I think you have me confused with someone else. I said they were connected, one precedes the other, however the corporate monies are absolutely required given the current revenue gap and revenue distribution. Please remind where I said these markets could survive without the corporate dollars?
Quebec City getting a franchise ?
- Thread starter tiredman
- Start date
I think you have me confused with someone else. I said they were connected, one precedes the other, however the corporate monies are absolutely required given the current revenue gap and revenue distribution. Please remind where I said these markets could survive without the corporate dollars?
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
I'd be interested to know how "corporate support" is defined especially in the context of a, say, 60% corporate vs. 40% individual ticket holders. If by corporate ticket holder we include anyone that purchases tickets as an entertainment expense for a business that could include a lot of smaller business owners and professionals.
The other comment I would add about a market like Quebec City, it could well receive a lot of non-local corporate support in the form of naming rights, signage, advertising revenue, etc., from national, international or Quebec corporations. This is due in part to the potential TV market. RDS averaged something around 600,000 viewers for the Habs regular season games in the Quebec provincial DMA. If a Quebec team could get a fraction of that (say 1/4 or 1/3rd) on a network like RDS it could have one of the league's largest regional television audiences.
GHOST
The other comment I would add about a market like Quebec City, it could well receive a lot of non-local corporate support in the form of naming rights, signage, advertising revenue, etc., from national, international or Quebec corporations. This is due in part to the potential TV market. RDS averaged something around 600,000 viewers for the Habs regular season games in the Quebec provincial DMA. If a Quebec team could get a fraction of that (say 1/4 or 1/3rd) on a network like RDS it could have one of the league's largest regional television audiences.
GHOST
Take a look at the Buffalo and Nashville markets - that should give you a pretty good ide of what sort of corporate market is needed.
You really think Quebec sponsors would sign on with both the Habs and a Quebec franchise??? The economy in Quebec City is not all that robust compared to Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary.
You first have to have a sizeable enough corporate pool to market in and the point is markets like Buffalo and potential sites like Quebec City and Winnipeg simply do not have this critical mass.
Can I call you Wettie since my pal GC gets away with that.
Wettie...you have the wrong suspect. My response in explaining the dependency on general fan interest was aimed at a poster who said it was completely irrelevant. Yes, you do need a sizable corporate base. You first need a sizable population that lives off/supports that sizable corporate base. Often, the greater the population the greater the likelihood you'll find a corporate base commensurate in size to that population. I've made the argument you're making several times in my many incarnations in places I choose to argue-- even using the critical mass term. So really, I know where you're coming from with that one.
Yet you cannot separate the two. The corporate base of any community will not buy into something - and keep buying - if there is no interest in the general community. In a sense, they are part of that same community.
What many of the posters here choose to ignore however, is the emotional side to this argument. The numbers as far as income, number of companies, population, arena size... blah, blah, blah... can all be present as well and yes, a sport can still fail. Amazing as that may sound to some of us number crunchers, it can happen. It isn't always poor management, where poor management is the mis-use of assets. I asked question earlier. Isn't there an emotional element to buying any nonessential good? What I describe above as a general interest from public and its corporate sector is also based on something psychological. That's the bigger nut to crack here in deciding who can succeed than simply adding up some numbers in the appropriate columns.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
Good post Fugu. I agree with your point on corporate support being tied to underlying community support (especially in the long-term) and your comment on non-essential goods.
For some reason, Canadian gov'ts and the Canadians as a whole (even many NHL fans) are very adverse to supporting NHL teams via public subsidies, tax-funded arenas, etc. I can understand the sentiment, but it really doesn't make sense to me given the number of hockey fans in Canada, the importance of the game to many Canadians, and the number of other non-essential projects the Gov't already spends tax payers dollars on. An example from Winnipeg: after letting the Jets go, the Winnipeg, Manitoba and Canadian gov'ts spent 100s of millions to host the PanAm Games, a one-off two week event. Ask Manitobans what they would have preferred the NHL Jets or the PanAm Games? If there was a choice, I have no doubt what they would choose. More recently, the Feds and Provincial gov'ts are supporting an initiative to build the first "national museum" in Winnipeg. It will be partially funded by private donations but the bulk of money will come from the public sector. The cost for the museum building is estimated at $300 million and the annual operating cost will be $20million. There is no ROI from this project other than psychological and there is no chance of it ever being profitable. The tens of millions of dollars in private donations will benefit the business and individuals only as a tax deduction and personal satisfaction of being involved in a successful community project. The point is not all investments by gov'ts or the very wealthy are done purely for ROI in the economic sense; rather, they are sometimes done for as you said psychological reasons or as I would say civic pride, betterment of community, etc.
