Please vote for the best hockey player - (Crosby, Hasek, Jagr, Ovechkin, McDavid)

[Future GOAT]

The recency bias is insane here

It's really not. If anything the romanticism of the past is to the level of stupidity here.

 

[Leafidelity]

I believe peak Hasek was the best goalie to ever play, so this wasn't a very hard choice for me.

Not surprised at the results though. I don't think its recency bias, I just don't think a lot of people here are old enough to really remember prime Hasek.

 

[Xspyrit]

Edit : lol don't quote this post mentioning Crosby, just read the following posts


I don't know if people realize that McDavid has the 4th highest PPG in HISTORY. The thing is I don't see him slowing down anytime soon, I'd say he will do the opposite

Only Gretzky, Lemieux and Bossy are in front of him and they all played in the highest scoring of all time

He's also climbing up the goal scoring ladder very fast.


Also, impossible to compare a goalie with skaters.

 

[authentic]

I don't know if people realize that McDavid has the 4th highest PPG in HISTORY. The thing is I don't see him slowing down anytime soon, I'd say he will do the opposite

Only Gretzky, Lemieux and Bossy are in front of him and they all played in the highest scoring of all time

He's also climbing up the goal scoring ladder very fast.


Also, impossible to compare a goalie with skaters.

The same thing was true of Crosby at the same age. I agree though it will likely only go up for a few years atleast with a fair chance to stay that way by the end of his career so long as scoring doesn’t plummet throughout the league.

 

[wetcoast]

The same thing was true of Crosby at the same age. I agree though it will likely only go up for a few years atleast with a fair chance to stay that way by the end of his career so long as scoring doesn’t plummet throughout the league.

Crosby turned out okay even with the injuries.

 

[authentic]

Crosby turned out okay even with the injuries.

Yeah 18 years of elite play is not too shabby. I would also bet he has 2 more left in him atleast.

 

[dire wolf]

I look at this way -- if I were starting a franchise and could pick one of these players for their whole career, who would I choose to have the biggest impact on my team and create the most success. For me, it's Hasek and then Crosby. Hasek could carry the whole team on his back and elevate an average team into a contender and a good team into a champion. Sid seems to make everyone on the team better and always make the right play at both ends of the ice. The details in his game go way beyond his stats and continue even off the ice.

McDavid may be the most talented skater ever, but I'm not convinced he is generating the most success. Granted, he's still got plenty of time to evolve into that type of player, but I don't think he's on Sid's level. Peak Crosby is one of the top scorers in the league and also does literally everything else well. McDavid scores more, but is not better than Sid at any other aspect of the game. I'm not trying to take anything away from McDavid -- he's obviously going to go down as one of the all-time best, and probably the most dynamic, electrifying scorer of all time. But hockey is a complicated game that involves a ton of factors. I'm picking Crosby over McJ.

 

[dire wolf]

So you think Dominik Hasek is better than Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe. Thanks, I needed that laugh.

Laugh all you want. Goalie is a unique/more valuable position. An incredible goalie can have a greater impact on the game. It's hard to remember because there haven't been any goalies recently that have stood out that much over a long period of time.

 

[bobholly39]

I look at this way -- if I were starting a franchise and could pick one of these players for their whole career, who would I choose to have the biggest impact on my team and create the most success. For me, it's Hasek and then Crosby. Hasek could carry the whole team on his back and elevate an average team into a contender and a good team into a champion. Sid seems to make everyone on the team better and always make the right play at both ends of the ice. The details in his game go way beyond his stats and continue even off the ice.

McDavid may be the most talented skater ever, but I'm not convinced he is generating the most success. Granted, he's still got plenty of time to evolve into that type of player, but I don't think he's on Sid's level. Peak Crosby is one of the top scorers in the league and also does literally everything else well. McDavid scores more, but is not better than Sid at any other aspect of the game. I'm not trying to take anything away from McDavid -- he's obviously going to go down as one of the all-time best, and probably the most dynamic, electrifying scorer of all time. But hockey is a complicated game that involves a ton of factors. I'm picking Crosby over McJ.

I'm not saying your decision to choose Hasek first is completely flawed, as he was obviously incredible.

But wording it as you do, I just want to point out there is a big risk. Hasek wasn't a starter in the NHL until age ~29. Are you implying here you draft and get Hasek at age 18?

To me - this is a potential butterfly effect. If Hasek starts in the NHL at age 18, does he figure it out even earlier and end up having an elite career spawning ~20 years and is regarded even much higher than today? Maybe...

