holland has done an amazing job of not losing any prospects of importance and holding on to as many picks as possible, as well as adding extras (Mantha+Bert, Cholo+Hronek) when possible. You don't get to rewrite history into Holland somehow throwing assets away between 2012-17, it's just not true. Minimal TDL trades for a team with minimal playoff hopes. Now had he done something like the Turris-Duchene trade you'd have a point...
No, this team is playing exactly to the level of their talent.

So were two extra seasons of being first round fodder worth watching this?
Does not compute. But yeah, 25 years of playoffs was worth 2 seasons out of the playoffs. What was the question again? Did you ask Toronto fans during their tanking years if 8 years outside the playoffs was worth watching a bottom 5 team? Are you saying tanking 3 years ago would have been more fun? And please, do ignore seasons that logically should have tanking years but Babcock coached the team to hell and back and kids like Nyquist or Mrazek played like superstar talents. It's funny how rosters with a lot more talent and a lot better coaching actually do better in the standings, and how GMs rarely blow up those teams for no reason at all other than "well, we're going to be bad eventually, why not get bad right now so fans on hfboards can blame me for making the team bad right now instead of a few years from now?".
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
11,052
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They obviously can’t move it all in one off season. No rebuild can be done in one off season. There’s also a cap floor they have to consider. They’ll move these contract over the course of the next three or four seasons. You guys are freaking out over nothing.
Nice to know that being playoff cannon fodder for 2-3 years, then missing outright for a couple years, then needing at least another 3-4 years just to turn the roster over, let alone see anything start to come to fruition...is "freaking out over nothing". This is a very mismanaged franchise.

And to answer your condescension about getting new material, it's kinda difficult to do so, when the organization keeps dragging the mess out using the same methods. If they sell Green+, then the next six months consist of bringing up kids and limiting UFAs to Vanek-esque deals, that gets a thumbs up. But if Kenny returns, I expect him to land at least 1-2 very average veterans for more term and AAV than they deserve, repeating the sins of the past yet again.

Selling at the deadline is common sense. But then going right back to 'win now mode' in the summer should've ended awhile ago, and the current dinosaur doesn't seem able, let alone eager, to realize the emperor no longer has any clothes on.
 

Dotter

THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Jul 2, 2014
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GMs rarely blow up those teams for no reason at all other than "well, we're going to be bad eventually, why not get bad right now so fans on hfboards can blame me for making the team bad right now instead of a few years from now?".

Exactly. I doubt you'll see Chicago blow it up even though Toews and Kane are about a year or two away from where Red Wings started their downswing with an aging Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

Do you think Blackhawks are going to trade Kane and Toews in the next couple years to start a new rebuild? I highly doubt it.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Nice to know that being playoff cannon fodder for 2-3 years, then missing outright for a couple years, then needing at least another 3-4 years just to turn the roster over, let alone see anything start to come to fruition...is "freaking out over nothing". This is a very mismanaged franchise.
Call it playoff fodder if you want, I wonder if Tampa fans felt the same when they were pushed to 7 games and narrowly got that win despite (or because?) we lost Glendening and Kronwall. In the history books, there will be a 25 year playoff streak. Then a few or some years outside the playoffs to start turning things around. Like it or not, no one will say "oh they were so mismanaged for making the playoffs 25 years, they should have started a rebuild much sooner" except that old guy in the back of the bar drowning himself in whiskey as he talks about how HE knew, he knew that the team would decline when their star players got old, he knew they were gonna get bad eventually.. if only they had listened to him, they could have become bad much sooner!

If this team makes any impact in the playoffs within 6-7 years they're ahead of the curve as far as most rebuilds go.
 

TheOtherOne

Registered User
Jan 2, 2010
8,274
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I wanted Datsyuk traded after the Chicago series, thinking it would be the last opportunity to maximize his value before things really started to go south. Got criticized badly for the suggestion, but, on paper, that was the last time this roster had the chance for a shakeup, rather than a slow death.

It's not any consolation to be right. Just a lot of facepalms at how things unfolded.
Well, I wanted to trade Yzerman in '03, so take that!
 

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