Players own League - funded by former NY mayor Rudy Giuliani?

[SENSible1*]

OK so we've established that this is simply a different form of a PA press release, so I'm more interested in looking for their motivation.

They can't possibly think the NHL or the owners would feel any extra pressure or that they could generate any leverage out of this. It is simply too transparent to serve that purpose, so why bother?

The fans really don't play a role in this part of the process so we can eliminate them.

Is this an attempt to shore up support for the "make a deal" faction? I can't see how that would help.

This leads to the conclusion that this is yet another attempt by Goody to sour the deal and dupe the players into thinking that there is a viable alternative to taking a deal Bobby doesn't like.

Here's hoping that the PA membership can see through this for the sham that it is.

 

[AM]

yup

Just suppose for a second that the multitude of stars necessary aligned and a new major hockey league was formed...what type of revenues would it generate short term? What type of salaries could the players expect (i.e. the fraction of the NHLPA who would be employed)?

P i e i n t h e s k y

of the cow variety!

 

[mackdogs*]

Thanks for the laugh folks, nice to see the desperate clinging to any shred of an escape route from the beating the NHL is giving the NHLPA. This or the Bain takeover would actually be horrible for the players as I could see them controlling salaries from a central location meaning players would be lucky to get half what they did during the 'gold rush' (last 10 years worth of CBA). Wake me up when the NHL and PA come to an agreement. I read the comics for laughs not the sports section.

 

[tantalum]

This leads to the conclusion that this is yet another attempt by Goody to sour the deal and dupe the players into thinking that there is a viable alternative to taking a deal Bobby doesn't like.

Here's hoping that the PA membership can see through this for the sham that it is.

The first thing I thought of as well. Goodenow and friends dragging out the same old rumours and stories of an illustrious pot of gold at the end of the rainbow if and only if they don't give into the NHL. That pot of gold wither being a great new league where owners will be falling over themselves to lose tons of money or a much better deal from the owners if only the membership puts the no-deal side back in control.

 

[GKJ]

This is never gonna work.


The NHL isn't even worth $5 billion, why would a whole new league be worth it?

 

[Marconius]

Nowhere in the article does it say the players are involved at all.

It says they've considered the plan, not orchestrated the plan.

 

[SENSible1*]

Edmonton player agent Rich Winter, whose NHL clients include Ottawa Senators goalie Dominik Hasek, has quarterbacked efforts to plan the alternative league.

.

 

[Mess]

If I had a nickel for every time I've seen you write that, I could outbid Bain.

Keep in mind this is not a what IF story .. this has a big number $5 billion and some really big, financial moguls being named ..

They will explore and exhaust all avenues on how to best spend the money should this every come to pass ..

..I don't think you are giving some NHL owners enough credit .. If someone came along and offered you your franchise fee market value , with a good return on invest.. Many would listen .. IMO ..

 

[SENSible1*]

Keep in mind this is not a what IF story .. this has a big number $5 billion and some really big, financial moguls being named ..

They will explore and exhaust all avenues on how to best spend the money should this every come to pass ..

..I don't think you are giving some NHL owners enough credit .. If someone came along and offered you your franchise fee market value , with a good return on invest.. Many would listen .. IMO ..

You just never stop...there is no money...there is no connection to "really big financial moguls" except in Rich Winter's wet dreams.

Give it up already.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The Messenger... the quintessential delusional Leafs fan, grasping at any last hope to have some form of hockey league where there is a chance for his team to finally have a shot at winning a championship.

So when are the Maple Leafs going to break off from the NHL and form their own league? What's stopping them?

Why not just buy the Stanley Cup and declare themselves the 2004-2005 Stanley Cup Champions?

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

4 quarters means 1 extra intermission for Advertising, and could mean less interruptions during play for commercial breaks.

Also better ice since it would only be used for 15 minutes instead of 20

 

[Crazy_Ike]

I can't believe there are people happy about the efforts of an agent, Rich Winter, who has done more damage to the sport of hockey than anyone not yet convicted of a criminal offense (after Bob Goodenow, of course). The guy is the epitome of everything that is wrong with professional sports. The guy responsible for first exploiting the entry level loopholes in the old CBA, among other things (and boasting about it at the time).

 

[CGG]

GC2005,

When one looks at the original article from The Star the whole issue becomes clear. From your comments I'm assuming you've only looked at the second hand TSN article.
Here are some highlights.

Notice the only direct quotes that can even remotely be considered positive are from Saskin and Winter.

Now let's look at the invlovement level of some of the prominent individuals listed.

Giuliani's only link is that the authors of the proposal chose his firm as the POTENTIAL frontman IF they ever get around to doing anything about this.
Rudy has NO personal involvement.

