Prime Jonathan Toews or Current Auston Matthews

[BHD]

Being a 1C on those teams makes you the engine, not a passenger.

Plenty of stacked teams DON'T win. Toews is a winner.

Yes, and Toews happened to be a #1C on some stacked teams. Does he even have the opportunity to play in big games if team around him isn’t that good? Probably not. It goes both ways.

 

[Varan]

And yet Matthews, on a team with Marner, Tavares, Andersen, etc. can't win a 1st round series...

40M on 4 players

 

[The Abusement Park]

Easy to be a winner when you play on stacked teams.

I mean it’s not like Toews joined the Hawks when they were dominating the league. He was an integral part of the Hawks becoming a stacked team.

 

[BHD]

And yet Matthews, on a team with Marner, Tavares, Andersen, etc. can't win a 1st round series...

Well, Andersen is a big reason why they lose in the playoffs. So there’s that.

 

[Varan]

Well, Andersen is a big reason why they lose in the playoffs. So there’s that.

And Matthews not scoring a single point in game 7s/game 5s isn’t a reason?

Considering all of their series have gone to the wire, and he hasn’t produced in any of them, he deserves a ton of blame.

Outside of 2018, the Leafs have scored 1 goal or FEWER goals in every single game 7/game 5. That is abysmal. If Matthews is as great as you say he is, that cannot happen.

 

[BHD]

I mean it’s not like Toews joined the Hawks when they were dominating the league. He was an integral part of the Hawks becoming a stacked team.

So, the Hawks didn’t have Keith, draft Kane, bring in Q, sign Campbell, or sign Hossa?

 

[authentic]

People here around 2013-2015 were claiming that Toews was equal or better than Crosby.

Toews got massively overrated before he got underrated.

I think there were a lot more people underrating him than those who thought he was actually better than Crosby.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yes, and Toews happened to be a #1C on some stacked teams. Does he even have the opportunity to play in big games if team around him isn’t that good? Probably not. It goes both ways.

Yes, eventually, if he's that good, probably. I can't think of many elite players who never even had a shot, can you? This is just something people say to cheapen Toews. You're oddly dug in on this. No one is saying he's a one-man team and no one can honestly look at past Cup winners and pretend they're not stacked in some way.

As I mentioned and you've dodged from myself and plenty of other posters, there are a LOT of 'stacked teams' that don't go all the way every year, and associated 1Cs whose legacies take a beating because of it. See: Joe Thornton.

None of that changes what I said: Toews is a winner and the engine. Everything else is just noise to tarnish his accomplishments.

 

[BHD]

Yes, eventually, if he's that good, probably. I can't think of many elite players who never even had a shot, can you? This is just something people say to cheapen Toews. You're oddly dug in on this.

As I mentioned and you've dodged from myself and plenty of other posters, there are a LOT of 'stacked teams' that don't go all the way every year, and associated 1Cs whose legacies take a beating because of it. See: Joe Thornton.

None of that changes what I said: Toews is a winner and the engine. Everything else is just noise.

Well, I fully expect him - engine and everything - to drag the Hawks all the way to Cup next season. After all, he’s a winner and can get it done.

 

[The Abusement Park]

So, the Hawks didn’t have Keith, draft Kane, bring in Q, sign Campbell, or sign Hossa?

I don’t think you’re understanding my point here? Yes they brought those players in, but Keith, Kane, and Toews were the big 3 who took the Hawks out of the basement so that they could be a good team. Which in turn made it possible to sign guys like Soupy and Hossa.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well, I fully expect him - engine and everything - to drag the Hawks all the way to Cup next season.

This seems very reasonable and not at all reactionary.

Who else do you place these expectations on?

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Toews. All the jokes about intangibles aside, you win Cups with top two way centers like him, Bergeron and Kopitar. You really got to see his value on those Team Canada teams. He was always one of, if not the best, forward along with Crosby.

