OT: Raise the Jolly Rodger: Shipmates starting to report for duty

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WheresRamziAbid

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Again, that doesn't make any sense. Teams don't hold down non-elite prospects out of fear of those guys getting an extra year of arbitration. The best comparable to Jones in recent memory is Contreras, who the Pirates didn't manipulate his service time based on the Super 2 deadline.

Contreras started the year with the Pirates, was sent down from early July to mid August and then was back up for the rest of the year. Contreras had that same perceived upside that Jones has, but the Pirates didn't manipulate his service time to get rid of that 4th arbitration year. That's exactly how they'd handle Jones.

The same thing happened with Brubaker, he's at 4 years of service time exactly right now because they just played him in the MLB for the entirety of the 2020 season.

Contreras:

1. Had already started his clock the year prior, though very limited.

2. Did not break camp with the team, he was called up 4/9 after someone was injured in the opener as he was the only pitcher on the 40 man roster that was healthy.

3. JT Brubaker was nowhere near the prospect Jones is.

Nobody's arguing that Super 2 is a fait acompli but it has to be (especially on your best prospects) a consideration because there are real impactful consequences. Pretending it isnt is flat out silly.
 

Empoleon8771

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Contreras:

1. Had already started his clock the year prior, though very limited.

That has no factor whatsoever. Players don't earn MLB service time in the minors. Contreras having 1 start at the end of 2021 has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Cruz started his service clock at the end of 2021, but that didn't change that he was still in the minors up until June of 2022.

2. Did not break camp with the team, he was called up 4/9 after someone was injured in the opener as he was the only pitcher on the 40 man roster that was healthy.

This does not disprove anything I said regarding them not service time manipulating Contreras based on the Super 2 deadline.

Again, teams flat out do not service time manipulate just good prospects based on Super 2 concerns. At absolute most, they'll sit in the minors for 3 weeks at some point in the year to "work on their defense" or "stay below a pitch limit" or some crap like that, and then they'll be up. That's exactly what they did with Suwinski in 2022, Roansy in 2021 and Reynolds in 2019.

I somewhat understand Super-2 service time manipulating guys like Skenes or Crews, because their earning potential is sky high and that extra year of arbitration may be a massive amount of money. But to suggest doing that with any halfway decent prospect is just insane, and it's something that even cheap teams don't do.

This is owner bootlicking on the most extreme levels, trying to justify keeping any prospect being Super-2 service time manipulated because "even a bad pitcher like Nick Pivetta gets $10 million in his 4th arb year".
 

WheresRamziAbid

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That has no factor whatsoever. Players don't earn MLB service time in the minors. Contreras having 1 start at the end of 2021 has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Cruz started his service clock at the end of 2021, but that didn't change that he was still in the minors up until June of 2022.



This does not disprove anything I said regarding them not service time manipulating Contreras based on the Super 2 deadline.

Again, teams flat out do not service time manipulate just good prospects based on Super 2 concerns. At absolute most, they'll sit in the minors for 3 weeks at some point in the year to "work on their defense" or "stay below a pitch limit" or some crap like that, and then they'll be up. That's exactly what they did with Suwinski in 2022, Roansy in 2021 and Reynolds in 2019.

I somewhat understand Super-2 service time manipulating guys like Skenes or Crews, because their earning potential is sky high and that extra year of arbitration may be a massive amount of money. But to suggest doing that with any halfway decent prospect is just insane, and it's something that even cheap teams don't do.

This is owner bootlicking on the most extreme levels, trying to justify keeping any prospect being Super-2 service time manipulated because "even a bad pitcher like Nick Pivetta gets $10 million in his 4th arb year".

See this bolded above (ill get to the rest later) is the clown shoes bullshit that makes people completely insufferable.

Im not justifying anything. Im telling you how people make decisions.

If you dont believe that Super 2 isnt a part of the decision making process for EVERY prospect your a dumbass. It might not be the most pressing factor, but it certainly IS a factor.

