GWT: PL Matchweek “25”

[Savant]

Saturday 12 February

Man Utd x Southampton
Brentford x Crystal Palace
Chelsea x Arsenal - postponed due to CWC
Everton x Leeds
Watford x Brighton
Norwich x Man City

Sunday 13 February

Burnley x Liverpool
Newcastle x Aston Villa
Tottenham x Wolverhampton
Leicester x West Ham

Tuesday 15 February

Man Utd x Brighton

European fixtures midweek

Click to read more...

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Moyes says Zouma is actually going to be available for Leicester after all lol. He really does not give a shit.

I'll say this, it's interesting to see this play out real time. Liverpool famously had Firmino in the side straight away after his drunk driving arrest and a few years back Jon Flanagan was straight back in training after being caught on cctv beating his girlfriend. The controversy was much more muted, but this doesn't seem to be going away. At least until the next guy does something stupid.

 

[robertmac43]

Winning often trumps punishing people for doing shitty things, unfortunately....

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Winning often trumps punishing people for doing shitty things, unfortunately....

Definitely, which is sort of what I'm getting at. The degree that Moyes has been so open about that being his reasoning I think is what is rubbing people the wrong way almost more than anything.

But at a base level, none of this really surprising when you see how more severe things have been handled. I'd have hoped they take a step back and actually evaluate how they can elevate above that, though. Like just suspend him for two games, which along with the two weeks wages would have been more than sufficient. It's not the end of the world from a competitive standpoint, even if literally no one wants to watch Issa Diop play sometimes you just need to read the damn room. Makes everyone associated with the club look bad.

 

[Savant]

Moyes says Zouma is actually going to be available for Leicester after all lol. He really does not give a shit.

I'll say this, it's interesting to see this play out real time. Liverpool famously had Firmino in the side straight away after his drunk driving arrest and a few years back Jon Flanagan was straight back in training after being caught on cctv beating his girlfriend. The controversy was much more muted, but this doesn't seem to be going away. At least until the next guy does something stupid.

I wouldn’t say it was more muted. I will say the social media coverage a decade ago was not as extensive as it is now. It’s not a contest. All of these players should not have been playing. At least Liverpool sold Flanagan off that summer.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Moyes says Zouma is actually going to be available for Leicester after all lol. He really does not give a shit.

I'll say this, it's interesting to see this play out real time. Liverpool famously had Firmino in the side straight away after his drunk driving arrest and a few years back Jon Flanagan was straight back in training after being caught on cctv beating his girlfriend. The controversy was much more muted, but this doesn't seem to be going away. At least until the next guy does something stupid.

While it seems obvious that you have kind some of a obsession regarding LFC in these cases. I would just add that Flanagan was persona non gratta after this event and he was released by the club. All fans were shocked by his action and pretty much turned evil in his homegrown city (Liverpool)

As for Firmino, if my memory serve me well, he was targeted by burglar a week prior the DUI event, was living in a hotel the time being and he was also punished by club. He also was never again in trouble with laws after that event. He never hit a women, children or animal and he never even got a red card in his whole career.

But again why Liverpool? It's not the only team in the league that had issue with legal actions toward their players. You don't even have to go that far back in time to find other example like Bissouma or Mendy or Sigurdsson.

 

[Havre]

Feels like this will permanently drift off topic soon…

Expecting another good round for Arsenal. They won’t lose and Spurs will be humiliated.

 

[Power Man]

Gundogan to lose his thick hair soon

 

[Jersey Fresh]

I wouldn’t say it was more muted. I will say the social media coverage a decade ago was not as extensive as it is now. It’s not a contest. All of these players should not have been playing. At least Liverpool sold Flanagan off that summer.

Neither incident was from a decade ago, but culturally there's definitely been a shift since, so that applies for sure.

