Plans, Trades, and Automobiles: Fixing the Winged Wheel

[odin1981]

Khan is reporting it too, sadly:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/06/red_wings_in_contract_talks_wi.html

Ok I stand corrected then we are ****ed .

 

[Frk It]

He's not going take a roster place of Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, or Jurco at this point. I don't see what everyone is worried about. Sounds to me like they'll give him an opportunity to get healthy and try to make the team. I don't think he has any roster spot guaranteed if and when a contract is signed.

Hopefully. But I would have concerns with him bring called up over Mantha and Pulkkinen. And the fact that I don't even think he could help out Grand Rapids.

Really, I mean there's no benefit to this whatsoever.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I would take Booth over Cleary.

I would take a Phone Booth over Cleary.

 

[jaster]

The Wings made a verbal commitment to him to not just toss him after the season, and they're making good on what they offered. Not happy about it, and they shouldn't have made that commitment in the first place, but I don't find fault in them honoring it.

It's a deal that clearly says he stands a good shot at ending up in GR, and a number of young guys took their opportunity last season and established themselves. I think we overstate the love for Dan Cleary a bit, and that he isn't going to be gifted a spot.

So, yeah, not happy the offer was extended in the first place, but it's right we stick by it. If that's our offer, I think Cleary will look around for an NHL job first, so hopefully it's all moot.

Well said. And it's as simple as that. The Wings probably made a mistake with Cleary last year, signing him and promising him too much, but if they indeed made assurances, it's in their best interest to keep them, even if that means Cleary is still in the organization. It's too damaging to the organization to back out of them. And if he winds up in GR, it won't matter anyway. Out of sight, out of mind, and he'll probably be a good influence down there anyway.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Such BS. "Too damaging to the organization" to not sign a guy who looks like he belongs on the 4th line of a beer league team.

We live in a world where the Flyers signed two players to life time deals, and they signed for below market rate, and shipped them out almost immediately.

Nobody is going to give a **** if Dan Cleary doesn't get a shot.

Loyalty in pro sports is for chumps.

 

[jaster]

Again. There's 2 sides. From Cleary's side he was supposed to provide something too. He didn't. It changes the whole scope of the agreement. He didn't hold up his end.

Players can be bought out. Coaches can be fired. A "verbal agreement" between the Red Wings and Dan Cleary is unvoidable? You absolutely have to be kidding me.

Professional sports is an ever changing landscape. Job security doesn't exist. I can't believe this stuff to be honest.

We don't know what Cleary's side of the deal was. But I highly doubt "staying healthy," which is something he cannot fully control, was part of it. More likely, it was "work hard and continue to be a leader/set an example." And I would guess he fulfilled that. And it's not like they guaranteed him a roster spot. Simply a contract. Which they've done with multiple players on the downside of their careers in the past. He's probably going to GR.

I wish they hadn't made him promises in the first place, but they did, so now the chicken has come home to roost.

 

[Winger98]

I guess. But if someone's game falls off a cliff during that time, I hardly see how you could fault an employer for changing heart.

People give coaches multi year contracts and fire them before it expires if they are doing a bad job. I don't think Dan Cleary should be above that.

Fair enough, but I think sticking Cleary in GR is pretty close to firing him. When a coach is fired, I think there is almost a mutual positive to it, though. If the situation isn't working, and the team isn't winning, then maintaining the relationship isn't doing anyone any good. And cutting both of yourselves loose to pursue other avenues is arguably in everyone's best interests.

I can see a similar argument being made for Cleary and how we aren't winning with him, and I acknowledge that (and that I don't want him back, either, so I'm not exactly championing for the guy), but I feel a stronger pull towards the responsibilities of honoring a promise to the guy.

They also committed to Jordin Tootoo. They are buying him out. Obviously, Cleary is more beloved in the org. but I don't see how that's much different. Teams break commitments all the time. Hockey is a business, first and foremost. Yes, you have your favorites but you can't get your heart in the way of what's right for your business. Go ask Brad Richards who among many others is going to be looking for work even though his team committed to him over a long term.

