Speculation: PK Subban - Potentially Best Defenseman in Habs history?

[highstick14*]

Vlasic, Bowmeester>Subban, Nash>St Louis, yes or no?

Nash is not better than St. Louis. I'll grant you that, and I think it was foolish that Nash was selected over a guy like Giroux.

But Vlasic and Bouwmeester are much better in their own end, which is why they were selected, and hence why they won Gold. You can't argue with the result.

Bouwmeester also makes a better first pass. Vlasic is arguably the best defensive defenseman in the league, he rarely makes a mistake.

Like a previous poster said, objective is the keyword when discussing a player, even if that player plays for your favourite team. Just 'cause he's a Hab, doesn't mean he's better than everyone else. None of you would be fawning over Subban if he wore a Leaf's or Bruins' jersey. Subban is a Top 10 D-man in the league, let's be fortunate we have him, but let's not boost his ranking in history or current times, just 'cause he's a Hab.

 

[groovejuice]

Oh boy. Thats like comparing Plekanec and Gretzky you know...

No it's not. You're comparison is absurd.

But it's also horribly premature. Subban has physical qualities that already eclipse Orr.

But one needs the whole package, and he's years away from that, if ever.

Let's be optimistic and hope. He's our best D in 20 years, and has by far the most upside since Chelios.

I'm feelin' good.

 

[habscup*]

Nash is not better than St. Louis. I'll grant you that, and I think it was foolish that Nash was selected over a guy like Giroux.

But Vlasic and Bouwmeester are much better in their own end, which is why they were selected, and hence why they won Gold. You can't argue with the result.

Bouwmeester also makes a better first pass. Vlasic is arguably the best defensive defenseman in the league, he rarely makes a mistake.

Like a previous poster said, objective is the keyword when discussing a player, even if that player plays for your favourite team. Just 'cause he's a Hab, doesn't mean he's better than everyone else. None of you would be fawning over Subban if he wore a Leaf's or Bruins' jersey. Subban is a Top 10 D-man in the league, let's be fortunate we have him, but let's not boost his ranking in history or current times, just 'cause he's a Hab.

Bowmeester and Vlasic much better in their own end than Subban? Subban was amazing defensively (and offensively) against the bruins this year, him and Carey and some timely goals were the reason we eliminated them. Subban>>>>>>Vlasic and Bowmeester.

By the way, Subban's first pass is better than Bowmeester's, this is not 2005 anymore. Watch Bowmeester play more, you'll see.

P.S. Why do you assume the team would've lost had Subban played? Didn't they win the only game he played?

Finally, Subban is a top 5 dmen or at worse top 6, not top 10. Sorry but other than Weber, Doughty, Keith, Suter, I don't see anyone I would take over Subban, and he's younger than all those players.

Also what makes your opinion more objective than mine? Just because I think highly of one of our only good players? I'm not a homer at all, I think the rest of the team apart from Plekanec, the two Gally's,Max pac, Markov and Subban, are total crap.

 

[highstick14*]

Bowmeester and Vlasic much better in their own end than Subban? Subban was amazing defensively (and offensively) against the bruins this year, him and Carey and some timely goals were the reason we eliminated them. Subban>>>>>>Vlasic and Bowmeester.

By the way, Subban's first pass is better than Bowmeester's, this is not 2005 anymore. Watch Bowmeester play more, you'll see.

P.S. Why do you assume the team would've lost had Subban played? Didn't they win the only game he played?

Finally, Subban is a top 5 dmen or at worse top 6, not top 10. Sorry but other than Weber, Doughty, Keith, Suter, I don't see anyone I would take over Subban, and he's younger than all those players.

Also what makes your opinion more objective than mine? Just because I think highly of one of our only good players? I'm not a homer at all, I think the rest of the team apart from Plekanec, the two Gally's, Markov and Subban, are total crap.

Bobby Orr was great but Subban will blow him out of the water soon.

You're the same fellow who said Subban will blow Orr out of the water. Nah, you're definitely not a homer at all.

Really? Patches is crap too? The guy who scored 39 goals and finished 4th in goal scoring last year is crap?!