Or - was he simply not at all ready at age 18, and if he was rushed at the NHL, he maybe crashes and burns in the first few years, and simply ends up leaving the NHL and never fully making it?

He has such a unique career path that when I speculate on hypotheticals, I always wonder with Hasek how things would change if he was in the NHL full-time at age 18, and I'm unsure what it would be.

I do agree on your Crosby vs McDavid analysis. Still Crosby today, let's see what McDavid does in next few years, potential to change it.

 

[Xspyrit]

The same thing was true of Crosby at the same age. I agree though it will likely only go up for a few years atleast with a fair chance to stay that way by the end of his career so long as scoring doesn’t plummet throughout the league.

Oh yeah Crosby is also one of the all-time greats and is currently 7th in PPG (Orr and Dionne ahead), McDavid will be a little touch above though (if he stays healthy of course). If McJesus doesn't win a Cup, it will be a much bigger shame than Dionne not winning

 

[DearDiary]

I don't know if people realize that McDavid has the 4th highest PPG in HISTORY. The thing is I don't see him slowing down anytime soon, I'd say he will do the opposite

Only Gretzky, Lemieux and Bossy are in front of him and they all played in the highest scoring of all time

He's also climbing up the goal scoring ladder very fast.


Also, impossible to compare a goalie with skaters.

Crosby was also 4th for a long time. Crazy that a players peak+prime ppg will be higher than players whose ppg includes their decline. There's many reasons to pump up McDavid, but that's a useless statistic

 

[Xspyrit]

Crosby was also 4th for a long time. Crazy that a players peak+prime ppg will be higher than players whose ppg includes their decline. There's many reasons to pump up McDavid, but that's a useless statistic

Useless statistic or not, he grabbed the spot and it's his to lose. He will actually leapfrog Bossy 3rd spot in not too long. And don't worry, he'll continue to pile up actual points too. He could reach 1300 pts by the time he's 30 y/o.

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby was also 4th for a long time. Crazy that a players peak+prime ppg will be higher than players whose ppg includes their decline. There's many reasons to pump up McDavid, but that's a useless statistic

While I agree that there’s little point yet of touting someone’s career PPG while still relatively early into a career, I’m going to take issue with this statement because as it is often with Crosby, I find it a bit exaggerated and I’ll prove it with the objective data.

Crosby passed Orr for 4th place for the first time after his 1st game of the 2011-2012 season when he collected 4 points. He had 576 points in 413 games for a career average of 1.395 PPG, just ahead of Orr’s 1.393.

Before he went down and missed 3 months, he had 12 points through 8 games which brought his average back below Orr’s at 1.391.

He would pass Orr again in March of 2012 and finish the 2011-2012 season with 609 points through 434 games, good for 1.403 PPG.

He would see his career peak PPG during the lockout shortened season and finish with 665 points through 470 games to maintain sole possession of 4th in career PPG at 1.415 by the end of the 2012-2013 season.

He completed 2013-2014 at 769 points in 550 games, a 1.3918 PPG, back below Orr.

He started 2014-2015 strong with 24 points in 13 games to retake 4th place again and hit the highest it would ever be again for his career. He had 793 points in 563 games, a 1.4085 PPG.

It would slowly fall throughout the rest of the season and he would complete 2014-2015 with 853 points in 627 games, a tumble down to 1.36 PPG, which brought him about in middle of Orr and Dionne.

In conclusion, Crosby moved ahead and slipped behind Orr a few times during the time period of 2011-2012 through 2014-2015 seasons. In real time, this fluctuation lasted about 2.5 years, which includes 3 off seasons. Even if we pretend that Crosby never fell behind and moved ahead of Orr multiple times, his reign at 4th lasted all of 200 games, spread out over parts of 4 seasons.

I think it’s a bit much to pretend that he had the stranglehold McDavid has had on 4th place, behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bossy, especially since McDavid is still upticking at his current 1.463 PPG and inviting conversation that he could possibly move past Bossy’s 1.497 PPG before he begins making his own potential downturn back below Orr by the end.

We’re entering that uncomfortable time for Crosby zealots where McDavid has already been ahead of Orr’s PPG for about 120 straight now, is building a cushion for the eventual fall, and is even inexplicably chipping away at Bossy.

It would take 365 points in McDavid’s next 232 games to match Bossy’s 1126 in 752 games. A 1.573 PPG during that time for a player who has gone 1.61 over his last 350 games seems possible, considering he would have turned just 29 on the calendar at that point.