Cruz
Endy
Davis
Hayes

Were stashed until after super two while other guys like

Suwinski
Contreras
Reynolds

Weren't.

But in typical fashion you completely ignore all the examples that go against your opinion and pretend its not a factor.

IT IS A FACTOR whether Jones is called up in July, May or on the opening day roster.

You have to be a complete moron to pretend otherwise.
 

Empoleon8771

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Crazy thought: if you always end up getting "clown shoes bullshit" responses to you, maybe you're the one that invites those responses. Maybe constantly defending the cheapness of this team with saying shit like "are 8 starts this year worth $10 million in 7 years?" is why you get those "you're an owner bootlicker" responses.

Again, prospects of Jones' caliber are not the caliber of prospects that have their Super-2 service time manipulated. That's what I explicitly said, and exactly what the Pirates examples have shown. Guys with 60+ FV and huge earning potential like Cruz, Davis and Hayes are the ones who get Super-2 service time manipulated, because their extra year of arbitration may legitimately be worth $20+ million. Not even cheap as shit teams like the Pirates service time manipulate Jones caliber prospects based on the Super-2 deadline, especially not pitchers because pitching are so volatile to begin with. Michael Soroka is a great example of this.

The Pirates Super-2 service time manipulating Jones would just be another example of how much of a joke the team is and how cheap Nutting is. "Maybe they won't have to pay him an extra $10 million in 7 years" is not a justification for it. I get it fully with Skenes, especially considering he needs to get adjusted to pitch on a 5 day schedule in the professionals. But Jones? It would be a flat out joke.
 

sovietsanta87

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I'm excited about Skenes, but still regretful about this.

He was a better prospect than Crews but I didn't foresee this ascent this quickly. Could be next Julio or Trout.
He doesn’t have the defensive ability of those two guys. I wouldn’t have been mad if we drafted Langford because he’s an instant 3-4 hitter, the potential of a guy like skenes can win you a World Series.
 

Empoleon8771

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One more comment regarding Jones: one aspect I haven't mentioned with him is how the Pirates operate. Even if Jones ends up a top of the rotation starter that is due $15 million in his ARB-4 year, I'd argue it's pretty unlikely that the Pirates would even be the team paying that. They're far more likely to trade him before his ARB-3 or ARB-4 year, just like they did with Cole and Taillon. Even if the Pirates are good at that point, I'd still bet on them trading him as more likely. Even good teams like the Rays are trading high cost pitchers like Glasnow.

So the "8 starts doesn't seem worth $10-$20 million" argument is even weaker with that, because I think we all know damn well that it wouldn't be Bob Nutting paying that money anyway.



Think that means Triolo is the 2B and Williams is the utility INF. Although Gonzales hasn't been sent down yet and has had a strong spring, so maybe he's still in play as well.
 
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WheresRamziAbid

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Crazy thought: if you always end up getting "clown shoes bullshit" responses to you, maybe you're the one that invites those responses. Maybe constantly defending the cheapness of this team with saying shit like "are 8 starts this year worth $10 million in 7 years?" is why you get those "you're an owner bootlicker" responses.

Again, prospects of Jones' caliber are not the caliber of prospects that have their Super-2 service time manipulated. That's what I explicitly said, and exactly what the Pirates examples have shown. Guys with 60+ FV and huge earning potential like Cruz, Davis and Hayes are the ones who get Super-2 service time manipulated, because their extra year of arbitration may legitimately be worth $20+ million. Not even cheap as shit teams like the Pirates service time manipulate Jones caliber prospects based on the Super-2 deadline, especially not pitchers because pitching are so volatile to begin with. Michael Soroka is a great example of this.

The Pirates Super-2 service time manipulating Jones would just be another example of how much of a joke the team is and how cheap Nutting is. "Maybe they won't have to pay him an extra $10 million in 7 years" is not a justification for it. I get it fully with Skenes, especially considering he needs to get adjusted to pitch on a 5 day schedule in the professionals. But Jones? It would be a flat out joke.
1. Nobodys defending anything. Your so far up your own ass you cant tell the difference between someone saying that X will be a factor and X should be a factor.

