Please vote for the best hockey player - (Crosby, Hasek, Jagr, Ovechkin, McDavid)

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby kind of is a player that devalues the Conn Smythe though. In no way was he the best player in 15/16.

I would have voted for Kessel due to the point totals, but Crosby was very clearly the best player in terms of level of play that playoffs.

 

[Beau Knows]

McDavid > Crosby > Hasek > Ovechkin > Jagr

 

[brentashton]

Please vote for the best hockey player

You should put some context around this poll, because NONE of these guys are the “best hockey player”, unless there is a caveat attached.

 

[kmart]

It's really not. If anything the romanticism of the past is to the level of stupidity here.

hoh all time rankings

lets be reality, its the romanticism of canadians, it is a north american site so a bit of homerism is expected... but jagr #2 overall in all time poitns is not in the top10 makes me not even bother to put in votes regarding everything all time related on here.

about time ovechkin twists the dagger in the hearts of those homers and snatches the all time goal record

 

[byrath]

Best peak or best career? Best in the absolute sense or compared to peers? Take 10 seconds to specify these things in the OP and we could all be spared a lot of stupid arguments.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

View attachment 624713
hoh all time rankings

lets be reality, its the romanticism of canadians, it is a north american site so a bit of homerism is expected... but jagr #2 overall in all time poitns is not in the top10 makes me not even bother to put in votes regarding everything all time related on here.

about time ovechkin twists the dagger in the hearts of those homers and snatches the all time goal record

Not to mention hockey was a relatively immature sport that has continued evolving rapidly over the last 50 years. It's not like baseball or soccer where the game itself is very similar to decades ago. People using what players did in a 6 or 12 team league where only one country produced players to conclude they were better than Crosby/Ovechkin/Jagr or whomever seems ridiculous. High performers in a league with global talent trumps all imo.

 

[wetcoast]

Not to mention hockey was a relatively immature sport that has continued evolving rapidly over the last 50 years. It's not like baseball or soccer where the game itself is very similar to decades ago. People using what players did in a 6 or 12 team league where only one country produced players to conclude they were better than Crosby/Ovechkin/Jagr or whomever seems ridiculous. High performers in a league with global talent trumps all imo.

All 5 guys in this thread who are being talked about are post 1990 so why the sideshow?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

All 5 guys in this thread who are being talked about are post 1990 so why the sideshow?

I'm responding directly to the comment about hoh rankings not the original post.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm responding directly to the comment about hoh rankings not the original post.

Well Kmart probably just looked at the ranking and never read the discussions.

I disagree with Jagr being that low but his career does have some downsides compared to some (many) in front of him.

16th spot wasn't a complete insult there.

 

[Craig Button]

Jagr > Crosby > McDavid > Ovechkin.

No need for Hasek on this list.

It’s like comparing Apples to broccoli. It’s dumb

The only players better than Jagr are Lemieux and Gretzky

 

[Hockey Outsider]

View attachment 624713
hoh all time rankings

lets be reality, its the romanticism of canadians, it is a north american site so a bit of homerism is expected... but jagr #2 overall in all time poitns is not in the top10 makes me not even bother to put in votes regarding everything all time related on here.

about time ovechkin twists the dagger in the hearts of those homers and snatches the all time goal record

Ron Francis is 5th all-time in points. HOH didn't have him in the top 100 (he was ranked 120th in the follow-up Top 200 project, behind a bunch of European players who never played a single game in the NHL - such as Anatoli Firsov, Boris Mikhailov, Alexander Maltsev, Valeri Vasiliev and Jiri Holecek).

Mark Recchi is 13th all-time in points. He was ranked 172nd in the follow-up Top 200 project (behind European players like Vladimir Petrov, Jan Suchy, Alexei Kasatonov and Vaclav Nedomansky).

Sergei Makarov was lower than 700th all-time in scoring when the project ran. He was ranked 26th all-time (ahead of universally-respected Canadian legends like Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, Martin Brodeur, and Mike Bossy).