I disagree that Tootoo is entirely fair comparison, though. Without knowing Tootoo I'm giving this some guess work, but I doubt he wants to play in GR. Buying him out, and allowing him to seek NHL employment elsewhere, could be doing right by him just as much as honoring the contract just to bury him in the AHL.

We've seen Babcock swing similar deals the past few years to get Commodore and Huskins into situations where they'd play more, and even Patty Eaves last year when he was bundled into the Legwand deal.

maybe it's breaking our word a bit to have demoted Tootoo as we did, but maybe that's the business side of the equation coming through. Tootoo lost his spot.

With Cleary, I still say the mistake was extending the offer in the first place. It's not a promise Holland should have thrown out there.

 

[Crymson]

I'll certainly allow that making such a promise to a guy who was coming off of two mediocre seasons and was clearly in decline, was patently idiotic. I'm angry at Holland and Babcock for extending such an unusual commitment at all, and this to a player who was not even the slightest bit integral or vital to his team. This was immensely foolish. And I agree with those who have said that Cleary's side of the commitment should have been to play effectively, something he absolutely did not do; he was given every chance by Babcock, and he failed. Period.

That said, for my own well-being I'm going to assume that this is merely a gesture in the name of integrity---believe it or not, breaking such a promise could have some negative consequence for the team with regards to future free agents (but probably not)---and have no intention, barring an absolutely dazzling performance in the preseason, of ever using him in the NHL again. I think that's a reasonable assumption.

 

[jaster]

Jordin Tootoo's real contract, that is actually legit and legally binding is about to be bought out. But Dan Clearys pinky promise with Ken Holland is unbreakable...

Oh, the irony.

That's not irony.

It would be strange if the Wings felt more obliged to honor Tootoo's contract, one that was forged by demands from both parties and is susceptible to a BO, than to a verbal agreement with Cleary, one that the Wings made of their own volition, without a demand from another party. Had there been any chance the Wings did not plan on honoring their promise, they wouldn't have made it. The same cannot be said about NHL contracts, which are regularly traded, bought out, and buried.

 

[Frk It]

Fair enough, but I think sticking Cleary in GR is pretty close to firing him. When a coach is fired, I think there is almost a mutual positive to it, though. If the situation isn't working, and the team isn't winning, then maintaining the relationship isn't doing anyone any good.
.

The last two years he's done this organization far more harm than good. I think the latter is précisely the case, and more importantly the problem, with the relationship with Cleary.

 

[Frk It]

That's not irony.

It would be strange if the Wings felt more obliged to honor Tootoo's contract, one that was forged by demands from both parties and is susceptible to a BO, than to a verbal agreement with Cleary, one that the Wings made of their own volition, without a demand from another party. Had there been any chance the Wings did not plan on honoring their promise, they wouldn't have made it. The same cannot be said about NHL contracts, which are regularly traded, bought out, and buried.

If we're making off the record, unbreakable agreements with washed up players, we need to seriously reconsider how we do business as a professional sports organization.

I mean for Lidstrom or Yzerman, Id have no issue. But Dan Cleary?

 

[jaster]

Just read that they are leaning towards buying out Tootoo in order to give him the best shot to get back into the NHL. So there goes the theory that we are mistreating Tootoo while taking care of Cleary.

 

[Frk It]

Just read that they are leaning towards buying out Tootoo in order to give him the best shot to get back into the NHL. So there goes the theory that we are mistreating Tootoo while taking care of Cleary.

That want my point at all when I said that.

 

[Winger98]

Ah. That makes more sense.

And yeah, I agree that there's nothing official.

Something official and essentially tucked away in a safe would be against the CBA, wouldn't it? I have to think such under the table deals would not be looked at favorably.

The last two years he's done this organization far more harm than good. I think the latter is précisely the case, and more importantly the problem, with the relationship with Cleary.

I wouldn't go that far. He's not been a big help, but he also hasn't been the biggest problem. The problem I see him being a poster child for is Holland collecting too many mediocre forwards. A lot of that will be rehashing a lot of stuff most of us have agreed on (less of a log jam, more upward mobility for deserving prospects, etc.).