2. Of course prospect of Jones caliber have super 2 maipulation. They dont ALWAYS get held back but it undoubtably part of the calculation.

If you legitimately good enough based on talent to make the opening day roster, your good enough for Super 2 to be in the discussion.

3. Wheter its a joke or not it irrelevant. At no point has OUR conversation has it been about what should happen. You not being able to separate the two is as mind boggling as it is frustrating.
 

WheresRamziAbid

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Looks like peguero is in fact gonna start in AAA.

Hopefully Akila is there to be a warm body only.

If he gets more than a start per week that sucks
 

td_ice

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March 22: Pirates option INF Liover Peguero, LHP Jose Hernandez to Triple-A Indianapolis
Peguero was one of the main contenders for the Pirates' second base job coming into Spring Training and slashed .269/.345/.423 with a homer over 29 plate appearances. Him being optioned clears the path for Jared Triolo to be the team's second baseman, considering Nick Gonzales was optioned Thursday and Ji Hwan Bae is still returning from a hip flexor.
Hernandez recorded a 4.97 ERA over 50 appearances as a Rule 5-pick rookie last season. Since he satisfied the requirements of being on the roster all year, he lost his Rule 5 status and can be optioned. In six innings this spring, the reliever allowed one run and six walks while striking out nine.
 

ChaosAgent

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He doesn’t have the defensive ability of those two guys. I wouldn’t have been mad if we drafted Langford because he’s an instant 3-4 hitter, the potential of a guy like skenes can win you a World Series.

I think both are great prospects, but hitters are safer. Skenes had higher upside at the time of the draft but Langford's bat could be a 1.000+ OPS type of thing.

If Skenes is better than Cole was here, no complaints from me. He has a great chance to be better.
 

sovietsanta87

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I think both are great prospects, but hitters are safer. Skenes had higher upside at the time of the draft but Langford's bat could be a 1.000+ OPS type of thing.

If Skenes is better than Cole was here, no complaints from me. He has a great chance to be better.
If he’s not better than Cole it’ll be a huge disappointment.
 
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Empoleon8771

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March 22: Pirates option INF Liover Peguero, LHP Jose Hernandez to Triple-A Indianapolis
Peguero was one of the main contenders for the Pirates' second base job coming into Spring Training and slashed .269/.345/.423 with a homer over 29 plate appearances. Him being optioned clears the path for Jared Triolo to be the team's second baseman, considering Nick Gonzales was optioned Thursday and Ji Hwan Bae is still returning from a hip flexor.
Hernandez recorded a 4.97 ERA over 50 appearances as a Rule 5-pick rookie last season. Since he satisfied the requirements of being on the roster all year, he lost his Rule 5 status and can be optioned. In six innings this spring, the reliever allowed one run and six walks while striking out nine.

Was Gonzales optioned? I didn't realize that.

But yeah, it makes perfect sense what they're setting up to run with. Triolo is their everyday 2B and Cruz is their everyday SS, while Williams is just a defensive sub or bench player. I was going to ask about whether they planned on also playing Williams at 3B some to have him as a 2B/3B/SS replacement, but I realized that any game where Hayes isn't playing 3B is a game that Triolo is overwhelmingly likely playing 3B. I figure any rest games for Hayes will involve Triolo playing at 3rd and Williams subbing in at 2nd, rather than Williams playing 3rd.
 

td_ice

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Was Gonzales optioned? I didn't realize that.

But yeah, it makes perfect sense what they're setting up to run with. Triolo is their everyday 2B and Cruz is their everyday SS, while Williams is just a defensive sub or bench player. I was going to ask about whether they planned on also playing Williams at 3B some to have him as a 2B/3B/SS replacement, but I realized that any game where Hayes isn't playing 3B is a game that Triolo is overwhelmingly likely playing 3B. I figure any rest games for Hayes will involve Triolo playing at 3rd and Williams subbing in at 2nd, rather than Williams playing 3rd.
Yes.

