Prime Jonathan Toews or Current Auston Matthews

[BHD]

Babcock didn't hurt them anywhere near as much as the fact that their best matchup center got himself suspended two years in a row.

Honestly, the Leafs probably win the series against Boston in 2019 if they had Matthews, Tavares, Kadri down the middle.

That too. Matthews definitely has to find that extra gear in the playoffs. However, there were stretches where Babcock was playing Gauthier and Marleau in key minutes of playoff games. Hard to give him a definitive grade when the coach doesn’t put him in the best position.

 

[joe dirte]

Toews. But matthews isnt far behind and likely to catch soon enough.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Babcock held them back in the playoffs...

Just because it worked out poorly for one team doesn't mean they didn't make similar moves.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

'People' is so vague as to be meaningless. Every fanbase has nutcases. Fans of opposing teams have claimed everybody from Ovechkin to Datsyuk, to Toews, to Giroux to be better than Crosby.

I have yet to see any Top 10, 50, or 100 list of NHL players from any reputable source list Toews ahead of Crosby.

It was on a daily basis and it was more than just a few « nutcases ».

Polls were close between the two players back then.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

You're not disagreeing with my statement. You're just interjecting your personal grumpiness at Toews, which is only emphasizing my point that what he does/did got overlooked.

I disagree that his shutdown ability is currently underrated. If it is, it’s really not by much. I am not grumpy towards Toews either (sounds weird just to say it).

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I think there were a lot more people underrating him than those who thought he was actually better than Crosby.

At which point in time? Now or 7 years ago?

 

[Killer Orcas]

And yet Matthews, on a team with Marner, Tavares, Andersen, etc. can't win a 1st round series...

Don't forget the qualifying round they punted that to this year. This is Toews and not really close prime Toews was arguably a top 2-3 forward for a bit. He was decent at offence and even better at the defensive game. Matthews has the ability to be better but he hasn't shown it yet.

 

[authentic]

At which point in time? Now or 7 years ago?

7 years ago. I remember it pretty clearly.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I disagree that his shutdown ability is currently underrated. If it is, it’s really not by much. I am not grumpy towards Toews either (sounds weird just to say it).

Okay, and that's fine--but you and @BHD are letting your opinions that Toews is overrated override his accomplishments to put expectations on him that you wouldn't reasonably put on any other player.

You're entitled to your opinions, I won't fight the overrated/underrated thing, but my opinion is that it's extremely petty to swing that pendulum back to the entirely opposite side and pretend he's a lesser player than some peers because others have a higher opinion.

And to bring it back to the point of the thread--Toews is a winner and has performances to back it up. Matthews is not there yet. Overrated or not, he's got the results both as an individual and a team, and Matthews has yet to grow into both.

 

[Regal]

Not saying he didn’t play a role, but... Keith, Crawford, Hossa, Kane, and a really good supporting cast.

And referencing a Team Canada, where he was like their 10-12th best forward. Neat...

Toews was on the matchup line that Babcock put out there the most, led the team in points and was named the best forward at the tournament, but yea ok. Toews was a top 10 forward in the league at his best so not sure how he's outside the top 10 on Team Canada.

I just saw you already responded to this with some shot at Babcock that made no sense. Closing your eyes and plugging your ears isn't an argument

 

[Regal]

I'm just waiting for dekesfordays to show up and tip the conversation on it's head by proving Matthews has more intangibles per 60 than Toews at his peak.

Funny enough, Toews' per 60 stats are actually extremely impressive.

 

[nobody]

He is 30+points behind Art Ross level in last 2 seasons. No realistic improvement on defence side can breach that especially to make him best "by decent margin". Dont think peak Datsyuk/Zetterberg were considered better than Malkin/Ovi and production gap was smaller.

I mean feel free to tell me when Datsyuk/ Zetterberg were ever averaging 44 goals per 82 games, 4 years into their careers and trending towards being 50 G, 100 P players while putting up good/great defensive stats. Datsyuk in 07-08 won the Selke and finished 3 in Hart Trophy voting. Yes, he had 16 points less than Malkin that year who put up 113 but overall speaking he was the best player in the NHL that season.