Slava Fetisov ranked lower than 1,000th all-time in scoring when the project ran. (Even just among defensemen, he was close to 300th). He was ranked 8th among defensemen (and 25th overall) - ahead of Canadian legends like Larry Robinson, Paul Coffey, Brad Park, and Chris Pronger.

Career totals are a poor way of evaluating players. This is reflected in the results of the Top 100 (and Top 200) projects. If the goal of HOH was to promote Canadians, we did a really bad job of it, since it would have been easy to rank Canadian legends like Brodeur, Sakic, Yzerman and Bossy ahead of Soviet greats like Makarov and Fetisov. And European greats who the vast majority of North American fans have never heard of (Mikhailov, Maltsev, Firsov, etc) wouldn't have gotten the time of day, let alone being ranked ahead of universally-respected Canadians like Ron Francis, Scott Niedermayer, Patrice Bergeron, Gilbert Perreault, and Adam Oates.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Ron Francis is 5th all-time in points. HOH didn't have him in the top 100 (he was ranked 120th in the follow-up Top 200 project, behind a bunch of European players who never played a single game in the NHL - such as Anatoli Firsov, Boris Mikhailov, Alexander Maltsev, Valeri Vasiliev and Jiri Holecek).

Mark Recchi is 13th all-time in points. He was ranked 172nd in the follow-up Top 200 project (behind European players like Vladimir Petrov, Jan Suchy, Alexei Kasatonov and Vaclav Nedomansky).

Sergei Makarov was lower than 700th all-time in scoring when the project ran. He was ranked 26th all-time (ahead of universally-respected Canadian legends like Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, Martin Brodeur, and Mike Bossy).

Slava Fetisov ranked lower than 1,000th all-time in scoring when the project ran. (Even just among defensemen, he was close to 300th). He was ranked 8th among defensemen (and 25th overall) - ahead of Canadian legends like Larry Robinson, Paul Coffey, Brad Park, and Chris Pronger.

Career totals are a poor way of evaluating players. This is reflected in the results of the Top 100 (and Top 200) projects. If the goal of HOH was to promote Canadians, we did a really bad job of it, since it would have been easy to rank Canadian legends like Brodeur, Sakic, Yzerman and Bossy ahead of Soviet greats like Makarov and Fetisov. And European greats who the vast majority of North American fans have never heard of (Mikhailov, Maltsev, Firsov, etc) wouldn't have gotten the time of day, let alone being ranked ahead of universally-respected Canadians like Ron Francis, Scott Niedermayer, Patrice Bergeron, Gilbert Perreault, and Adam Oates.

How did you quantify quality of competition? For example Lidstrom played in a league with a lot of European and American talent, along with sophisticated systems, modern goaltending techniques, and won 7 Norris trophies. Harvey dominated in the 40s/50s when only Canadians played and hockey was a much more rudimentary game. Why is Lidstrom ranked lower? There should be a heavier weighting for players who played in a more talent filled league imo.

 

[Mrb1p]

Not really.

McDavid is about to win his 5 Art Ross (his 7th consecutive top 2 finish and 3rd win in a row), 3rd Hart (5th finalist nomination), and 4th Lindsay in just 8 seasons. He’s flirting with a 140-150 point season as we speak and is in a terrific position to scoop up the Rocket and also lead the league in assists. He’s put up 1.61 PPG over the last 350 games of his career and needs to average just 1.56 for the rest of this season to hit 140, so don’t tell me that it or 150 isn’t in play.

He’ll also have 825+ career points through the completion of just 8 seasons which includes playing just half his rookie campaign and losing 37 games due to COVID.

If he does what seems to be the impossible and leads the Oilers to at least a Cup berth 6 months from now, it’s not going to be perceived as remotely insane. He’s about halfway home to being the consensus #5 all-time.

Enjoy his career as it happens, instead of being part of that crowd 10-12 years from now who will pretend it was an honor only when he’s about to retire.