March 21: Pirates option Nick Gonzales, Joshua Palacios
The Pirates continued to trim their Spring Training roster ahead of Opening Day, optioning Gonzales and Palacios.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Damn, that's all?? That's disappointing to hear. As you follow things a lot more closely than I do.


I have us at 82-80.


(Last year I had us at 72. That was pretty close. Hoping they outperform my take again this year.)

Maybe I'm being way too optimistic.

EDIT: OK, I read that again. That was your floor, gotcha. So we definitely see the range similar.

Look forward to your 10 game segments again this season.
Haha thanks, I will see if I can try to get in the habit of doing them again. It's a fun exercise.

And yeah, I think 82-80 is a reasonable ballpark. 72-90 would be closer to the worst case scenario and I think on the verge of what should get some people fired even if I don't think that would happen.

When I look at the division, I just see a lot of ambiguity. Nobody hugely stands out. The Cardinals have to rebound in some way, but their pitching still leaves a lot to be desired. The Brewers got worse. The Cubs basically held serve by bringing Bellinger back and I think Imanaga will be good, but it's not a huge impact addition and if anything it's a swap/upgrade from Stroman. The Reds are extremely young just like us and could go in lots of different directions.

One place where the Pirates might have some advantage is that this is a team which has mostly been together for a while and seems to have a strong bond. I don't think that overcomes everything, but I think the major thing this team needs to up its floor is an ability to avoid the tailspins that have happened for weeks at a time in previous seasons.

That's ultimately why the cheapness with the pitching is so frustrating, because the bottom falling out of the pitching is the easiest way for that kind of 10 or 15-game tailspin killshot to pop up. I still don't quite know what to expect from the staff, especially Gonzales who it feels like a lot is subtly riding on. Keller and Perez should be solid enough, the former more so, and maybe you will get some occasional surprises from the #4 and #5 spots especially if one of them is Jones in short order. Gonzales can be effective, but he could be a spot where they get almost nothing, which I think would set them behind the 8-ball in terms of the best positioning of themselves for when the summer really gets underway.


Speaking of Jones, seems like the weather cost him this game. It's sort of unclear what to expect now, since there are only three games left in ST. Anderson has apparently triggered an opt out which would suggest he won't make the team, but that could be a nothing story with many other rotation possibles and Roansy in the bullpen.

Anderson was scheduled to pitch Saturday, so maybe Jones will get bumped with one last showcase opportunity. I have to think it won't matter for him, as there are a few other ways to sort it out while keeping him in AAA. My guess right now is that either Falter will make it in what is made clear is basically a holding pattern for one of Lauer or German, or perhaps if we've decided to move on from Falter, we'll go Priester to start.

I hope it's Jones if only because I think some early season momentum could be huge for positioning the team to be in the hunt when Skenes gets the call. Even if it's just half a dozen games where teams have little book on Jones, he's earned it and it would be a good boost to take.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Jones looks good again, though unfortunately it's against a lineup of prospects by the Red Sox. He does have three walks, but to reiterate the obvious, I don't see how you watch him and conclude he isn't clearly one of the best starters to break camp.
 

Empoleon8771

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This is obviously a discussion for the future, but I’m a bit curious what happens once Endy is back if Davis can put up a 3+ WAR season as a catcher this year while playing decent (50 grade or so) defense at C. Do you find a new spot for him? Or does Endy become more of a backup C and utility infielder while Davis is the starting C?

On Jones, the only way I can see him not starting the year with the Pirates is if they want to get those 3 weeks of him in the minors out of the way to start the year. If they do that, I’d expect Priester to be the #5 to start. Otherwise, I can’t see any way that Jones isn’t in the rotation by May.
 