In Quebec City and Winnipeg some of the above-type motivations may factor in to returning NHL hockey to those cities, from both the local and national business community (ownership and pledged corporate support) and from different levels of gov't (tax breaks, subsidies for arenas, etc.) Obviously, economic factors such as a salary cap, the exchange rate and availability and price of a franchise must also be factored in
GHOST
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
The two points I was getting at I think are these:
1) If corporate support as in ticket sales is defined as not only large corporations but also the groups or individuals that have the opportunity to write-off NHL tickets as a business entertainment expense, then who is to say whether a city like Quebec City has less potential "corporate support" than a city with a much larger population and much larger corporate base, but a fraction of the interest in hockey. There are a lot of small doctors'/lawyers'/dentists'/etc offices as well as a huge number of small business proprietors that may utilize various business entities and tax write-offs to purchase NHL tickets. Canadian CAs please feel free to jump in here.
2) In a market like Quebec City it may be possible to gain corporate support in the form of advertising, naming rights, signage, etc., from international, national or non-locally based businesses. RBC Center in Raleigh or TD BankNorth Center in Boston come to mind as Canadian based banks that have invested 10s of millions in USA-based NHL teams/arenas via naming rights deals. GM Place in Vancouver is another example. Then there are companies such as Molsons, McDonalds, Tim Hortons, Nissan, etc., that may see the advantage of Quebec City's likely top rated regional TV audience when considering where to invest in NHL in-arena signage that can be viewed on TV or in TV advertisements on regional broadcasts.
GHOST
SOLR
Registered User
Quebec is a sub climate, corporations dont have the choice to give the same money to both teams. It was like that in 1980 it will be like that in 200X.
Wrong !!!
RBC is in Raleigh because their US HQs is in Raleigh. The local regional Bank is called RBC Centura but also has life insurance divisions and other divisions in the US with offices all over the US, again, based out of Raleigh. In fact, RBC Centura is building a 32 story building in DT Raleigh. The US division is one of the most profitable divisions for RBC and helps lifts their profits while the rest of the company has fumbled in Canada lately. So I would not say they are there to hit the Canadian market, or they have no local business. They are there to build the local market through their local bank.
http://www.rbccentura.com/
Also, TD Banknorth is a US based bank.
http://www.tdbanknorth.com/bank/about_us.html
So sorry, another fallacy passed as a truth.
exactly, thats the point of naming rights and advertising - to sell
not some goodwill mission to spread the joy of canada around
not some goodwill mission to spread the joy of canada around
YOU might want to research that a bit more Mo, Banknorth was bought & merged w/ Toronto Dominion aka TD because at the time of that merger there was already a Bank of America Center (based in Charlotte) Bank of America nor Toronto Dominion had no presence in New England up until then until FleetBoston WAS BOUGHT out hence the previous name on Causeway Street (FleetCenter) .
TD Bank North and TD BankNorth N.A. are subsidiaries of TD BankNorth Financial Group(TDBNKFG, which was privatized as of April 20th, 2007.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
I think you are attacking a straw man. I am not saying that TD or RBC or GM or any other corporate sponsor has no connection to any particular location. The fact is that TD and RBC are Canadian banks, GM is a USA company, and they have a say on what their foreign subsidiaries do. They have all chosen to sponsor teams in certain markets. Similarly, a USA brand like Pepsi can sponsor the arena in Quebec (which it now does if I'm not mistaken).
