Prime Jonathan Toews or Current Auston Matthews

Prime Jonathan Toews or Current Auston Matthews


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LeafsNation75

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Jan 15, 2010
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I meant in winner-take-all games, which would be a game 7. I mentioned game 5 because it was basically a game 7 between the Jackets and the Leafs. The series was a best of 5, so the fifth game is the winner-take-all game.
That is correct for 2020, although in a normal year Game 5 would never have been a winner take all. However it's still wrong how you worded it because in three previous Game 5's Matthews had 2 goals and 1 assist between 2017-2019.
 

Varan

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Nov 27, 2016
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That is correct for 2020, although in a normal year Game 5 would never have been a winner take all. However it's still wrong how you worded it because in three previous Game 5's Matthews had 2 goals and 1 assist between 2017-2019.
It could be a best of 3 and the answer would still be the same. Whether it's game 3/5/7, the final game is the winner-take-all game.

My main point is the final game of the series, he hasn't done anything in any of them.
 

LeafsNation75

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It could be a best of 3 and the answer would still be the same. Whether it's game 3/5/7, the final game is the winner-take-all game.

My main point is the final game of the series, he hasn't done anything in any of them.
Like I said before yes it's true that Matthews has not scored any goals or assists in winner take all games for Toronto.

However you can not blame Matthews when you look at his overall playoff stats of 19 points in 25 games as the main reason Toronto was eliminated in 2018, 2019, and 2020 during those two Game 7's and Game 5.

So when they are shutout like they were in Game 5 this year, the whole team deserves to be blamed and not one single player.
 

Varan

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I forgot to mention this.

I know you were only referring to previous Leafs series that went the distance. However in Game 6 against Washington in 2017 when Toronto was down 3-2 and facing elimination, in the 3rd period when the score was still 0-0, Matthews scored the first goal of that game and giving Toronto a 1-0 lead before they ended up losing 2-1 in overtime.
Kudos to him. I remember that game vividly. However, they were an extremely inexperienced group facing the President's Trophy winner. The fact that the series went 6 games is a testament to how great the Leafs played.
Plus in the 2017 playoffs Matthews had 5 points in 6 games.

2018 Was his only disappointing playoffs when he had 2 points in 7 games.

2019 He had 6 points in 7 games.

2020 Despite him not scoring any points in Game 5 against Columbus, Matthews had 6 points in 5 games.

So in his playoff career he has 19 points in 25 games played.
My main point was his performance in winner-take-all games. Across the board he's been solid.
That's why it's hard to put 100% of the blame on him for the Maple Leafs not winning any of those series, because Matthews hasn't been a reason why they lost. I mean why not blame John Tavares for hitting the post in Game 5 when they were losing 1-0, because if he scores and ties the game 1-1 who knows what happens. So basically my point is everyone of the Maple Leafs players deserves the blame for them getting shutout and not only Matthews.
No one is putting all the blame on Matthews. It is a collective team issue that they keep folding. However, Leaf fans continuously praise and hype up Matthews as if he is one of the best players in the league and is arguably the best goal-scorer in the league. Well then why hasn't he shown up when it counts? If he is the player you say he is (the great goal-scorer and offensive talent that your fan base hype him up to be), and he is the best player on the team, then why doesn't he have anything to show for it when it matters most?

You said why not blame JT, well why not blame Matthews for not scoring at all in game 7s? I am willing to bet that had he scored in any of their game 7s, the Leafs advance at least once.
Hell if it wasn't for Matthews scoring the overtime winning goal in Game 4 there would have never been a Game 5 to be played.
Just because you push it further, doesn't mean you can sit back. You still have work to do.
 
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Varan

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Like I said before yes it's true that Matthews has not scored any goals or assists in winner take all games for Toronto.

However you can not blame Matthews when you look at his overall playoff stats of 19 points in 25 games as the main reason Toronto was eliminated in 2018, 2019, and 2020 during those two Game 7's and Game 5.

So when they are shutout like they were in Game 5 this year, the whole team deserves to be blamed and not one single player.
If he scored in any of the games, do you think that the Leafs don't advance at least once? It's a team game yes, but when your best player repeatedly doesn't show up when you need him the most, as the leader and best player of the team, he should shoulder lots of blame.

What good is all that talent if it doesn't deliver?
 
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LeafsNation75

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You're right, he would have went pointless in another elimination game and they would have been eliminated even earlier. Just because you push it further, doesn't mean you can sit back. You still have work to do.
Even if Toronto had lost Game 4 in overtime and were eliminated, Matthews had the primary assists on John Tavares goal that made it 3-2 and Zach Hyman's goal that tied the game 3-3.



Toronto Maple Leafs at Columbus Blue Jackets Box Score — August 7, 2020 | Hockey-Reference.com
 

LeafsNation75

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If he scored in any of the games, do you think that the Leafs don't advance at least once? It's a team game yes, but when your best player repeatedly doesn't show up when you need him the most, as the leader and best player of the team, he should shoulder lots of blame.