Lmao, you really have zero credibility. First you say Subban would blow Orr out of the water, then you say Patches is crap. Lmao!

 

[habscup*]

Defensively? Certainly not. Chelios was a wall and was feared by his opponents and could fight with the toughest.
Very rarely was he doing an error and most of the time, it was because the opponents were paying a dear price.

Offensively, Chelios had 64 points at his first full season in 74 games at 22 years old. Later in his career, Chelios had seasons of 56, 60, 61, 64, 72, 73 and 73 points.
In his first five seasons (12 games in 1983-84) Chelios had 205 points in 269 games. PK just did 167 in 284 games.
So Chelios is significantly better.

He has three Norris, the Stanley Cup and 11 NHL all star (5 season as a First all-star team). He would probably have won one or two more but there was a guy in Edmonton (Coffey) who was not as good but was playing with a certain number 99 and he also had very good competition with Ray Bourque.

Off the ice, well PK is certainly less a trouble maker than Chelios who was partying all the time (not to mention ladies including the wife of RC).

Maybe in 10 years you can say the name of Subban, Chelios and Robinson in the same sentence.

As for Doug Harvey, only Bobby Orr can be compared to him.
So before mentioning their name, we need to see PK dominate all other d-men in the league for at least 5-8 years a la Lidstrom.
Meanwhile, as we say in Québec: "ya des croutes a manger".


Well I did too...

Great, now compare gpg averages leaguewide from those seasons to the seasons in Subban's time. Go.

 

[Lafontaine]

Not today based on accomplishments yet (he's still early in his career, obviously).

But do you believe that 10-15 years from now, assuming PK continues being as good as he's been and stays with the Habs, he will be looked at as the best d-man in Habs history?

If projecting so far in the future is too hard (whose to say he doesn't start sucking and retire in a yr or get injured after all), do you feel at least as though today, he is already the most *talented* d-man in habs history, or the one with most potential?

Personally, I strongly, strongly believe he is. But I will admit that I am young, in my lower 30s, so didn't witness first hand some of the older great teams plays. Nonetheless, judging solely by stats and my perception of some of these guys and what i've heard, I believe Subban has the potential to surpass them all.

Thoughts?

Well, as much as I'm sure you'll get flamed for this question, I'm going to go ahead and say yes, probably. Not because Subban is even a great, great defenseman by today's standards, but simply because I believe that essentially any athlete playing earlier than some time in the mid-80s would pale in comparison to pretty much anyone playing in the modern game today.

The player pool was vastly smaller, competition much weaker, training and health routines infinitely less refined. There is no reason, athletically and skill wise, that Subban wouldn't be considered an equal to Bobby Orr if he was playing in the 70s.

He has yet to reach the achievements of a modern era player such as Chelios, and Robinson was around during the emergence of the modern athlete, so potentially he isn't the best yet. 10 more years in a Habs jersey, another Norris at some stage, along with one or two more runs at the cup and yah, he could be the best.

 

[habscup*]

You're the same fellow who said Subban will blow Orr out of the water. You're right, you're definitely more objective than biased. Nah, you're definitely not a homer at all.

Can you read? I said i was sarcastic. If anybody really believed I meant that, then their sarcasm detector is off.

 

[highstick14*]

Can you read? I said i was sarcastic. If anybody really believed I meant that, then their sarcasm detector is off.

No where in your original comment did you say you were sarcastic, or at the very least, leave us with a hint. Secondly, everyone knows that you're just backtracking to save face.

The truth came out in the end when you said hes a cheap shot artist. Obviously you have a blind hate for him and thats fine, but please keep your opinions to yourself. Babcock chose bowmeester and vlasic ovrr subban too, guess theyre better than him too? Oh and rick nash> marty st louis?

Only one who should keep their opinions to themselves is you. You're embarrassing the rest of us rational Habs fans.

 

[habscup*]

Absolutely... I love Subban but this board has gone full Pejorative Slur. I mean there is a reason why he wasn't even the most used Habs D this season... and last one.

If someone should be considered as a top 5 Habs defenseman, it's the 35 years old guy who led the Habs ONCE AGAIN in ice time.