GHOST
TD is Toronto Dominion Bank Of Canada
RBC is Royal Bank of Canada
Royal Bank's annual profit jumps 40% to record $4.7B
The Royal Bank of Canada reported record net income of $4.7 billion for the year, up 40 per cent from 2005. That's the highest annual profit any Canadian bank has ever reported.
RBC expects to do even better next year, particularly in Canada.
In his commentary, Nixon told shareholders he expects "a robust Canadian economy with continued strong consumer spending and solid business investment" for the coming year.
But RBC expects to "continue to benefit from relatively favourable equity markets, a relatively stable interest rate environment and strong domestic fiscal conditions."
The United States, however, is a different story. It is expected to slow moderately, due to "slightly weaker growth in consumer spending and a cooling housing market."
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2006/11/30/rbc.html
Poignant Discussion*
I tell it like it is
Interesting article about Quebec City's chances with the NHL
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2007/12/28/4743482-cp.html
"A poll published in the fall showed barely half of Quebec City residents wanted the return of an NHL team."
I think this should be a reality check for the many who think the NHL will ever return to Quebec City
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2007/12/28/4743482-cp.html
"A poll published in the fall showed barely half of Quebec City residents wanted the return of an NHL team."
I think this should be a reality check for the many who think the NHL will ever return to Quebec City
I live in Quebec city... and I was really surprised when I saw the results of that survey...
However, I don't think it shows the reality.
For instance, one week before the new mayor was elected in early december, he was far from a winning the elections according to these surveys... he was even 20% below another candidate... and he finally won the elections with ~60%.
I'm sure at least 75-80% would be FOR a team coming back in quebec. But many don't believe in it.. that's why I'm sure it has biased the results.
Also, just a little update about the NHL coming in Quebec... Marcel Aubut confirmed it's interest into bringing back another team in quebec. Also, the new mayor keeps claiming that if a serious group presents an offer for bringing a team here, he would build a new arena...
I don't want to see any teams move. That would be unfair. I would love to see the NHL expand but only if its to Hartford, Quebec, Cleveland, Winnipig and maybe Seattle/Houston/Hamilton.
Ted Hoffman
The other Rick Zombo
- Dec 15, 2002
- 29,258
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Hartford - must have a new arena. Can't recall if there's actually one in the works - if there is, I'm fairly sure UConn would be the primary tenant.
Quebec - must have a new arena; conceptual plans for one exists, and that's it.
Cleveland - has virtually no interest in the NHL.
Winnipeg - we've discussed this here 247,003 times.
Seattle - must have a new arena; the current one is worse for hockey than America West Arena was. More interest in the NHL than Cleveland has ... which isn't saying much.
Houston - best choice, but the "put a team in Canada first" crowd would leap from rooftops if it happened.
Hamilton - we've discussed this here 247,003 times.
If the NHL expands why dont they just offer a chance for two teams from the AHL to come aboard the NHL. That way they have a stadium and fan base already and a little bit of history also. I dont think the AHL will like it but it would be interesting.
Personally, no bias against Quebec City or Hamilton getting a team, but I don't won't there to be any more teams in the East until there's expansion or a relocation to the West. The geographical distribution of the Conferences is too out of wack as it is. Yes, there's the obvious, more population in the East, but as long as the League keeps the East-West Conference format then there should at least be some degree of balance in the distribution of teams within the two Conferences.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Why does there need to be balanced geographical distribution? If conferences should be balanced by anything, it's population. Population = fans and money.
Fine, then distribute the Conferences differently, not based on an East-West division. In truth, that's probably the best way to go anyway, because there will never be a very equitable distribution of teams based on an East-West format.
Sotnos
Registered User
Not seeing the problem there.
Judging from the results, I wouldn't be surprised if they put something in there about that, or maybe it was implied that's what it would take? Maybe the younger folks have all moved on with their allegiances & really aren't interested.
John Belushi
Registered Boozer
Talk about bias. I thought you were a fairly objective poster, but I guess I was wrong. Aside from being the largest city in NA without an NHL team, there is no reason a team should be in Houston. The Aeros don't even draw that well with the solid team they have.
