Speculation: PK Subban - Potentially Best Defenseman in Habs history?

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Not when they were 24. At least grasp the perhaps, one day, ideal.

Um, the post I replied to had nothing to do with "by age 24" - though Niedermayer was a post season all-star already at that age and had pretty much the same number of playoff points, btw.

PK Subban is a great player. His skillset, however, is in no way unique to history, nor is the way he plays the game revolutionary on any level. His personality and approach to life, though... certainly unique (and even "refreshing"). No hockey bonus points for those.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Ignorance of some people is funny.

Irony of this post - also funny. Kudos on the thread spam, though.

 

[habscup*]

Irony of this post - also funny. Kudos on the thread spam, though.

Subban, playoff performer, Norris trophy, 2 times already went to the 3rd round, all before 25 years old. Irony or not, the man is a beast and he's just gonna get better. Either back him up, or let us fans do our job.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Subban, playoff performer, Norris trophy, 2 times already went to the 3rd round, all before 25 years old. Irony or not, the man is a beast and he's just gonna get better. Either back him up, or let us fans do our job.

Yeah, because calling out the ridiculousness in this thread involving comparisons to some of the best defensemen to ever play the game = "not backing him up"...

Dude, just give up the crusade. You're 21 posts into this (which is amusing enough) and still getting no traction. We get it. You like PK Subban more than any other defenseman you haven't seen before.

 

[habscup*]

Yeah, because calling out the ridiculousness in this thread involving comparisons to some of the best defensemen to ever play the game = "not backing him up"...

Dude, just give up the crusade. You're 21 posts into this (which is amusing enough) and still getting no traction. We get it. You like PK Subban more than any other defenseman you haven't seen before.

What is ridiculous about thinking Subban can be one of the top D in habs history after he's done? He still has 15 years of hockey in him, think about that. The kid just turned 25. What is ridiculous about calling him a top 5 d? Please, do tell.

And no, I liked Larry Robinson more.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

What is ridiculous about thinking Subban can be one of the top D in habs history after he's done? He still has 15 years of hockey in him, think about that. The kid just turned 25. What is ridiculous about calling him a top 5 d? Please, do tell.

And no, I liked Larry Robinson more.

What's ridiculous about trying to distill anything I've commented on so far down to that bolded sentence? Everything. He has done nothing so far to deserve more credit than those who achieved the same (or more) "by his age" in the past of our organization - let alone the league.

 

[habscup*]

What's ridiculous about trying to distill anything I've commented on so far down to that bolded sentence? Everything. He has done nothing so far to deserve more credit than those who achieved the same (or more) "by his age" in the past of our organization - let alone the league.

I think its best that you admit that Subban has a chance to become one of the top D in habs history and we can move on from this.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I think its best that you admit that Subban has a chance to become one of the top D in habs history and we can move on from this.

that'

 

[ECWHSWI]

I think its best that you admit that Subban has a chance to become one of the top D in habs history and we can move on from this.

that's it ? all these posts and it comes down to this ?

come on now, the kid has 3 and a half season under his belt, time to take a deep breath.

 

[Brainiac]

Haaaa, kids these days and their ADHD.

Best of the year = Best since last week
Best in recent years = Best since halfway last year
Best in history = Best in the last 2-3 years

 

[Mrb1p]

Doug Harvey and Larry Robinson are giving a good case both for #2 in league history, no freaking way does Subban beat that.

He hasn't even surpassed Markov yet.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Some of the things PK does, I've never seen. The guys you mentioned were amazing, there's no doubt, but with exercise science having developed so much over the past decades, we're seeing things we never saw before. Guys are a lot more agile and fit, that's why I don't like to compare eras. A lot of the good goalies back then couldn't keep up with some of the back ups of today. They let goals in that you would absolutely rip this generation of goalies for letting in.

I think being dominant in today's NHL is a lot more impressive than doing in back in the eras where players smoked during periods.

At the same time though, every hour lost in the gym or on a strict training routine is an hour lost at the rink/frozen pond etc. Players are better physically, no doubt that, but I think some of the creativity is gone.

Not only are players spending countless hours at the gym now they are forced into strict systems from a young age. The likeliness that we ever see another Lemieux or Gretzky are very slim imho.

 

[DAChampion]

If Gretzky were to come up in today's NHL he would suffer a few concussions and hand injuries by the time he was 25 and thus certainly never score 92 goals in a season.

 

[rico320023]

not yet but could be time will tell ,he has a lot of guys to pass first .

 

[Scintillating10]

Not today based on accomplishments yet (he's still early in his career, obviously).

But do you believe that 10-15 years from now, assuming PK continues being as good as he's been and stays with the Habs, he will be looked at as the best d-man in Habs history?

If projecting so far in the future is too hard (whose to say he doesn't start sucking and retire in a yr or get injured after all), do you feel at least as though today, he is already the most *talented* d-man in habs history, or the one with most potential?