 

[BHD]

This seems very reasonable and not at all reactionary.

Who else do you place these expectations on?

Wait... you mean a player can’t do everything by himself - willing his team to victory - and needs the support of other players?

 

[JaegerDice]

Not saying he didn’t play a role, but... Keith, Crawford, Hossa, Kane, and a really good supporting cast.

And referencing a Team Canada, where he was like their 10-12th best forward. Neat...

Uh.... did you watch the Olympics in 2010, when he won best forward at the tournament, or 2014, when he led Team Canada in ice-time among forwards?

 

[BHD]

Uh.... did you watch the Olympics in 2010, when he won best forward at the tournament, or 2014, when he led Team Canada in ice-time among forwards?

Because we all know Babcock is rational with how he plays his forwards/lines.

 

[M2Beezy]

And yet Matthews, on a team with Marner, Tavares, Andersen, etc. can't win a 1st round series...

Yep. They dont even make the playoffs anymore

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Not saying he didn’t play a role, but... Keith, Crawford, Hossa, Kane, and a really good supporting cast.

And referencing a Team Canada, where he was like their 10-12th best forward. Neat...

In fairness, Toews was used as their top defensive center and got just about as much ice time as Crosby, when you factored in his PK minutes. He wasn't just a bit player on a stacked Team Canada.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Wait... you mean a player can’t do everything by himself - willing his team to victory - and needs the support of other players?

Pretty much literally the entire first page was responses to you acknowledging this.

Is there a reason you're building a village of strawmen? What is your grumpiness with JT?

 

[BHD]

Pretty much literally the entire first page was responses to you acknowledging this.

Is there a reason you're building a village of strawmen? What is your grumpiness with JT?

He’s overrated, which is saying something considering he’s actually a very good player.

 

[JaegerDice]

Because we all know Babcock is rational with how he plays his forwards/lines.

Babcock didn't award Toews best forward in 2010.

As far as ice-time in 2014, he was the best defensive forward on the best defensive team in the Olympics. I can take issue with a lot of Babcock decisions over the years, but putting a prime Toews against the best players on the other team is not one of them.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

So, the Hawks didn’t have Keith, draft Kane, bring in Q, sign Campbell, or sign Hossa?

And the Leafs didn't have Rielly and Kadri, bring in Babcock, sign Tavares, or sign Barrie?

 

[BHD]

And the Leafs didn't have Rielly and Kadri, bring in Babcock, sign Tavares, or sign Barrie?

Babcock held them back in the playoffs...

 

[Mrfenn92]

Toews for me

 

[JaegerDice]

Babcock held them back in the playoffs...

Babcock didn't hurt them anywhere near as much as the fact that their best matchup center got himself suspended two years in a row.

Honestly, the Leafs probably win the series against Boston in 2019 if they had Matthews, Tavares, Kadri down the middle.

 

[authentic]

Yes, eventually, if he's that good, probably. I can't think of many elite players who never even had a shot, can you? This is just something people say to cheapen Toews. You're oddly dug in on this. No one is saying he's a one-man team and no one can honestly look at past Cup winners and pretend they're not stacked in some way.

As I mentioned and you've dodged from myself and plenty of other posters, there are a LOT of 'stacked teams' that don't go all the way every year, and associated 1Cs whose legacies take a beating because of it. See: Joe Thornton.

None of that changes what I said: Toews is a winner and the engine. Everything else is just noise to tarnish his accomplishments.

Even just looking at the individual playoff performances of Toews and Thornton in contrast with their regular seasons during their primes it's easy to see one individually stepped it up and the other didn't, and not surprisingly the one who stepped up got rewarded. Thornton's best playoff run was 21 points in 24 games coming from a guy who put up back to back 90+ assists seasons, then Toews had 29 points in 22 games in Chicago's first cup win with a career high of 69 points. That's only considering their offensive contributions as well. Toews was consistently among the best if not the best player in numerous big games in the playoffs and internationally.