It doesn’t take much to see that barring a catastrophic downturn in health, McDavid will have carved out a career that dwarfs all but the Big Four.

Mcdavid is pretty much equal to Jagr, Hull, Mikita, Beliveau and Ovi at this point, hes not over Crosby.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

Mcdavid is pretty much equal to Jagr, Hull, Mikita, Beliveau and Ovi at this point, hes not over Crosby.

Based on respective careers to this point, he should be equal to or greater than Crosby at the same age.

 

[Mrb1p]

Based on respective careers to this point, he should be equal to or greater than Crosby at the same age.

I mean.... no.

 

[BraveCanadian]

How did you quantify quality of competition? For example Lidstrom played in a league with a lot of European and American talent, along with sophisticated systems, modern goaltending techniques, and won 7 Norris trophies. Harvey dominated in the 40s/50s when only Canadians played and hockey was a much more rudimentary game. Why is Lidstrom ranked lower? There should be a heavier weighting for players who played in a more talent filled league imo.

Let me know when you have an objective way to measure how talent filled a league is besides how recently they played and then I'm sure they will..

Hint - it is way more complicated than you think and practically everyone on the history board already makes a mental adjustment for weaker periods. For that matter there is a very good case we're post peak NHL talent right now.

 

[Xspyrit]

I mean, who cares? What he does in his twilight years has nothing to do with the thread - this only started because of your silly career PPG argument for a guy who is currently at his peak.

Ok now I'm confused... I posted the information that McDavid currently had the 4th highest PPG in history and then YOU quoted me on that exact subject and now... you don't care? I mean, that's kinda weird

And why would it be a "silly argument"? I mean, it's PURE information lol. Of course he is currently in his peak but the problem is you don't see the whole picture so I am going to lay down some numbers.

This is McDavid PPGs for each season :

2015-16 19 EDM NHL 45 1.07
2016-17 20 EDM NHL 82 1.22
2017-18 21 EDM NHL 82 1.32
2018-19 22 EDM NHL 78 1.49
2019-20 23 EDM NHL 64 1.52
2020-21 24 EDM NHL 56 1.88
2021-22 25 EDM NHL 80 1.54
2022-23 26 EDM NHL 33 1.94

It seems like he entered his prime around 22 y/o, starting to post 1.5+ PPGs

The question is how long do you think he could continue to post PPGs between 1.5 and 2.0? I'll use a % for GP (96%) and an average for PPG (1.62) for his 22 y/o+ seasons. I'll assume he will continue on these trends (first below is the rest of the current season) until 32 y/o (very conservative IMO)

2022-23 26 EDM NHL 47 1.62
2023-24 27 EDM NHL 79 1.62
2024-25 28 EDM NHL 79 1.62
2025-26 29 EDM NHL 79 1.62
2026-27 30 ????? NHL 79 1.62
2027-28 31 ????? NHL 79 1.62
2028-29 32 ????? NHL 79 1.62

Then let's anticipate a decline from 33 to 36 and % of GP that drops too

2029-30 33 ????? NHL 70 1.30
2030-31 34 ????? NHL 70 1.30
2031-32 35 ????? NHL 70 1.30

Finally, another decline for the last 3 years of his career (let's say which stops at 38 y/o like Gretzky)

2032-33 36 ????? NHL 65 0.80
2033-34 37 ????? NHL 65 0.80
2034-35 38 ????? NHL 65 0.80

I'll spare you the calculations to save some space but it results in 2034 pts in 1446 GP for 1.41 PPG, which would still be 4th place in PPG and 2nd in total points. It would be absolutely incredible as he is not playing in the most prolific scoring era like Lemieux and Gretzky did. You might not LIKE this but this is very realistic

So IF the question now would be : IF McDavid stays relatively healthy and there isn't any DRASTIC changes to the NHL, do you still think this is SILLY?

 

[Gurglesons]

Ok now I'm confused... I posted the information that McDavid currently had the 4th highest PPG in history and then YOU quoted me on that exact subject and now... you don't care? I mean, that's kinda weird

And why would it be a "silly argument"? I mean, it's PURE information lol. Of course he is currently in his peak but the problem is you don't see the whole picture so I am going to lay down some numbers.