ChaosAgent

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This is obviously a discussion for the future, but I’m a bit curious what happens once Endy is back if Davis can put up a 3+ WAR season as a catcher this year while playing decent (50 grade or so) defense at C. Do you find a new spot for him? Or does Endy become more of a backup C and utility infielder while Davis is the starting C?

I think in that case you run them both at catcher, with Davis as the primary DH otherwise.
McCutchen very likely retires after this year.

You could also trade Endy, although that is risky.
 
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Empoleon8771

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This was supposed to be their lineup yesterday, but it changed a bit for today with Reynolds out and Joe in. Regardless, I'm pretty sure this is going to be their opening day lineup, with Joe, Olivares, Williams and Delay as the bench guys.

In terms of pitchers, I believe they still have 17 pitchers left at camp vying for a MLB spot. I think the list is:

-Active roster SP: Keller, Perez, Gonzales, Ortiz and Priester
-Active roster RP: Bednar, Borucki, Chapman, Contreras, Falter, Fleming, Holderman and Mlodzinski
-Non-roster SP: Jones
-Non-roster RP: Stratton, Peralta and Honeywell Jr

Lauer and German are additional non-roster SPs in camp, but I don't believe they're really vying for a MLB spot right now due to being signed so late. It wouldn't surprise me that much to see that their 13 pitchers are just the 13 active roster pitchers, but I'd hope they wouldn't be so lazy to do that.

Although looking at the Pirates roster, I don't believe Lauer is at the major league camp anymore. I can't find anything about him pitching on Twitter beyond this from a week ago:

 

MrBrightside

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This was supposed to be their lineup yesterday, but it changed a bit for today with Reynolds out and Joe in. Regardless, I'm pretty sure this is going to be their opening day lineup, with Joe, Olivares, Williams and Delay as the bench guys.

In terms of pitchers, I believe they still have 17 pitchers left at camp vying for a MLB spot. I think the list is:

-Active roster SP: Keller, Perez, Gonzales, Ortiz and Priester
-Active roster RP: Bednar, Borucki, Chapman, Contreras, Falter, Fleming, Holderman and Mlodzinski
-Non-roster SP: Jones
-Non-roster RP: Stratton, Peralta and Honeywell Jr

Lauer and German are additional non-roster SPs in camp, but I don't believe they're really vying for a MLB spot right now due to being signed so late. It wouldn't surprise me that much to see that their 13 pitchers are just the 13 active roster pitchers, but I'd hope they wouldn't be so lazy to do that.

Although looking at the Pirates roster, I don't believe Lauer is at the major league camp anymore. I can't find anything about him pitching on Twitter beyond this from a week ago:


Lauer was assigned to Indy yesterday. ChaosAgent sitting shiva.
 

sovietsanta87

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This is obviously a discussion for the future, but I’m a bit curious what happens once Endy is back if Davis can put up a 3+ WAR season as a catcher this year while playing decent (50 grade or so) defense at C. Do you find a new spot for him? Or does Endy become more of a backup C and utility infielder while Davis is the starting C?

On Jones, the only way I can see him not starting the year with the Pirates is if they want to get those 3 weeks of him in the minors out of the way to start the year. If they do that, I’d expect Priester to be the #5 to start. Otherwise, I can’t see any way that Jones isn’t in the rotation by May.
Depends on whether or not endy hits when he comes back. If Davis establishes himself as the catcher, and endy hits, I think you put him at 1B/RF/DH depending what the rest of the roster looks like
 
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ChaosAgent

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Depends on whether or not endy hits when he comes back. If Davis establishes himself as the catcher, and endy hits, I think you put him at 1B/RF/DH depending what the rest of the roster looks like

I agree with this. Davis' glove is certainly a concern, but Endy's bat was a huge disappointment in 2023. At the ML level I saw so much soft contact; a far cry from the way he finished 2022 in Altoona. If Endy's bat doesn't tick upwards when he returns he'll pretty much only be viable at catcher.
 
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