When myers eventually plays on an actual nhl team...whether via trade or waiting the years for buffalo to become one...there's going to be a massive reevaluation of him on this board from the people who are so sure he's trash because stats and stuff.
Red Wings at the deadline
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Hammettf2b
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I'm sure Babcock would love to have Meyers, even if it cost us Mantha (assuming Babcock plans on staying with the Wings). We have an abundance of wingers already.
TheOctopusKid
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- Sep 24, 2010
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I know that Weiss has a NMC - however, does it make sense in terms of the price point and the demands of both teams that a Weiss for Green trade makes sense?
The Caps demands are fairly simple - Top 6 Forward who can help them win now and not give the illusion that they are giving up on the season for depth.
The Wings are in need a right handed offensively minded D, which Green gives them.
It seems unlikely that the Wings would part with a Top 6 forward who is young and under contract (Tatar, Nyquist, ect), and the Caps don't want a prospect or a pick unless it can help them in a playoff run (a la Pulks).
So we come to Weiss - he for all intent and purpose, was a top 6 Center (the biggest need for the Caps the last 3 years) - who in limited time with the Wings (17pts in 28 games), has produced and seems like he is injury free at this point. He is locked down for the next 3 seasons and would give the Caps their 2nd line Center and reallocate the salary to their forward corp from their very salary heavy D.
For the Wings, it isn't a massive overpayment in terms of giving up assets for a potential rental as Green could walk in the off-season and the fact we are currently utilizing Weiss as a 4th line Winger but have able bodies to fill that slot with minimal impact.
Is this not a Win/Win?
The Caps demands are fairly simple - Top 6 Forward who can help them win now and not give the illusion that they are giving up on the season for depth.
The Wings are in need a right handed offensively minded D, which Green gives them.
It seems unlikely that the Wings would part with a Top 6 forward who is young and under contract (Tatar, Nyquist, ect), and the Caps don't want a prospect or a pick unless it can help them in a playoff run (a la Pulks).
So we come to Weiss - he for all intent and purpose, was a top 6 Center (the biggest need for the Caps the last 3 years) - who in limited time with the Wings (17pts in 28 games), has produced and seems like he is injury free at this point. He is locked down for the next 3 seasons and would give the Caps their 2nd line Center and reallocate the salary to their forward corp from their very salary heavy D.
For the Wings, it isn't a massive overpayment in terms of giving up assets for a potential rental as Green could walk in the off-season and the fact we are currently utilizing Weiss as a 4th line Winger but have able bodies to fill that slot with minimal impact.
Is this not a Win/Win?
Hammettf2b
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Weiss has to waive for anything to happen. That is what would kill it. Also I really don't get why people are willing to offer max term for green as a ufa. Your rationale in describing is coherent however. But a hometown boy waiving to uproot his family isn't very likely.
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
He's 25 and has already been in the NHL for 6 seasons. He's not trash by any means, but he's not the upper echelon of defensemen that Sabres' management (and fans) want to sell him as either. If he was, Sabres wouldn't be in 30th place in the entire NHL with a whopping 33 points.
He should be valued at what he is, not what Sabres hope he becomes.
EDIT:
There could also just as easily be a future reevaluation of him on this board saying "boy, that Kenny Holland sure did dodge that bullet! Myers never became the player people hoped he'd someday become, whew!"
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That's a disaster of a deal for the Wings. Much rather see the Wings roll with what they have than toss valuable roster assets at the Caps for a rental...even if it is Green.
detredWINgs
Registered User
That's not very telling. The Wings are probably going to want to go prospect-heavy if they make any deals. We've got too many legit kids and I think with Tatar and Nyquist's late emergence, the Wings GR kids are getting more respect than a lot of teams AHL kids would at 22 or 23.
Also, that still leaves the 2016 available.
Lil Sebastian Cossa
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Yeah, that's not a disaster of a deal for the Wings.
It's actually a pretty damn good one. Weiss is being used as a 4th line winger most nights in Detroit. If you could get Mike Green straight up for him, you call up Teemu Pulkkinen to stay and you get a solid top 4 D who is RH and will rock on the PP.
That trade would work out perfectly for Detroit.
to be fair to myers, 100% guarnteed if nick kronwall was on the sabres this season the sabres would still be in 30th place and I am certain many people feel kronwall is an upper echelon dman, some say even top 15-20 in the league.
heck if zetterberg were on the sabres this year that team would still be dead last...
Ugh. A FINALLY healthy Weiss and his very reasonable contract are worth far more than a few months of Green. Really glad Weiss has a nmc and this has zero chance of happening.
TheOctopusKid
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I'm not sure if Weiss wouldn't consider the move. As it stands, he plays fourth line minutes and sits some nights as well. I can't imagine he is pleased with that. This would give him the opportunity to move to a major city, who is a playoff team and has star teammates. It's not like it a Buffalo like situation.
As for it being a disasterous trade, I'm not sure I would qualify Weiss as a valuable roster asset. his replacement value is low given the role that Babs is using him in. 4th wing is pretty easy to fill. However even if Green were a rental it gives us a Top 10 offensive defense man who is a PP QB and right handed. This is a guy who would play 20+ min a night with 3+ on the PP versus a right wing who plays sub 10...and in that limited capacity, do you think someone like Pulks couldn't step in immediately and we would miss a beat?
As for it being a disasterous trade, I'm not sure I would qualify Weiss as a valuable roster asset. his replacement value is low given the role that Babs is using him in. 4th wing is pretty easy to fill. However even if Green were a rental it gives us a Top 10 offensive defense man who is a PP QB and right handed. This is a guy who would play 20+ min a night with 3+ on the PP versus a right wing who plays sub 10...and in that limited capacity, do you think someone like Pulks couldn't step in immediately and we would miss a beat?