What a great choice it was by Therrien overworking Markov, really helped him in the Rangers series didnt it? Genius.

Subban is a top 5 d in the league and the fact he wasnt the most used D tells you all you need to know about Therrien's coaching in the season.

 

[habscup*]

No where in your original comment did you say you were sarcastic, or at the very least, leave us with a hint. Secondly, everyone knows that you're just backtracking to save face.

Just answer all the points I made, or I'm done here. Also I don't need to backtrack, look at the damn message. With what I've seen from Subban, I expect him to BLOW Bobby Orr out of the water soon. If you can't tell the sarcasm, then I have nothing to tell you.

 

[highstick14*]

What a great choice it was by Therrien overworking Markov, really helped him in the Rangers series didnt it? Genius.

Subban is a top 5 d in the league and the fact he wasnt the most used D tells you all you need to know about Therrien's coaching in the season.

Except, those coaching decisions that were taking on by JJ Daigneault (not Therrien), are what got us so deep in the playoffs. No one expected the Habs to make it to the ECF.

 

[habscup*]

No where in your original comment did you say you were sarcastic, or at the very least, leave us with a hint. Secondly, everyone knows that you're just backtracking to save face.



Only one who should keep their opinions to themselves is you. You're embarrassing the rest of us rational Habs fans.

Subban is a top 5 d in the league, as he was voted on the main board, as he is talked about in the media, and as his norris and point finishes indicate, plus a dominant playoff performer. You're not more rational than I am, I have stats and trophies to support my claims, while you have nothing.

 

[habscup*]

Except, those coaching decisions that were taking on by JJ Daigneault (not Therrien), are what got us so deep in the playoffs. No one expected the Habs to make it to the ECF.

I think Subban and Price playing like a conn smythe candidate are what got us to the ECF, plus some timely goals and heroic shot blocking by a few guys. Nothing to do with the play in the regular season. By the way, the east was wide open this year, so yes anybody could've made it to the ECF, as evidenced by the fact the Habs and Rags made it.

 

[highstick14*]

Bowmeester and Vlasic much better in their own end than Subban? Subban was amazing defensively (and offensively) against the bruins this year, him and Carey and some timely goals were the reason we eliminated them. Subban>>>>>>Vlasic and Bowmeester.

P.S. Why do you assume the team would've lost had Subban played? Didn't they win the only game he played?

Finally, Subban is a top 5 dmen or at worse top 6, not top 10. Sorry but other than Weber, Doughty, Keith, Suter, I don't see anyone I would take over Subban, and he's younger than all those players.

TC brain trust thought Vlasic and Bouwmeester were better than Subban, in their defensive zone, and they were right, they got us Gold. I'm pretty sure a team of professional GMs and Coaches knows better than a Habs fan.

I'll argue that Subban is way ahead of both in regards to offensive zone, but he's not better than Pietrangelo, Doughty, or Weber, who were all selected for offensive and defensive purposes. Team Canada wanted balance, and that's why they chose those specific players.

 

[habscup*]

TC brain trust thought Vlasic and Bouwmeester were better than Subban, in their defensive zone, and they were right, they got us Gold. I'm pretty sure a team of professional GMs and Coaches knows better than a Habs fan.

I'll argue that Subban is way ahead of both in regards to offensive zone, but he's not better than Pietrangelo, Doughty, or Weber, who were all selected for offensive and defensive purposes. Team Canada wanted balance, and that's why they chose those specific players.

Ok so if Subban played, Canada wouldn't have won? Ridiculous. P.S. Subban is better than Pietrangelo. Especially in big games.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Subban is so overrated by people on this board........he is good but not great.

 

[habscup*]

Subban is so overrated by people on this board........he is good but not great.

Oh really? Norris trophy, playoff performer, he sucks he should be a minor leaguer. Ignorance of some people is funny.

 

[Nicko999]

What a great choice it was by Therrien overworking Markov, really helped him in the Rangers series didnt it? Genius.

Subban is a top 5 d in the league and the fact he wasnt the most used D tells you all you need to know about Therrien's coaching in the season.

Did anyone see Subban do something good in the Rangers series? No one? Me neither.
In fact, Markov outplayed and outproduced him (5 pts vs 2 pts) in the NY series.