What good is all that talent if it doesn't deliver?
Maybe if Mike Babcock had played Matthews over 20:00 of ice time he would have had scored in those games.

Game 7 in 2018 he plays a total of 18:06 total ice time.

Game 7 in 2019 he plays a total of 18:48 total ice time.

Even though it sucked not seeing Toronto advance past Columbus and getting shutout, at least Sheldon Keefe played him a total of 22:12 in Game 5.
 

Varan

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Maybe if Mike Babcock had played Matthews over 20:00 of ice time he would have had scored in those games.

Game 7 in 2018 he plays a total of 18:06 total ice time.

Game 7 in 2019 he plays a total of 18:48 total ice time.

Even though it sucked not seeing Toronto advance past Columbus and getting shutout, at least Sheldon Keefe played him a total of 22:12 in Game 5.
More ice time =/= more production

So you're telling me that in 57:06 total minutes of ice time across all of his winner-take-all games, he hasn't scored a point? I thought his P/60 stats were out of this world. I thought he was such an elite scorer that he didn't need more ice-time because he already does so much with so less?

That's what I've been told on HF.
 

LeafsNation75

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More ice time =/= more production

So you're telling me that in 57:06 total minutes of ice time across all of his winner-take-all games, he hasn't scored a point? I thought his P/60 stats were out of this world. I thought he was such an elite scorer that he didn't need more ice-time because he already does so much with so less?

That's what I've been told on HF.
I'm not the Maple Leafs fan on here who always mentions Matthews P/60 stats and how it makes him better than some other players. I'm just posting what his ice time in those games were and nothing more.
 
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Varan

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I'm not the Maple Leafs fan on here who always mentions Matthews P/60 stats and how it makes him better than some other players. I'm just posting what his ice time in those games were and nothing more.
That's fair, however the point still stands.

In (basically) one entire game's worth of ice-time, he has yet to record a single point and is a -3 overall.
 

LeafsNation75

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That's fair, however the point still stands.

In (basically) one entire game's worth of ice-time, he has yet to record a single point and is a -3 overall.
Like I said before it was frustrating to see Matthews play a total of 18:48 against Boston in Game 7 during their 2019 playoff series, because going into the 3rd period they were only losing by a score of 2-1. I know the Bruins scored at the 2:40 mark to extend their lead to 3-1. However that was no excuse for Babcock not to play Matthews more that night. It wasn't until the Bruins made it 4-1 with their empty net goal at the 17:26 mark that put the game out of reach. That type of coaching decision by Babcock should have got him fired the next day and Kyle Dubas wanted to do that, however Brendan Shanahan thought he should have stayed on. Although that's a decision Shanahan later admitted was a mistake.
 

Varan

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Like I said before it was frustrating to see Matthews play a total of 18:48 against Boston in Game 7 during their 2019 playoff series, because going into the 3rd period they were only losing by a score of 2-1. I know the Bruins scored at the 2:40 mark to extend their lead to 3-1. However that was no excuse for Babcock not to play Matthews more that night. It wasn't until the Bruins made it 4-1 with their empty net goal at the 17:26 mark that put the game out of reach. That type of coaching decision by Babcock should have got him fired the next day and Kyle Dubas wanted to do that, however Brendan Shanahan thought he should have stayed on. However that's a decision Shanahan later admitted was a mistake.
Babcock mismanaged his players no question, but that doesn't excuse the rest of the time he is on the ice. He can still score can't he?

Does he always HAVE to have extra time to score? That is quite a blow the the /60 stats folks nonsensically throw out here.

I think I just debunked the /60 stats y'all. Turns out (a) Matthews isn't as great as his stats make him out to be, and (b) /60 DEFINITELY need context.
 
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LeafsNation75

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Babcock mismanaged his players no question, but that doesn't excuse the rest of the time he is on the ice. He can still score can't he?

Does he always HAVE to have extra time to score? That is quite a blow the the /60 stats folks nonsensically throw out here
Matthews has proven to be one of the best goal scoring forwards since his rookie season. He's finished T-2 with 40 goals as a rookie and this past season he was 3rd in goals with 47. With stats like that him winning at least one if not multiple Rocket Richard Trophy's should eventually happen. Since he finished 1 goal behind Ovechkin and Pastrnak this past season, if all 82 games were played and he remained healthy, he could have very easily won it this year.

He also had 4 goals in the 2017 playoffs, 1 goal in the 2018 playoffs, 5 goals in the 2019 playoffs, and 2 goals in the 2020 playoffs if you include the play-in round as being part of it, since the NHL counts them as playoff stats. So the next time Toronto is playing an elimination game I hope to see Matthews on the score sheet.

Finally I will repeat that I have never used P/60 when talking about Matthews stats and honestly I have never took the time to learn how it works. So I can not respond to that even if I wanted to.
 