Anything McDavid does from here on out is building a cushion for a chance to never give back 4th to Orr. Stranger things have happened.

 

[DrDangles]

I don't know if people realize that McDavid has the 4th highest PPG in HISTORY. The thing is I don't see him slowing down anytime soon, I'd say he will do the opposite

Only Gretzky, Lemieux and Bossy are in front of him and they all played in the highest scoring of all time

He's also climbing up the goal scoring ladder very fast.


Also, impossible to compare a goalie with skaters.

Pretty positive that's where Crosby was up until he was 29-30ish as well. Talking about career PPG during somebody's peak/prime is kind of pointless, Crosby is only 3 spots behind him while being in the league an entire decade longer. Theres no way McDavid finishes top 5 in PPG unless he retires before he's 30.

 

[Xspyrit]

Pretty positive that's where Crosby was up until he was 29-30ish as well. Talking about career PPG during somebody's peak/prime is kind of pointless, Crosby is only 3 spots behind him while being in the league an entire decade longer. Theres no way McDavid finishes top 5 in PPG unless he retires before he's 30.

Read a few more posts below...

 

[nowhereman]

While I agree that there’s little point yet of touting someone’s career PPG while still relatively early into a career, I’m going to take issue with this statement because as it is often with Crosby, I find it a bit exaggerated and I’ll prove it with the objective data.

Crosby passed Orr for 4th place for the first time after his 1st game of the 2011-2012 season when he collected 4 points. He had 576 points in 413 games for a career average of 1.395 PPG, just ahead of Orr’s 1.393.

Before he went down and missed 3 months, he had 12 points through 8 games which brought his average back below Orr’s at 1.391.

He would pass Orr again in March of 2012 and finish the 2011-2012 season with 609 points through 434 games, good for 1.403 PPG.

He would see his career peak PPG during the lockout shortened season and finish with 665 points through 470 games to maintain sole possession of 4th in career PPG at 1.415 by the end of the 2012-2013 season.

He completed 2013-2014 at 769 points in 550 games, a 1.3918 PPG, back below Orr.

He started 2014-2015 strong with 24 points in 13 games to retake 4th place again and hit the highest it would ever be again for his career. He had 793 points in 563 games, a 1.4085 PPG.

It would slowly fall throughout the rest of the season and he would complete 2014-2015 with 853 points in 627 games, a tumble down to 1.36 PPG, which brought him about in middle of Orr and Dionne.

In conclusion, Crosby moved ahead and slipped behind Orr a few times during the time period of 2011-2012 through 2014-2015 seasons. In real time, this fluctuation lasted about 2.5 years, which includes 3 off seasons. Even if we pretend that Crosby never fell behind and moved ahead of Orr multiple times, his reign at 4th lasted all of 200 games, spread out over parts of 4 seasons.

I think it’s a bit much to pretend that he had the stranglehold McDavid has had on 4th place, behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bossy, especially since McDavid is still upticking at his current 1.463 PPG and inviting conversation that he could possibly move past Bossy’s 1.497 PPG before he begins making his own potential downturn back below Orr by the end.

We’re entering that uncomfortable time for Crosby zealots where McDavid has already been ahead of Orr’s PPG for about 120 straight now, is building a cushion for the eventual fall, and is even inexplicably chipping away at Bossy.

It would take 365 points in McDavid’s next 232 games to match Bossy’s 1126 in 752 games. A 1.573 PPG during that time for a player who has gone 1.61 over his last 350 games seems possible, considering he would have turned just 29 on the calendar at that point.

Anything McDavid does from here on out is building a cushion for a chance to never give back 4th to Orr. Stranger things have happened.

Well, I'll give you credit for showing your work but that's a lot of something that doesn't really say much of anything. The moment you start counting consecutive days as your standard, you're getting into the weeds.

At the end of the day, Crosby was still 4th in PPG for a substantial amount of time, which was very impressive given league scoring trends. Today's NHL is seeing aging veterans like Zuccarello, Pavelski, and Nelson scoring at the highest clip of their careers, while legends like Crosby, Ovechkin and Karlsson are scoring at a rate roughly at or better than their prime. Between the 10-11 season and 14-15, only 5 players (Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux, and OV) scored at higher than a PPG (with a minimum of 5 games played). Over the last 5 years, 26 players have averaged over a PPG.

So, yes, McDavid has held the 4th spot for more consecutive games. But the thought that he'll play a full career and not see his point totals dip enough to drop past Orr is wishful thinking. Gretzky, Howe, Crosby and Jagr all saw their career PPG take a hit the longer they played and your boy McJesus won't be any different (barring a career-ending injury).