We've never had a big-time goal-scoring center with good defensive metrics since I don't know who. Matthews still has ways to go to get to Toews level defense during their cup runs but if he can get to that level and maintain his offensive stats/ goal scoring, I don't see how any player can match that type of contribution. Goals mean more to me than points. I'm not saying Matthews will be clear cut top player for an extended period of time but I think there's a definite chance he can be in that spot for multiple seasons. Similar to what Kuch and Drai have done the past 2 seasons. As good a player as McDavid is and has been, both those guys have had better/ more impactful seasons. Don't see why Matthews can't be on that list.

 

[nobody]

And the Leafs didn't have Rielly and Kadri, bring in Babcock, sign Tavares, or sign Barrie?

Barrie was atrocious. Also, Barrie and Kadri never played on the same team.

Rielly is a playoff beast.

Kadri is a playoff no show, not because he goes MIA but because he's suspended and literally didn't show up to games.

Babs was poor at adjusting to his team's identity which is a pure offense. He was trying to turn guys into defensive stalwarts even though it wasn't their strong suit or their playing style. Q was at least smart enough to own his team identity and play a high tempo offensive game. They had great D (something Leafs don't have in quantity) and that helped secure the backend as well.

JT has been a good soldier and signing for the leafs.

 

[nobody]

Funny enough, Toews' per 60 stats are actually extremely impressive.

And yet he got ripped on. Similar to how Matthews stats are stellar for what he has to work with in Toronto, the dude is over PPG this early in his career (something not achieved by players not named Ovi, Crosby, Malkin or Kane in the past 20 years). Yet Matthews gets ripped on while guys like Pettersson who haven't even hit PPG or 30 goals get praised over their "defensive prowess" and "amazing shot".

 

[BHD]

Okay, and that's fine--but you and @BHD are letting your opinions that Toews is overrated override his accomplishments to put expectations on him that you wouldn't reasonably put on any other player.

You're entitled to your opinions, I won't fight the overrated/underrated thing, but my opinion is that it's extremely petty to swing that pendulum back to the entirely opposite side and pretend he's a lesser player than some peers because others have a higher opinion.

And to bring it back to the point of the thread--Toews is a winner and has performances to back it up. Matthews is not there yet. Overrated or not, he's got the results both as an individual and a team, and Matthews has yet to grow into both.

So Toews can’t have unreasonable expectation placed on him, but fans can make him out to be the best player to ever lace up skates?

 

[Ctrain2k]

And yet he got ripped on. Similar to how Matthews stats are stellar for what he has to work with in Toronto, the dude is over PPG this early in his career (something not achieved by players not named Ovi, Crosby, Malkin or Kane in the past 20 years). Yet Matthews gets ripped on while guys like Pettersson who haven't even hit PPG or 30 goals get praised over their "defensive prowess" and "amazing shot".

You literally just made that up lol, I didn’t dig deep at all and the only 2 players I checked (McDavid and Stamkos) both hit that.

 

[Regal]

And yet he got ripped on. Similar to how Matthews stats are stellar for what he has to work with in Toronto, the dude is over PPG this early in his career (something not achieved by players not named Ovi, Crosby, Malkin or Kane in the past 20 years). Yet Matthews gets ripped on while guys like Pettersson who haven't even hit PPG or 30 goals get praised over their "defensive prowess" and "amazing shot".

Matthews' treatment is actually fairly similar to Toews. He got hyped up by TO fans to the point that people started to underrated him by arguing against him. Pettersson is starting to get there too, as the "not even PPG" arguments are just as bogus as the ones against Matthews. Pettersson's P/60 is also very good, and his underlying defensive numbers are better than Matthews.

 

[BHD]

Toews was on the matchup line that Babcock put out there the most, led the team in points and was named the best forward at the tournament, but yea ok. Toews was a top 10 forward in the league at his best so not sure how he's outside the top 10 on Team Canada.

I just saw you already responded to this with some shot at Babcock that made no sense. Closing your eyes and plugging your ears isn't an argument

Babcock is notorious for leaning on players of Toews’ mould. He could have been pedestrian the whole tournament, and Babcock still would have thrown him over the boards for half the game. He was going to get every opportunity to play.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Prime Toews was ****ing win. This goals sums him up pretty well.


