Red Wings at the Deadline III

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Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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At least the Rags took a chance. A risk. Something Holland never does. Who cares if the Rags went all in? If they win a cup, no harm no foul. They get to lift the most coveted trophy in all of hockey. If going all in doesn't work, in 2 or 3 years they will have numerous valuable assets they can trade to start a rebuild. That looks like a win-win to me.

Now, taking a look at Detroit, they didn't go all in. Holland likes twiddling his thumbs, and watching other teams pass us by. While the Rangers went all in, Detroit is simply playoff fodder. The remaining years of D and Z will be filled with 1st and 2nd round exits. When they retire, with no suitable replacements Detroit will go back to being a bubble team or worse. But all hail the playoff streak right guys? Right? That's all Holland gives a damn about anyway. Some arbitrary streak.
If you're always in the playoffs you always have a chance. Sooner or later the stars align and you get to the promised land. This is easily the best team we've had since maybe 09, so I wouldn't say we're just treading water, we've improved by leaps and bounds in the past 2 years. Maybe it's a 1st or 2nd round exit again, maybe we get deeper, but either way we're in a nice position to improve even more for next season and maybe that is when it's time go all-in.

We've won 4 cups and haven't missed the playoffs since NYR last won. So it makes sense for them to be a little more desperate. In 5 years, we'll see what you think about Holland vs Sather.
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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Yandle would have done an excellent job of helping our back end.

How? Does Yandle clear the puck well on the first attempt? Does he block shots? Is he physical? That's the kind of player Detroit needs. They need another Brad Stuart type on the team.
 

detredWINgs

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Jan 1, 2004
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I respect TZE as a poster but his stances are curious to me at times. Jack Johnson would be whipping boy #1 on this board.

Meh. We all have players that we like despite their glaring weaknesses. Most people have at least one or two guys on their list that, for rational reasons or not, think they can be better than they show.
 

8snake

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Aug 3, 2005
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Yeah I am sure the guy with the most Stanley Cups in a management role in the last 30 years doesn't know what he is doing. Wise narrative you're espousing there.

Nash, MSL and his older assets are not bringing a nice return. either. Going four years without a first and several of those without a second either is going to catch up to them. I don't think they are the prohibitive favorites to win either so going all in like this is doing so with a pair of tens.

The Wings have a lot of talent in the system, you seem to disagree but the first waive of it is already starting to push us back up the standings. The future is very bright in Detroit, that isn't how you see it, but some of us do.

The Wings still have say about who makes it out of the east right now. They are a good hockey team, we will see how it goes. They also have what appears to be a very bright decade ahead in terms of talent. On top of a brand new facility to woo free agent pieces here shortly and that probably shouldn't be overlooked.
That's "pie in the sky" thinking. Who knows what our future is? We don't have sure-fire, no doubt talent in the system but we have kids who have shown some things. We have two players who are on their downside and will create a crater up front as they further decline and eventually leavr. I'm neither a glass half full or half empty guy, I'm a realist...and from that perspective I understand that contention is not a given, neither is a "bright future".
 

InjuredChoker

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Dec 25, 2011
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How? Does Yandle clear the puck well on the first attempt? Does he block shots? Is he physical? That's the kind of player Detroit needs. They need another Brad Stuart type on the team.

i strongly disagree that's the type of player we need. we already give up very few shots and goals. offense and transition game is the problem. we don't score a lot of goals 5on5 or generate a lot of shots.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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Nov 8, 2007
11,152
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I know, I said I would like to avoid my irrational love of JMFJ. I was honest about that.

I just like the guy, he absolutely has problems though. Is a lot more physical though and really hasn't played a lot of cheap minutes. I would like to slot him in on the second pairing and he can play both sides. With that said I wouldn't be enamored with paying a lot for him for obvious reasons. But I do like him, he is a guy I root for and a guy who has elevated his game in big tournaments in the past which makes me think his play would go up in the post-season as well. I think it did against the Pens last year and it always has for Team USA.

Fair enough, I can appreciate that.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,315
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I respect TZE as a poster but his stances are curious to me at times. Jack Johnson would be whipping boy #1 on this board.

There's a lot of reasons people like and dislike players. It doesn't have to make sense to everyone.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,315
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i strongly disagree that's the type of player we need. we already give up very few shots and goals. offense and transition game is the problem. we don't score a lot of goals 5on5 or generate a lot of shots.

Totally agree, that's exactly how I see it too.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,152
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Get ready for the Phaneuf train!

The prospect makes me incredibly nervous, not to mention I don't like the guy. Seems like such a goober. But if the deal is Kindl + Weiss + prospect(that isn't one of the big ones), you have to do it. I sure hope they retain salary, if anything happens.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,233
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Phaneuf (1.5M retained) <> Smith + Kindl + 2nd 2015 + 1st 2106

Kronwall - Phaneuf
DeKeyser - Quincey
Ericsson - Marchenko/Ouellet


There we go.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,315
14,811
Phaneuf (1.5M retained) <> Smith + Kindl + 2nd 2015 + 1st 2106

Kronwall - Phaneuf
DeKeyser - Quincey
Ericsson - Marchenko/Ouellet


There we go.