This is McDavid PPGs for each season :

2015-16 19 EDM NHL 45 1.07
2016-17 20 EDM NHL 82 1.22
2017-18 21 EDM NHL 82 1.32
2018-19 22 EDM NHL 78 1.49
2019-20 23 EDM NHL 64 1.52
2020-21 24 EDM NHL 56 1.88
2021-22 25 EDM NHL 80 1.54
2022-23 26 EDM NHL 33 1.94

It seems like he entered his prime around 22 y/o, starting to post 1.5+ PPGs

The question is how long do you think he could continue to post PPGs between 1.5 and 2.0? I'll use a % for GP (96%) and an average for PPG (1.62) for his 22 y/o+ seasons. I'll assume he will continue on these trends (first below is the rest of the current season) until 32 y/o (very conservative IMO)

2022-23 26 EDM NHL 47 1.62
2023-24 27 EDM NHL 79 1.62
2024-25 28 EDM NHL 79 1.62
2025-26 29 EDM NHL 79 1.62
2026-27 30 ????? NHL 79 1.62
2027-28 31 ????? NHL 79 1.62
2028-29 32 ????? NHL 79 1.62

Then let's anticipate a decline from 33 to 36 and % of GP that drops too

2029-30 33 ????? NHL 70 1.30
2030-31 34 ????? NHL 70 1.30
2031-32 35 ????? NHL 70 1.30

Finally, another decline for the last 3 years of his career (let's say which stops at 38 y/o like Gretzky)

2032-33 36 ????? NHL 65 0.80
2033-34 37 ????? NHL 65 0.80
2034-35 38 ????? NHL 65 0.80

I'll spare you the calculations to save some space but it results in 2034 pts in 1446 GP for 1.41 PPG, which would still be 4th place in PPG and 2nd in total points. It would be absolutely incredible as he is not playing in the most prolific scoring era like Lemieux and Gretzky did. You might not LIKE this but this is very realistic

So IF the question now would be : IF McDavid stays relatively healthy and there isn't any DRASTIC changes to the NHL, do you still think this is SILLY?

It's very realistic that McDavid a player whose entire game is built on being faster than everyone else is scoring at 1.62 in his early 30s?

 

[Xspyrit]

It's very realistic that McDavid a player whose entire game is built on being faster than everyone else is scoring at 1.62 in his early 30s?

Entire game? Wait, do you think he's some grinder with speed or what? lol

IF he stays healthy, what makes you think he'll get any slower before 32 y/o? And after that, do you really think he'll stop producing, even if he loses some speed?

Ovechkin is now 37 y/o and still scores a bunch of goals like he always did (0.65 GPG last year and 0.59 this year vs 0.61 career wise). Crosby is 35.5 y/o and doesn't seem to struggle posting numbers (1.22 GPG last year and 1.31 this year vs 1.27 career wise). The numbers I projected for McDavid are relatively conservative, that you like it or not.

What makes you say McDavid is not in that tier of players or that he would decline much faster than them? Speed? Is there anything else?

Curious to hear the arguments. Always fascinating to witness "fan resistance"

 

[SwedishFire]

Sidney
McDavid
Jagr/McDavid and Jagr has equal great finnish in speed.
Hasek
Ovie

 

[Three On Zero]

Tough choice between Crosby or Hasek

 

[authentic]

It's very realistic that McDavid a player whose entire game is built on being faster than everyone else is scoring at 1.62 in his early 30s?

I don’t think it’s so much his speed will take a huge hit as his ability to go full throttle for 22-23+ minutes a game. Look at clips of Fedorov and Bure in their 30s and their skating was still amazing. I think people anticipating a steep decline will be in for a big surprise.

 

[winnipegger]

Crosby is the best. From 2005 - now he's had an incredible career. He could melt down all his hardware and build a tank.