Personally, I strongly, strongly believe he is. But I will admit that I am young, in my lower 30s, so didn't witness first hand some of the older great teams plays. Nonetheless, judging solely by stats and my perception of some of these guys and what i've heard, I believe Subban has the potential to surpass them all.

Thoughts?

Not even close

 

[habsfanatics*]

Oh really? Norris trophy, playoff performer, he sucks he should be a minor leaguer. Ignorance of some people is funny.

Where did he say he was minor leaguer. Reading comprehension seems to be a struggle for you. He said in his post he said Subban is good. How you got he sucks and should be a minor leaguer out of that, I'll never know.

IMO, Subban's got top 1% talent, but he lacks in hockey sense a bit, he's still very very very good, but he's not the best in the league imo. He's one of the best, but his lack of hocey sense will prevent hi from ever being in the same tier as guys like Orr or even Coffey IMO.

 

[Vi Nc E x13x]

Where did he say he was minor leaguer. Reading comprehension seems to be a struggle for you. He said in his post he said Subban is good. How you got he sucks and should be a minor leaguer out of that, I'll never know.

IMO, Subban's got top 1% talent, but he lacks in hockey sense a bit, he's still very very very good, but he's not the best in the league imo. He's one of the best, but his lack of hocey sense will prevent hi from ever being in the same tier as guys like Orr or even Coffey IMO.

Out of all the best Dman you use a guy who couldnt play in his own end

 

[habsfanatics*]

If Gretzky were to come up in today's NHL he would suffer a few concussions and hand injuries by the time he was 25 and thus certainly never score 92 goals in a season.

Sure he would, the same thing was said about the scrawny player in 1979. You're right about him not scoring 92 goals, he wouldn't, but he'd be capable of putting up 100 assists every season along with 40 goals.

People like you who say these things seem to think humans evolve at much greater rate than they actually do. Gretzky would still be winning uncontested Art Ross trophies every season without much threat at all in his prime.

This is a guy who outscored everyone, all of the time, best vs best tournaments, much like his NHL career, he beats his closest opposition with his assists alone, Gretzky would still be far and away the best player today AINEC.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Out of all the best Dman you use a guy who couldnt play in his own end

Coffey's transition game was really unrivaled, and he was pretty underated defensively too. When chips were down, come playoff time, Coffey could paly positional defense very well. The run and gun Oilers weren't a dynasty based on their defensive game though, Coffey played the game the Oilers played, but during Canada Cups/Playoffs etc, Coffey more than held his own in his own end.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Doug Harvey and Larry Robinson are giving a good case both for #2 in league history, no freaking way does Subban beat that.

He hasn't even surpassed Markov yet.

Larry Robinson was great, you'd have a hard time justifying top 10 though, number 2, he's not in the conversation at all.

 

[highstick14*]

If Gretzky were to come up in today's NHL he would suffer a few concussions and hand injuries by the time he was 25 and thus certainly never score 92 goals in a season.

Not true. You have to put things in perspective.


If Gretzky were born in the same era as Crosby, he would have the same conditioning and diet as everyone else. He'd have the same equipment as everyone else.

Gretzky possessed the average size of hockey players and humans in his era, the same applies to Crosby with regards to today's era, his era. Physically speaking, they're not smaller than the average nor bigger than the average, but just average.

What separates the greats from the rest, is some luck, but mostly intelligence. These guys see the game at a much higher intellect than the rest, and they are able to calibrate their hand-eye coordination and physical motor skills at much higher level than the average player. We see this in every sport. Yes physical size and strength is sometimes responsible, but even guys like Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan, were of average size in comparison to their other counter-parts. The only player of recent memory, of any sport, that gained a clear cut advantage over his competition due to his size and inherited physical genes, is Lebron James.

But to make my point, Gretzky would still be Gretzky in today's NHL. He found a way back then, and he'd find a way today.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

If Gretzky were to come up in today's NHL he would suffer a few concussions and hand injuries by the time he was 25 and thus certainly never score 92 goals in a season.

Orr led the NHL in scoring one season and performed other remarkable feats that no Hab Dman has ever matched and that none ever will. He amassed 915 points in 657 regular season games and 92 points in 74 playoff games. The noobies who compare Subban to Orr are naive. If I were building an expansion team from scratch and had a choice of Orr or Subban + Markov I'd take Orr. Would I be tempted otherwise? No, because I'd realize that in the same draft or the following two drafts I'd probably be able to pick some Dman who could complement him reasonably well.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Out of all the best Dman you use a guy who couldnt play in his own end

at the age Subban is right now, Coffey not only had a Norris year (that he won) but was also having his second 120+ points season...

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I think its best that you admit that Subban has a chance to become one of the top D in habs history and we can move on from this.

I've never argued against this. It was all your other BS that we've been trying to sift through.

 

[habscup*]

at the age Subban is right now, Coffey not only had a Norris year (that he won) but was also having his second 120+ points season...

Playing on the best offensive team of all time in the most wide open scoring time certainly didnt help.