Damn, I actually don't hate that.

Can Phaneuf play RD well??
 

PullHard

Jul 18, 2007
28,430
2,529
So what is everyone's breaking point for the following players:

Zidlicky (mine is 2nd 2015)
Petry (mine is 2nd 2015 + prospect)

I guess we can include Phaneuf too, but harder to pinpoint value due to the possibility of salary retention, etc.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
41,007
11,655
Ft. Myers, FL
There's a lot of reasons people like and dislike players. It doesn't have to make sense to everyone.

For the record Jack Johnson is probably the worst for me here. It isn't backed up by anything substantial other than I like the player. I don't think people should get in line with me here. I actually know it is a completely imperfect argument.

But LA used to be my late game team, before they turned into a juggernaut and I felt guilty in a way for treating them like my second NHL team. I did this because Kopitar and Johnson are two of my five favorite non-wings players in the league.

It can come off as super hypocritical especially with as down as I have been on Yandle, I just like the player. I also think he brings physicality and plays in all situations unlike Yandle with a flexibility to both sides. I usually pride myself in trying to argue objectively the hockey finer points. I will not pretend to do so with Jack Johnson other than to say I am a fan, I hope we could get the best of him on the second pairing. I think he would be a strong post-season performer, but he is a heart player for me and my brain does disagree with that a lot. His points of defense though are not what he has shown, he has disappointed and teased to this point in his career, no denying that.

Maybe it isn't a surprise he is being classified as a glorified version of Smith, a player I am also very stubborn to give up on.
 

sean3250

Registered User
Feb 7, 2015
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To me, NYR is trading for two years of 90/100 performance and then three more of 60/100 performance. You're saying that you'd rather not be 80/100 across all of those (like the Wings), because that's not going all in.

But if you're like Holland and believe playoff success has an awful lot to do with luck, then consistently being a team capable of winning is appealing. Some of these teams go for it right away and then ensure down the road that there will be these years where they won't make the playoffs and have no shot at all. From a 10-year perspective, Holland's plan seems smart. From a 2-3 year perspective, perhaps not.

and I don't think it's that Holland won't trade, it's that he refuses to endanger the 10 year plan in order to bolster that 2-3 year plan. Can he do both? I guess we'll see. From my perspective and the Wings' current performance, it seems like he can. But he'd need to find the right pickup, and he packs his roster too full these days to do much of that.

I believe that at the current junction of Dats and Z's career, Holland needs to go all in. I am not as high on the future as many people here are. Who knows, if D and Z are going to be healthy next year. Who knows if they are going to be elite next year. Luck plays a role in every cup run. I'd rather not chalk up my chances to luck though. That's a BS cop out from Holland.


Yeah I am sure the guy with the most Stanley Cups in a management role in the last 30 years doesn't know what he is doing. Wise narrative you're espousing there.

Nash, MSL and his older assets are not bringing a nice return. either. Going four years without a first and several of those without a second either is going to catch up to them. I don't think they are the prohibitive favorites to win either so going all in like this is doing so with a pair of tens.

The Wings have a lot of talent in the system, you seem to disagree but the first waive of it is already starting to push us back up the standings. The future is very bright in Detroit, that isn't how you see it, but some of us do.

The Wings still have say about who makes it out of the east right now. They are a good hockey team, we will see how it goes. They also have what appears to be a very bright decade ahead in terms of talent. On top of a brand new facility to woo free agent pieces here shortly and that probably shouldn't be overlooked.

Of course Holland knows more than me when it comes to being an NHL GM. I am not naive enough to think otherwise. There comes a time though when Holland either needs to **** or get off the pot. It's been 7 years since we Won a cup. Hopefully Holland isn't living off those past accomplishments. I wouldn't want my GM doing that.

Dats and Z are basically done in 2 years, and I believe that when those two go, so do our Cup chances. Detroit has nice talent, but no suitable D, Z, or Kronwall replacements (maybe Larkin replaces one of D or Z).

My view differs from yours, in that I don't believe Detroit gets a say about who comes out of the East. That title belongs to NYR, TB, or MTL.
 

ap3x

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Jan 31, 2014
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Stockholm
That's "pie in the sky" thinking. Who knows what our future is? We don't have sure-fire, no doubt talent in the system but we have kids who have shown some things.

Sure you don't know. But Rags don't know either if their trades will make them a cup winner anytime soon.
'cause if they don't, their decisions in the past (sacrificing the 1st round picks) will catch up with them.
We instead have a promising pool to rely our hopes on either way.
 
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