An unnamed source--(read: Winter talking out of his ass) throws out two prominent names with no corroboration to make it appear this has validity.

Does the article have ANY quotes from Murdoch, Giuliani, Guilaini's firm or a spokesperson for any of the above?????

A discerning reader would note the absence.

A discerning reader would also note the presence of Gary Davidson of WHA infamy and understand that this is simply the same horse painted a different colour by the NHLPA which will end up with exactly the same results.

So basically it's some kind of rebel agent teaming up with the dude who messed up the attempted WHA revival? Although I would disagree that this is all the brainchild of the NHLPA (as an actual attempt at a league OR as a pressure tactic).....

NOTHING TO SEE HERE...MOVE ALONG.

.... I couldn't agree more.

 

[mr gib]

I can't believe there are people happy about the efforts of an agent, Rich Winter, who has done more damage to the sport of hockey than anyone not yet convicted of a criminal offense (after Bob Goodenow, of course). The guy is the epitome of everything that is wrong with professional sports. The guy responsible for first exploiting the entry level loopholes in the old CBA, among other things (and boasting about it at the time).

and when theres a new cba winter'll probably do it again

 

[BigE]

Does Giuliani even know the first thing about hockey? Granted he's probably got impeccable business sense, running a city and all, but do you not need to know SOMETHING about your product in order to market it properly? I mean, is that not why the NHL is drowning in Gary Bettman's sink hole?

Too many questions with ugly answers for me.

 

[mr gib]

Does Giuliani even know the first thing about hockey? Granted he's probably got impeccable business sense, running a city and all, but do you not need to know SOMETHING about your product in order to market it properly? I mean, is that not why the NHL is drowning in Gary Bettman's sink hole?

Too many questions with ugly answers for me.

we'll he has major cred and can raise the cake - don't really matter - did bettman know anything about hockey? ...

 

[Timmy]

and when theres a new cba winter'll probably do it again

Which is why the league is so intent on Winterizing the CBA.

 

[mr gib]

Which is why the league is so intent on Winterizing the CBA.

i hear ya - wonder if they can

 

[Mess]

Does Giuliani even know the first thing about hockey? Granted he's probably got impeccable business sense, running a city and all, but do you not need to know SOMETHING about your product in order to market it properly? I mean, is that not why the NHL is drowning in Gary Bettman's sink hole?

Too many questions with ugly answers for me.

Bettman came from a Basketball background when he was made Commish ..

His growing the game to non hockey markets suggest that he was following the example of the big 3 US sports and that has lead to todays issues.

Biggest flaw is that the young kids in all US states have lots of involement in Baseball, Football and Basketball growing up .. All three are easily affordable and you just need a park or school field or playground and a ball to play .. Very few young kids based on percentages to the other 3 buy hockey equipment and rent ice, compounded even further by limited opportunities and no such things as back yard rinks or playing on frozen ponds in the deep south or california or arizona, or texas etc.

How are those same kids that did not play hockey as kids grow up to become diehard loyal fans in non-hockey markets ??

The Jamaican Bobsled team can make it to the Olympics but don't expect them to be successful against the best in the world and you are not going to see a lot of Jamaican kids taking up the sport as a result ..

 

[London Knights]

New York has improved much more post Guiliani than it did with him. The streets are kind of clean now. And the guy has some serious personality issues. Remember in the 90's when everyone hated him? You think that people will love him when his personality takes shape when he has control of a league again. He did well in the early 00's when a certain incident gave him the opportunity to make heated speeches and to be involved in many vigils, press conferences, and memorial ceremonies, but Guiliani really doesn't have that great of a reputation. Add to that his complete lack of knowledge of running a sports league (I hate Gary Bettman with a passion and I would much rather have Gary run my league than Rudy) and you have the formula for failure.

No way does it happen. Leafs wouldn't split for a major question mark even if the league could finance itself and somehow come up with 5 billion (shave Donald Trump's head for charity event?). And without the Leafs splitting you won't have a team in Toronto because they pretty much hold a monopoly on the city. So right there you lose a very large market from either the pro-Toronto side, or the "I hate Toronto and I will watch the games just to see them fail" side.

Then you still would have to buy/lease arenas in a whole bunch of cities, many who still have contracts with NHL franchises who probably have clauses limiting the type of clientel that would be allowed to play in the arenas.

Then you would have to have the player movement again taking the risk on jumping the NHL ship. Essentially if you did so, the player would most likely be looking at blacklisting themselves from the NHL, so when the splinter league collapsed a whole lot of players would be out of luck. Some, if they had the talent, would find their way back, but they would probably get the same kind of scab treatment, only from both loyal NHL players and management.