 

[Video Nasty]

Well, I'll give you credit for showing your work but that's a lot of something that doesn't really say much of anything. The moment you start counting consecutive days as your standard, you're getting into the weeds.

At the end of the day, Crosby was still 4th in PPG for a substantial amount of time, which was very impressive given league scoring trends. Today's NHL is seeing aging veterans like Zuccarello, Pavelski, and Nelson scoring at the highest clip of their careers, while legends like Crosby, Ovechkin and Karlsson are scoring at a rate roughly at or better than their prime. Between the 10-11 season and 14-15, only 5 players (Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux, and OV) scored at higher than a PPG (with a minimum of 5 games played). Over the last 5 years, 26 players have average over a PPG.

So, yes, McDavid has held the 4th spot for more consecutive games. But the thought that he'll play a full career and not see his point totals dip enough to drop past Orr is wishful thinking. Gretzky, Howe, Crosby and Jagr all saw their career PPG take a hit the longer they player and your boy McJesus won't be any different (barring a career-ending injury).

I understand my post was long and possibly tortuous, but my overall point wasn’t about the consecutive games or that McDavid wouldn’t see his own decline just as every other player. It was about addressing the usual overestimation and sometimes just flat out pretend mystique that is bestowed on Crosby. Sub 3 years, where it wasn’t much higher when it was, whether it was consecutive or not, isn’t “a long time” or even “substantial”. Not in the way that it is implied.

If you even read the post, I explicitly mentioned how McDavid would likely eventually fall back behind Orr by the end.

The difference is, he’ll do that somewhere in his 30s, not at age 27 like Crosby.

And if he continues his play from the last 5 years for the next 3 seasons after this (which will be his final full seasons in his 20s), it will take quite a bit for him to tumble past Dionne and outside the top 5 by the time he calls it quits.

 

[North Cole]

Best is McDavid, greatest is Crosby/Jagr > Hasek > OV

 

[Xspyrit]

While I agree that there’s little point yet of touting someone’s career PPG while still relatively early into a career

The problem I have with this being "rejected" is that people assume that ALL-TIME GREATS are mere humans and will automatically decline in their 30's... A lot of names could be thrown here but just look at Crosby and Ovechkin, doesn't look like age has been preventing them from producing. I could easily see McDavid be over PPG until 40 y/o as long as he stays relatively healthy. He will rack up a crazy amount of points. It won't be enough to leapforg Gretzky because the 80's will only happen once but don't be surprised if he ends up 2nd all-time

 

[JaegerDice]

Best? Crosby.

Most talented? McDavid

 

[BraveCanadian]

The problem I have with this being "rejected" is that people assume that ALL-TIME GREATS are mere humans and will automatically decline in their 30's... A lot of names could be thrown here but just look at Crosby and Ovechkin, doesn't look like age has been preventing them from producing. I could easily see McDavid be over PPG until 40 y/o as long as he stays relatively healthy. He will rack up a crazy amount of points. It won't be enough to leapforg Gretzky because the 80's will only happen once but don't be surprised if he ends up 2nd all-time

There isn't an all time great ever that didn't slow down significantly on the wrong side of like 35. Sometimes it is masked by an uptick in scoring league wide like is happening now, but anyone with eyeballs can tell it is still happening. And anyone over the age of 35 or so also knows that you slow down significantly. You just wait kids, time will catch up to you too! Now get off of my lawn..

 

[Xspyrit]

There isn't an all time great ever that didn't slow down significantly on the wrong side of like 35. Sometimes it is masked by an uptick in scoring league wide like is happening now, but anyone with eyeballs can tell it is still happening. And anyone over the age of 35 or so also knows that you slow down significantly. You just wait kids, time will catch up to you too! Now get off of my lawn..

What kind of PPG do you think McDavid could have between 35 and 40?

He’s almost at 2 PPG right now, let’s say he declines at 1 PPG, he will still rack up points, no?

 

[avsfan9]

Hasek is a top 3 player ever.

Hasek is the most overrated player ever

 

[authentic]

Best? Crosby.

Most talented? McDavid

Best in career or peak/prime?

 

[BraveCanadian]

What kind of PPG do you think McDavid could have between 35 and 40?

He’s almost at 2 PPG right now, let’s say he declines at 1 PPG, he will still rack up points, no?

I mean, who cares? What he does in his twilight years has nothing to do with the thread - this only started because of your silly career PPG argument for a guy who is currently at his peak.