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
I'm not buying it. Devils have a **** roster and are 17 points ahead of them with less games played.
If this, if that... if the earth was square he would be a better hockey player. That sure is a lot of hoping to be giving up premium assets for. I wouldn't take the risk and sounds like Holland isn't either.... thank goodness!
i think the devils roster is ten times better. schneider, cammy, jagr, elias, henrique are way better than anything the sabres can throw over the boards.
you really think the sabres exact roster minus myers but plus kronwall are anything but the 30th place team in the league?
come on now
Chex LeMeneux
Registered User
Are people seriously considering trading Mantha for Myers now? I can see it now, thread after thread of people whining about Holland being the worst GM in the league because every time we meet Buffalo for the next 10+ years, McDavid and Mantha destroy us. Yeah, no thanks
Heaton
Moderator
I'm still waiting for one of these players who we trade to tear it up. I remember when we traded Matthias, some people went berserk. Yeah, he's no good. Same with losing Ritola and Mursak, haven't seen them in an NHL jersey. Then we lost Leino and he had one great year with Philly, and some people were howling when he got a big contract and blasted Babcock, he's terrible. Jarnkrok is still young, but he doesn't look effective on a good team and I don't see him being an elite talent.
I'm not advocating trading Mantha, I'm not defending the Jarnkrok trade, but Holland does seem to know the value of his prospects. So, if we trade Mantha, I wouldn't be overly concerned depending on the return.
You're seriously asking me if I think Pulkkinen can immediately replace the highest PPM player on the Wings roster?
Ummm...no?
I like Pulkkinen as a prospect and I think the kid could have what it takes to make an impact in the nhl, but Stephen Weiss is a career .586/GP nhler...and that's with a 708 game sample size. Pulkkinen has produced .111/GP in his extensive 9 game nhl career.
Chex LeMeneux
Registered User
Fair enough. I guess it's good that Holland considers Mantha untouchable then. If Holland is so good at gauging the value of his prospects, I think that should be very telling for those who want to include him in any deal for Myers.
if people are going to project mantha hitting his ceiling as a nhl player 3, 5, 7 , 10 years from now then one has no choice but to do the exact same thing for myers.
so if the fear is that mantha WILL become vanek ripping it up with mcdavid then one has no choice in an intelligent debate but to also assume myers WILL become zdeno chara patrolling our blueline as an elite and dominant defender.
yah i would make that trrade
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Daniel Cleary was good back in 2009. Babcock should bench Jurco and play Cleary, amiright?
Kronwall on Sabres would be superstar elite if the earth had 10% less gravitational pull.
Gotta love those "what if" questions
detredWINgs
Registered User
Were people complaining about the possibility of these guys tearing it up against us? I don't really recall that. With Matthias, it was the fact that we gave up one of our biggest prospects in a time where, if we were losing guys, the fanbase collectively fell back on the idea that we were too small and too soft. With Ritola and Mursak, it was that they weren't given a "fair" chance in the NHL. Leino was a regret that maybe we have given up on him too soon. The issue with Jarnkrok was (and still is) that we gave up way too much for a guy like Legwand. And with Nestrasil - losing a guy that someone wanted so we could pay Dan Cleary $2.5M still isn't something that warms the heart, and I didn't particularly like Nestrasil.
With Mantha, its a totally different story since he has the highest ceiling of any prospect we've had in decades and is physically imposing to boot. There is a legitimate fear that he could become at least a James Neal type of player. And with an Eichel or McDavid centering him, it could be Malkin-Neal all over again during a time when were Datsyuk-less.
Chex LeMeneux
Registered User
The problem with that argument is that Mantha is 20, near the beginning of his development cycle. Myers is 25 and near the end. The only point in his career where I'd concede that he had Chara potential was his rookie season. Since then he's regressed, he's learned nothing but bad habits playing on a god-awful team that has next to no system (which would be difficult to adjust to). Chances are, he's as good as he gets right now. And right now he doesn't hold a candle to even a declining Chara. He's not Norris caliber. He's not even a #1 defenseman on a good team.
Compare that to a 6'5" goalscorer who has plus skating and hands, whose biggest problem is in his head and can be fixed with good leadership. A player like that is exceptionally rare. Now add to that the fact that it's likely going to cost Mantha++ for Myers. At the end of the day it's 50/50 you're giving up the best player in the deal plus two additional assets. I do not make that trade. In fact I stay far away from that trade.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Myers is not done developing and will very likely improve substantially at his next stop. He still has done very little to merit moving Mantha for him who has limitless potential. They shouldn't move Mantha for Myers in my opinion. There are suitable trades, maybe not to the Buffalo fan-base but there are options where we don't have to send Mantha or Larkin and if they don't win that fine, but there is no reason to become fixated on him and pay too steep of a price.
However, he is by no means done developing. 25 year old D-man are absolutely still developing.
detredWINgs
Registered User
Now that's just silly. You have "no choice" but to believe both? People can be of the opinion that Myers will not become anything more than he is and that Mantha will become an elite player. Its not like there is zero precedent for players flying out of the gate early in their careers and then falling off and zero precedent for goal scorers not being NHL shoe-ins at 20.
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
Mantha+an okay RD >>> an okay winger+Tyler Myers in my book. If Tyler Myers were LH, we wouldn't even be talking about this. If I'm going to pay a premium price, I want a little more player with my right handed shot.
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