While it seems obvious that you have kind some of a obsession regarding LFC in these cases. I would just add that Flanagan was persona non gratta after this event and he was released by the club. All fans were shocked by his action and pretty much turned evil in his homegrown city (Liverpool)

As for Firmino, if my memory serve me well, he was targeted by burglar a week prior the DUI event, was living in a hotel the time being and he was also punished by club. He also was never again in trouble with laws after that event. He never hit a women, children or animal and he never even got a red card in his whole career.

But again why Liverpool? It's not the only team in the league that had issue with legal actions toward their players. You don't even have to go that far back in time to find other example like Bissouma or Mendy or Sigurdsson.

I'm just going to chalk up your defensiveness to a general sensitivity to how these were handled by your club. Of course it's not the only club, that's actually the point being made. If you've been around recently, and I assume you have given you're regular, you'd have seen I've spilled plenty of ink on the Bissouma parallel. The other two players you mentioned aren't really relevant, since the topic really has nothing to do with the players but instead how clubs handle these cases. In both of the other cases, the players were exiled/suspended immediately (pretty sure that's the case with Mendy, definitely the case with Sigurdsson).

Your justifications are very odd to me. Like what does Firmino living in a hotel and never getting a red card possibly have to do with drunk driving? And in Flanagan's case, they stood by him until they didn't. Like I said, much more severe case and he was in training that week.

The point, or really observation more than anything, I'm making is pretty simple - I've been surprised at two things: the degree to which John Q. Internet is surprised/shocked that Zouma hasn't been dropped, especially as there are recent real-world examples that reinforce this (see: Liverpool, Yves Bissouma). And as an extension of that, many of these incidents have been on the much more severe end of the spectrum (see: Flanagan, Firmino, Bissouma).

Note on that last sentence, because I know this board can get very touchy about value judgments, that's not a minimization of the psychopathic nature of the Zouma case. But I think objective reason would say violence against women and drunk driving are worse criminal acts. I guess I personally have been surprised at the degree to which animals are a third-rail issue.

As a general comment, I assume it's a UK law or maybe collective bargaining issue as to why the PL itself can't impose a sanction? In the NHL obviously, it was the league imposing a suspension on Evander Kane for example. I think the decision should just be taken out of the club's hands entirely. Let the league make its assessment, especially in a case like this where there's video and it can't get bogged down in due process arguments.

 

[luiginb]

I have no problem with how Moyes is handling this, if he decides to drop Zouma and they start losing games (because he's probably their best defender let's be honest), it's his head on the line. My beef is with how West Ham as a club are dealing with this. It shouldn't be Moyes' call to make, he's there to win games.

 

[Savant]

Neither incident was from a decade ago, but culturally there's definitely been a shift since, so that applies for sure.

I'm just going to chalk up your defensiveness to a general sensitivity to how these were handled by your club. Of course it's not the only club, that's actually the point being made. If you've been around recently, and I assume you have given you're regular, you'd have seen I've spilled plenty of ink on the Bissouma parallel. The other two players you mentioned aren't really relevant, since the topic really has nothing to do with the players but instead how clubs handle these cases. In both of the other cases, the players were exiled/suspended immediately (pretty sure that's the case with Mendy, definitely the case with Sigurdsson).

Your justifications are very odd to me. Like what does Firmino living in a hotel and never getting a red card possibly have to do with drunk driving? And in Flanagan's case, they stood by him until they didn't. Like I said, much more severe case and he was in training that week.

The point, or really observation more than anything, I'm making is pretty simple - I've been surprised at two things: the degree to which John Q. Internet is surprised/shocked that Zouma hasn't been dropped, especially as there are recent real-world examples that reinforce this (see: Liverpool, Yves Bissouma). And as an extension of that, many of these incidents have been on the much more severe end of the spectrum (see: Flanagan, Firmino, Bissouma).

Note on that last sentence, because I know this board can get very touchy about value judgments, that's not a minimization of the psychopathic nature of the Zouma case. But I think objective reason would say violence against women and drunk driving are worse criminal acts. I guess I personally have been surprised at the degree to which animals are a third-rail issue.