I miss that guy. I get these types of debates but holy **** fans underrate those players that take top teams over the hump. It's no coincidence Ovi's best 200ft post season by far got him a cup, or that St. Louis didn't go all the way until O'Reilly came along, or that Tampa's forward group committed to both ends of the ice harder then ever on their way to a cup...one could go on back further.

The point of the damn game is to win the Stanley Cup.

 

[Regal]

Babcock is notorious for leaning on players of Toews’ mould. He could have been pedestrian the whole tournament, and Babcock still would have thrown him over the boards for half the game. He was going to get every opportunity to play.

And this would potentially be an argument if Toews didn't also lead the team in scoring and win best forward. Like I'm not sure what your argument is here? Are you suggesting that if Babcock didn't love players like Toews he would have had less ice time and someone else would have filled his role with better ability? That's pretty nonsensical and can be applied to almost anyone

 

[BHD]

And this would potentially be an argument if Toews didn't also lead the team in scoring and win best forward. Like I'm not sure what your argument is here? Are you suggesting that if Babcock didn't love players like Toews he would have had less ice time and someone else would have filled his role with better ability? That's pretty nonsensical and can be applied to almost anyone

Hard to showcase skills or put up points if you’re not getting the time. And yes, that can be applied to any player.

 

[LeafsNation75]

And Matthews not scoring a single point in game 7s/game 5s isn’t a reason?

Considering all of their series have gone to the wire, and he hasn’t produced in any of them, he deserves a ton of blame.

Outside of 2018, the Leafs have scored 1 goal or FEWER goals in every single game 7/game 5. That is abysmal. If Matthews is as great as you say he is, that cannot happen.

You're wrong about Matthews never scoring a single point in a Game 5.

Game 5 against Washington in 2017 Matthews scored the Maple Leafs only goal.



Game 5 against Boston in 2018 when they were down in the series 3-1, Matthews had the primary assist on the Maple Leafs first goal scored by Connor Brown giving them a 1-0 lead and they won 4-3.



Game 5 against Boston in 2019 Matthews scored the Maple Leafs first goal and they ended up winning 2-1.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Clearly they meant game 5 in a best-of-five series, not game 5 in a best-of-seven.

 

[Varan]

You're wrong about Matthews never scoring a single point in a Game 5.

Game 5 against Washington in 2017 Matthews scored the Maple Leafs only goal.



Game 5 against Boston in 2018 when they were down in the series 3-1, Matthews had the primary assist on the Maple Leafs first goal scored by Connor Brown giving them a 1-0 lead and they won 4-3.



Game 5 against Boston in 2019 Matthews scored the Maple Leafs first goal and they ended up winning 2-1.

I meant in winner-take-all games, which would be a game 7. I mentioned game 5 because it was basically a game 7 between the Jackets and the Leafs. The series was a best of 5, so the fifth game is the winner-take-all game.

 

[LeafsNation75]

And Matthews not scoring a single point in game 7s/game 5s isn’t a reason?

Considering all of their series have gone to the wire, and he hasn’t produced in any of them, he deserves a ton of blame.

Outside of 2018, the Leafs have scored 1 goal or FEWER goals in every single game 7/game 5. That is abysmal. If Matthews is as great as you say he is, that cannot happen.

I forgot to mention this.

I know you were only referring to previous Leafs series that went the distance. However in Game 6 against Washington in 2017 when Toronto was down 3-2 and facing elimination, in the 3rd period when the score was still 0-0, Matthews scored the first goal of that game and giving Toronto a 1-0 lead before they ended up losing 2-1 in overtime.



Plus in the 2017 playoffs Matthews had 5 points in 6 games.

2018 Was his only disappointing playoffs when he had 2 points in 7 games.

2019 He had 6 points in 7 games.

2020 Despite him not scoring any points in Game 5 against Columbus, Matthews had 6 points in 5 games.

So in his playoff career he has 19 points in 25 games played.

That's why it's hard to put 100% of the blame on him for the Maple Leafs not winning any of those series, because Matthews hasn't been a reason why they lost. I mean why not blame John Tavares for hitting the post in Game 5 when they were losing 1-0, because if he scores and ties the game 1-1 who knows what happens. So basically my point is everyone of the Maple Leafs players deserves the blame for them getting shutout and not only Matthews.

Hell if it wasn't for Matthews scoring the overtime winning goal in Game 4 there would have never been a Game 5 to be played.