This league has even less of a shot than the WHA (which at least had a hockey guy as the lead spokesperson and could at least prop itself up as a former league even if it would never have pooled together the finances to get off the ground) of becoming a reality and it's logic is less founded than the Bain offer to purchase all 30 teams, after grossly undervaluing the net worth of several franchises. When max out your most profitable organization at 225 million when they pull in around 100 million in revenue each year something isn't adding up.

This rumour is going to last all of a weekand then it will be banished to the bottom of the tabloids where it belongs.

 

[Timmy]

i hear ya - wonder if they can

The three big issues are:


Enforcement of the cap

Dealing with with injuries against the cap

The treatment of signing bonuses at the time of the signing and in subsequent years, esp. if/when the player is injured/traded.


I would like to see 100% of the signing bonus applied towards a team's cap room in the year of signing. However, players and many owners would fight this tooth and nail, and fans and media would call it idiotic.

If the bonus is amortized over the length of the contract, does that follow a traded player and assumed by another team, or does the signing team have to keep it? If so, it would make certain players virtually untradable.

Another tactic would be an attempt to slide in "personal services" contracts by different divisions of an ownership corporation. I think there would need to be affiliate rules in place in the new CBA to prevent this.

Deferred balloon payments will also have to be banned or count against the contract no matter when it is due to be paid (ie, 10 years from now, the player gets $10m for his retirement fund).

They have to shut down the loopholes if they don't want this CBA to become a joke.

 

[BigE]

we'll he has major cred and can raise the cake - don't really matter - did bettman know anything about hockey? ...

This is exactly my point, Bettman doesn't know the game and it's suffered because of his lack of knowledge. He's not an intelligent person to begin with, never mind his hockey intelligence or obvious lack of business savvy.

Granted, as I acknowledged Giulliani's contributions to New York and business in general (although, as a non-New Yorker, I'm really not sure how much of his popularity stems for his 9/11 handling)...he needs some hockey know-how. Bettman made some gross mistakes because he didn't understand the game or it's possible markets and now we're all suffering because of it.

I don't see it happening.

Anybody care to fill me in on exactly what makes Giulliani a great candidate in their opinion?

 

[Bixby Snyder]

This is a waste of time- aint never gonna happen.

BTW I have heard Rudy is a hockey fan for what it's worth.

 

[NYIsles1*]

'

Lets take your thought process even further .. What if the big market teams are behind or a part of this venture ..What if the Leafs, NYR, Philly and Detroit and 4 of the teams in communication with Rupert Murdoch and Rudy Giliani for example .. Rather then selling out to Bain what about formulating your own super league with 10 or 12 teams??

Three of these four teams lost 60m between them. These so-called large markets could not sell hockey on Fox, ABC or Espn being showcased.

Rupert Murdoch dissolved his television merger with Dolan this year and wants no part of being associated with him or the Garden. You keep writing as if this lockout is only for Nashville and Carolina, it's for the Wings who lost almost 20m going to the second round, it's about Snider complaining he lost money after going to the conference finals, it's about Dolan's 40.9m loss and a 77m dollar team he cannot get anyone to notice because he's in the largest baseball market. It's about reported losses in Dallas, Colorado, St Louis...It's about every team and market failing to sell hockey and producing television ratings equal to bowling with an open checkbook.
The Leafs went to the second round and only made 14.1m in reported profit, Vancouver did better.

You are right people are jumping to conclusions to quick .. $5 bil buys you just about whatever you may want ..

Everything but a self-sustaining business even in what you like to call big markets which is why we have a lockout.

 

[Timmy]

This is exactly my point, Bettman doesn't know the game and it's suffered because of his lack of knowledge. He's not an intelligent person to begin with, never mind his hockey intelligence or obvious lack of business savvy.

Calling Bettman unintelligent is not an impressive way to make a point. I would also be suprised to find out that, after this long as comissioner, he has learned nothing about hockey specifically, and in his career sports in general.

This is also a case where he is the public face of the thirty owners - he is less the initiator and more the mouthpiece. And these thirty owners didn't get rich by sitting back and not taking chances (ie, expansion).

They felt that a product needed to expand its market and grow, like NASCAR migrating north. Whether or not they were right is a matter of opinion, but as owners of businesses they are going to take calculated risks in order to increase profitablility and market share.

I personally think that hockey needs to concentrate on local markets/talent/personality, and not sweat the national stuff. It is unlikely you're going to convince a guy in Seattle to watch a Philly-Tampa game at 2pm on a Saturday afternoon.

However, the owners as a group are going to continue to try new things, because it is in their nature to try to increase revenue by doing so. They have and are going to continue to make mistakes, but that's what businesses do in a drive for success.