My hope is still that nothing really comes of this. Maybe he comes to camp and can't hack it, maybe he signs on in some place like Edmonton to provide a vet to their litany of kids. Regardless, all of us are pretty much hoping he and the Wings part ways somehow.

 

[jaster]

If we're making off the record, unbreakable agreements with washed up players, we need to seriously reconsider how we do business as a professional sports organization.

I mean for Lidstrom or Yzerman, Id have no issue. But Dan Cleary?

Again, I'm with Winger98, and you, and just about everyone on that point. I wish we hadn't made a promise to him. BUT, I really don't think it's going to hurt us in any meaningful way going forward (hope I'm not wrong), so I don't see this as a very big deal.

 

[Frk It]

Again, I'm with Winger98, and you, and just about everyone on that point. I wish we hadn't made a promise to him. BUT, I really don't think it's going to hurt us in any meaningful way going forward (hope I'm not wrong), so I don't see this as a very big deal.

I hope you're right and his last year is spent down in GR harmlessly.

Babcock just makes me nervous when it comes to that.

 

[Coffee Time]

That said, for my own well-being I'm going to assume that this is merely a gesture in the name of integrity---believe it or not, breaking such a promise could have some negative consequence for the team with regards to future free agents (but probably not)---and have no intention, barring an absolutely dazzling performance in the preseason, of ever using him in the NHL again. I think that's a reasonable assumption.

Im not so sure. I believe this is a repeat of 2013. except before the draft and not in August

 

[InjuredChoker]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 54 min Näytä käännös
Friedman "the thing about SJ is, I've heard Joe Thornton does not want to move unless it's to an absolutely 5 star lock contender"

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Bringing Dan Cleary back on a 1 way contract IS unacceptable. I don't really care for the idea of him in Grand Rapids either.

 

[Stuck in Socal]

Bring back Cleary?

Did Holland not watch the LA Kings right now.

Cleary is exactly the opposite of what type of players the Kings have. He is beaten up, and weak. It doesn't look like the Red Wings are going to be competing for a cup seriously anytime soon. What a shame, Pav and Z deserve better.

I don't give a rat's ass if Cleary is sent to Grand Rapids to "earn" a spot, he is done and worthless at this point in his career. There needs to be no loyalty and he needs to pack his bags and leave Detroit. **** Ken Holland and **** Cleary.

 

[MBauer]

I think I'm gonna be sick, Dan Cleary is so done as an NHL'er, there is no way any other GM in the league would even sign Cleary at this point, but Holland has to to be loyal to old Danny boy.

I bet half of GR's roster could be more effective in the NHL then Dan Cleary.

 

[FlashyG]

In no way whatsoever do I ever want to see Cleary in a Wings jersey ever again, but I actually like the idea of him playing in Grand Rapids and mentoring prospects.

His path in the NHL makes him a great example for kids coming in who don't yet realize how hard it is to transition from juniors to professional hockey.

If he can use his history and struggles trying to earn an NHL roster spot to help some of our prospects (Mantha in particular) its well worth a cheap 2 way contract.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

we can all say we respect hollands desire to honour one form of committment over another and call it loyalty or whathaveyou, if true, it still shows our inability to move forward or to be aggressive in changing direction

if cleary is given an amateur deal where he either plays in grand rapids or helps out in detroit in another off-ice fashion then so be it, but the idea that he could be called up ahead of jurco or mantha or pulk is scray and those who think it couldnt happen are being pretty naive

 

[JackieTreehorn]

When was yalls the emperor has no clothes on moment with Ken Holland.

Mine was the Maltby and Draper signings past their past by date, it seems to get worse every year.

Guy might not be cut out for the job.

 

[detredWINgs]

My distaste for Cleary and disgust with Holland has been well documented here, but I think there's a lot of overreacting to the news that Cleary might re-sign. I'd bet this was turned into a story by the media when in reality it was probably just a meeting between the two camps about Cleary's future with the organization - and that conversation probably included as much talk about a position in the front office as it did a spot on the roster.

In reality, this is par for the course with most veterans who have been a part of the organization for roughly a decade or more.