As a general comment, I assume it's a UK law or maybe collective bargaining issue as to why the PL itself can't impose a sanction? In the NHL obviously, it was the league imposing a suspension on Evander Kane for example. I think the decision should just be taken out of the club's hands entirely. Let the league make its assessment, especially in a case like this where there's video and it can't get bogged down in due process arguments.

Yeah I mean suspend them all. Marcos Alonso killled someone and he is still playing. Ronaldo is a rapist but he has too many social media followers so he is Teflon. I agree with you that it should be taken out of the clubs hands. Not being defensive at all. When I said at least Flanagan was sold, I’m being literally. That was the minimum that could have been done and it was…something I did have my dates off on that though. Not quite a decade but still no in this current era of social media either, which you picked up on.

Clubs cannot be trusted to get these right though either way. There is not a whole lot of incentive for them to do so. What I don’t want to get dragged into is saying what player x did was worse than what player y did. It’s all bad.

 

[gary69]

Premier League isn't government and the clubs aren't franchises, so the league doesn't really have authority over clubs and players on non-football matters, even if they are criminal. Of course they could take action regardless of that, but they would be in legal trouble for that. Clubs have much more influence on players, as they are employers, depending on the contract between the club and the player.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Yeah I mean suspend them all. Marcos Alonso killled someone and he is still playing. Ronaldo is a rapist but he has too many social media followers so he is Teflon. I agree with you that it should be taken out of the clubs hands. Not being defensive at all. When I said at least Flanagan was sold, I’m being literally. That was the minimum that could have been done and it was…something I did have my dates off on that though. Not quite a decade but still no in this current era of social media either, which you picked up on.

Clubs cannot be trusted to get these right though either way. There is not a whole lot of incentive for them to do so. What I don’t want to get dragged into is saying what player x did was worse than what player y did. It’s all bad.

The "defensiveness" thing was in reference to the accusation about Liverpool being an "obsession", there was nothing at all about your comment that came across as defensive. We agree with each other pretty much.

I understand why it's an uncomfortable thing to talk about scale, but I think we (the societal "we") would be much better off if we were able to soberly have those conversations. I totally get why you wouldn't want to have that here specifically because that's just a grenade and race to the bottom for no reason, but I hate how quickly perspective is lost when we all bad things are treated as a single shade. Anyway, that's a peeve of mine that we don't need to dig into here.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Premier League isn't government and the clubs aren't franchises, so the league doesn't really have authority over clubs and players on non-football matters, even if they are criminal. Of course they could take action regardless of that, but they would be in legal trouble for that. Clubs have much more influence on players, as they are employers, depending on the contract between the club and the player.

Makes sense.

 

[Brunkmeister]

How hard can it be to post in the right thread?

 

[Venkman]

United should have 3, Sancho and Ronaldo had great chances. Southampton could have had a couple themselves. Open game.

 

[Brunkmeister]

United can't afford to fall behind now. In march they have City, Spurs and Liverpool.

 

[Jussi]

Ffs, Dalot...

 

[Chimaera]

80 million pound turnstile

 

[Juve]

Ronaldo 100% deserves this for leaving in a dick way.

 

[Venkman]

United had enough chances again. This season is a waste of time.

Southampton were very good, could have won it.

 

[Blender]

Good to see Eriksen back with a team again, even if not playing yet.

 

[Brunkmeister]

Good to see Eriksen back with a team again, even if not playing yet.

He will probably play next weekend and score the winning goal. It's written in the stars.

 

[PeteWorrell]

At least United is no longer getting spanked like at the end of Ole's tenure. It was always obvious that the team is just poorly built and has been for years now and there is only so much the manager can do.

 

[Jussi]

The xG Philosophy@xGPhilosophy
Man Utd (2.53) 1-1 (0.71) Southampton

Understat
Man Utd 2.99 - 0.68 Southampton

Can't finish right now.