Varan

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Matthews has proven to be one of the best goal scoring forwards since his rookie season. He's finished T-2 with 40 goals as a rookie and this past season he was 3rd in goals with 47. With stats like that him winning at least one if not multiple Rocket Richard Trophy's should eventually happen.
What does any of this have to do with (a) his TOI in the playoffs, (b) his inability to score in crucial games in the playoffs, and (c) Babcock?
He also had 4 goals in the 2017 playoffs, 1 goal in the 2018 playoffs, 5 goals in the 2019 playoffs, and 2 goals in the 2020 playoffs if you include the play-in round as being part of it, since the NHL counts them as playoff stats. So the next time Toronto is playing an elimination game I hope to see Matthews on the score sheet.
Yes, they do count them (they shouldn't though but whatever). However, what does that have to do with our discussion?
Finally I will repeat that I have never used P/60 when talking about Matthews stats and honestly I have never took the time to learn how it works. So I can not respond to that even if I wanted to.
You don't have to, it's of no use. However, the people that do religiously use it, I hope they see my post.
 

LeafsNation75

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What does any of this have to do with (a) his TOI in the playoffs, (b) his inability to score in crucial games in the playoffs, and (c) Babcock?
I personally think Matthews has been unlucky not to have scored any goals in those deciding Game 7's and Game 5.

If he had never scored those 4 goals in the 2017, 1 goal in 2018, 5 goals in 2019, and 2 goals in 2020, you would have more of a case to say he doesn't show up in the playoffs.
 

Varan

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I personally think Matthews has been unlucky not to have scored any goals in those deciding Game 7's and Game 5.

If he had never scored those 4 goals in the 2017, 1 goal in 2018, 5 goals in 2019, and 2 goals in 2020, you would have more of a case to say he doesn't show up in the playoffs.
I literally said that he doesn't show up in the crucial games. His stats are fine.
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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So Toews can’t have unreasonable expectation placed on him, but fans can make him out to be the best player to ever lace up skates?

I guess you'll have to take up that argument up with someone who has actually said it. Good luck finding them.

Ironically taking up this argument makes you the unreasonable polar opposite, probably the only person in the world whose expectations for Toews are "leads team to Cup every year."
 

Dekes For Days

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I think I just debunked the /60 stats y'all.
No, what you've done is jump to an odd conclusion off of a ridiculous sample size of 50-something minutes cherry picked and patched together from multiple different years and series, while ignoring all context that enters into production (especially in the playoffs), and the other parts of the sample that counter your conclusion. Players don't score every single game.
 

Varan

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No, what you've done is jump to odd conclusions off of a ridiculous sample size of 50-something minutes cherry picked and patched together from multiple different years and series, while ignoring all context and the other parts of the sample that counter your conclusion. Players don't score every single game.
It’s ridiculous to say that he’s such an efficient scorer as his P/60 stats show and then has nothing to show for it in the most important game of the season.

This excuse that his time was limited is ridiculous because what the hell was he doing for the other 18 mins? If he’s as efficient as you say he is, he can do something of substance.

What is it? Does he need more ice time? Or he isn’t as efficient as you say he is.
 
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Dekes For Days

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It’s ridiculous to say that he’s such an efficient scorer as his P/60 stats show and then has nothing to show for it in the most important game of the season.
What is ridiculous is cherry picking a couple individual games from the playoffs that a player does not score in (against the best defensive teams in the league, no less) to create an arbitrary sample of pitiful size, to discredit his abilities that have been proven over a massive sample. Once again, players do not score every single game. Literally every player has playoff games where they do not score, including Toews. Stats you dislike aren't wrong just because you use them incorrectly.
 

Pyrophorus

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Babcock didn't hurt them anywhere near as much as the fact that their best matchup center got himself suspended two years in a row.

Honestly, the Leafs probably win the series against Boston in 2019 if they had Matthews, Tavares, Kadri down the middle.

So its true: People really did think Kadri was a linchpin for the Leafs.
 

Varan

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What is ridiculous is cherry picking individual games from the playoffs that a player does not score in (against the best defensive teams in the league, no less) to create an arbitrary sample of pitiful size, to discredit his abilities that have been proven over a massive sample. Once again, players do not score every single game. Literally every player has playoff games where they do not score, including Toews. Stats you dislike aren't wrong just because you use them incorrectly.
This entire post is a huge excuse for why he doesn't get the job done when it matters most. Like your friend LN75, I have stated that he is a fine playoff performer (his stats are fine across the board). My issue with him is only 1: he has done nothing in the most important game of the season for his team. I bet more than often had he done anything, the Leafs advance at least once in the last 3 years. That was what our whole discussion was (between me and LN75). It's not cherry picked because the conversation revolved only around that.
Literally every player has playoff games where they do not score, including Toews.
Yes every player does not score every single time, but it's weird how the most efficient scorer in the league (especially 5 on 5 to which the playoffs are mainly played in) repeatedly gets shut out in every winner-take-all game. Toews actually gets the job done.
 
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