You lost all credibility when you compared Subban to Orr, please stop.

I'm not criticizing him, but with threads like this PK he will become the most overrated player in hockey history.

 

[25get]

Not when they were 24. At least grasp the perhaps, one day, ideal.

There are those who pathologically over rate players and those who pathologically under rate players.

Usually those two groups intersect
geometrically close to 100%. Some players are emotionally polarizing. And some fans can't love if they can't hate equally.

I figure 70% of this board is generally fair minded. The rest are intellectually handicapped by bias, or ignorance.

That's okay. It's the extremists that generally get the pot really boiling.

Makes for more volatile and emotional threads. Those are often the most interesting, but never the most genteel.

So you are in the minority?

 

[25get]

Did anyone see Subban do something good in the Rangers series? No one? Me neither.
In fact, Markov outplayed and outproduced him (5 pts vs 2 pts) in the NY series.

You lost all credibility when you compared Subban to Orr, please stop.

I'm not criticizing him, but with threads like this PK he will become the most overrated player in hockey history.

While he was not alone, PK was not very good against the NYR.
He was not alone but he certainly did not play like a 10M$ player...

He gave us a 5M$ performance against the Rangers.
But I do remember Ryan McDonagh!

 

[25get]

Oh really? Norris trophy, playoff performer, he sucks he should be a minor leaguer. Ignorance of some people is funny.

Of course, he is better than Bobby Orr, Larry Robinson, Doug Harvey, Guy Lapointe, Chris Chelios.

At this point, Guy Lapointe has done more than PK...

He is among the best d-men in NHL (who talked about a minor leaguer besides you... Pleass supply the league).
Now he is nowhere near Lidstrom.
And Doughty, Weber, Keith and Suter are way better.

Let's agree that he is now better than Chara who is 38 years old.
Will be much better in offence than Chara in the next 10 years.
May even be better than Markov when he was at his best.

Top-10: yes.
You really think PK will get 5+ Norris?

 

[habscup*]

Of course, he is better than Bobby Orr, Larry Robinson, Doug Harvey, Guy Lapointe, Chris Chelios.

At this point, Guy Lapointe has done more than PK...

He is among the best d-men in NHL (who talked about a minor leaguer besides you... Pleass supply the league).
Now he is nowhere near Lidstrom.
And Doughty, Weber, Keith and Suter are way better.

Let's agree that he is now better than Chara who is 38 years old.
Will be much better in offence than Chara in the next 10 years.
May even be better than Markov when he was at his best.

Top-10: yes.
You really think PK will get 5+ Norris?

He will have a better career than Chelios. Doughty, Keith, Suter and Weber are not way better. On any given year, either can win the norris. No I don't think he will win 5+ Norris in his career, but I do think 3 is likely.

 

[habscup*]

While he was not alone, PK was not very good against the NYR.
He was not alone but he certainly did not play like a 10M$ player...

He gave us a 5M$ performance against the Rangers.
But I do remember Ryan McDonagh!

Subban was basically the only dman doing anything in the rangers series. He created so many chances in game 2 which Lundqvist stole, breakaways, end to end rushes. Game 3 we won in overtime because Subban tied it with a few minutes to go in the game, huge goal. Emelin, Gorges, etc were all terrible, I won't blame the guy who dominated tampa and boston for not dominating yet another team.

 

[habscup*]

So you are in the minority?

You should enjoy the special talent in Subban and Price that our team has right now. Your hockey viewing must really suck.

 

[habscup*]

Did anyone see Subban do something good in the Rangers series? No one? Me neither.
In fact, Markov outplayed and outproduced him (5 pts vs 2 pts) in the NY series.

You lost all credibility when you compared Subban to Orr, please stop.

I'm not criticizing him, but with threads like this PK he will become the most overrated player in hockey history.

Markov did not outplay Subban in the NY series. He was so slow, turnover after turnover, cost goals left and right. Subban did not score as much but he did not cost as much either.

P.S. I should've thought people had no sarcasm on these boards, of course saying Subban will blow Orr out of the water soon (my exact words) was a sarcastic comment. I should've known though.