Phoenix CXXX: Sock it to ME

[TheLegend]

Interesting numbers. One of the problems thats faced this club (along with the Panthers under Yormark & a few others) is promotional over-kill. People become accustomed to & expect it. Expect to receive gift/premium, free or cheap food/drink with purchase including discount on face-value of the tickets themselves. So what was originally designed as a sort of "introductory offer" in hoping to reel in some casuals, that they'd then become hooked on the game hasnt worked that way at all and instead for roughly 30-45%% of their inventory at GRA became the norm. Promo's you'd only offer for soft or unattractive opponents.

This quagmire, box theyve found themselves in is certainly unenviable & speaks to a number of systemic problems they & other clubs face. Unfortunately magnified in Arizona as a result of what been going on really since they moved there in 96, to Glendale in 04, hyper-magnified, as in right under the microscope since 2009. They need to break out of the cell thats been created, that theyve inherited. The only way that happens is with an improved on-ice product, winning. That takes time. Time not a luxury these guys have so ya, heavy promo. Perfectly understandable, no criticism from me on that score. Now, "does it move the needle"? Ya, I think so. It maintains what theyve got while providing some incentive to the casuals. You dont have to look far to see what happens when things like this are completely removed with attendance then completely cratering. Florida. Transition post Yormark however you had different fundamentals, ownership willing & able to eat the losses short & mid range. Arizona, no, not a luxury they have.

The single most destructive promotion to Florida and Arizona were the years they gave away tons of free tickets. Thinking they could seduce new fans who'd come watch a game on the house and then want to come back for more by buying a ticket to the next one. They ended up alienating their STH bases.

Thank goodness both teams got rid of that practice years ago.

 

[TheLegend]

There is no business tread that tracks how other teams 'stack up' but let's take their opponent tonight...the Boston Bruins...they have five promotions this year...probably not fair...

How about some of their conference opponents...Vegas - zero (but I believe their home opener had T-shirts over all of the seats), Calgary - 17, Anaheim - 22, San Jose - 15...

However, here is the Coyotes breakdown by year of promotions...

2013/14 - 38 out of 41 games
2014/15 - 35 out of 41 games
2015/16 - 37 out of 41 games
2016/17 - 39 out of 41 games
2017/18 - 36 out of 41 games

Yet...with almost 90% of the games having promotions...for the last four years...their average attendance still hovers around the 13,391 range or 78% capacity...

Does not seem to be moving the needle much...

But a new arena...in the right location...definitely will...

Those numbers are virtually useless.

They don't show what kinds of giveaways, or food specials, or if they were in combination of any one game. Or if it was just simply a theme night

Can't just toss a bunch of general numbers around and go "Hmmmmm... doesn't look like much."

 

[Llama19]

 

[Mightygoose]

A tough one last night for sure. Perhaps Jake can preach to himself and say it's not about progress, it's about the process.

Announced attendance 14,810 last night. Last season on an Saturday night near the beginong of the season vs. the Bruins they drew 16,531 so it can't be about the progress on that fron either. Hope they can get a few Ws soon it can be another step back early.

 

[Melrose Munch]

frankly, their attendance is better then carolina, and some of the canadian teams right now.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

If any of you guys get your schadenfreude from poor attendance, you're going to love the next month or two unless the Coyotes discover how to win a game at some point.

 

[Mightygoose]

I find it ironic at times that discussions about attendance seems to be taboo on a business of hockey forum.

In fairness I'll elaborate my thoughts it's less about good market/bad market but about consumer confidence. After the arena deal at ASU and the relevant bill died in conjunction with Bettman's comments that the 'location is not viable' and the ownership change. How does the team sell this season and how is consumer confidence in the franchise?

On ice, they made changes to the roster and coaching staff and by the sample size on this forum they were very positive. The on ice product was already bad so attendance should be close to the mark on that front.

The elephant in the room has not been addressed and while they're trying a different message from LeBlanc's two weeks, no news is no news and without a long term commitment on the lease. A 1700 person drop year over year for the same opponent and day of the week suggests the market isn't buying what Barroway and Patterson are selling on that front.

 

[Killion]

I find it ironic at times that discussions about attendance seems to be taboo on a business of hockey forum.

Definitely not "taboo" & for sure something watched & tracked not just here on these threads but everywhere & absolutely BOH material. To characterize it as "schadenfreude" is off the mark as virtually to a Member anyone joining this site & posting here or anywhere is someone who loves hockey... and who simply may not be enamored with the manner in which the NHL & or any given owner or ownership group operates, conducts their business. Despite the vast improvements in the national broadcasts & increases in central revenues, the league is still very much gate driven at the local levels. Its a thermometer, a gauge, an indicator of where any given clubs at; a barometer that while not always accurate indicative of what the future might hold. Blue skys' or storm warning?

Speaking for myself & very likely the vast majority of regulars here, take absolutely no joy whatsoever when in reading box-scores & seeing attendance figures that are abysmal, well, pretty sad. If you love the game & want whats best for the game & for any franchise, wish that they were all totally healthy enjoying capacity crowds and when they dont and the reasons obvious (and you touch on several MG) then yes, to be discussed. Analyzed. Why? Whats going on? How is this continuing to happen beyond just the W/L column? What can be done to stem the bleeding? If one believes that a new arena is the cure to all that ails the franchise or if one alternatively believes thats a false alibi then its your right to come on here & state exactly that.

All that being said, no, we dont make a banquet of attendance figures in Glendale. We all know how bad they are & if the numbers indicate there getting even worse as the season progresses then for sure there will be plenty of discussion about it. And no, no joy involved. Disappointment, yes, as many of us were hoping for a spike, that attendance would improve & it still could. Still very early. We'll see how she floats through Christmas & into the new year. For sure no one more disappointed then Barroway, Patterson, Chayka & Tocchet, the Players. They have plenty of time to right the ship, and I for one hope they succeed. Get it together. Put together a string of wins. Bust out.

 

[mesamonster]

Attendance is as important as any metric. But as we all know, dull as it gets. What the brass failed to recognize going into this year was the importance of icing a competitive team. The idea that you can low ball the salary cap and do it by virtue of counting on many young and mostly unproven players is a bit naive or better yet reckless. Throw in a mostly inexperienced GM and a coach who has had a checkered head coaching career. I think expectations were set abnormally high given the reality of how competitive the league is. They may be able to right the ship and entice more fans to pay attention. However, judging from what I have seen through five games, this team has structural issues compounded by coaching deficiencies. Find a way to make this team competitive and only then will the attendance have any chance of being respectable.


The on ice woes stem primarily from Andy Baroways decision to restrict payroll. Youth and a lack of resources will be difficult to overcome, if he is still in command next year he should look at adding payroll.

 

[TheLegend]

Attendance is as important as any metric. But as we all know, dull as it gets. What the brass failed to recognize going into this year was the importance of icing a competitive team. The idea that you can low ball the salary cap and do it by virtue of counting on many young and mostly unproven players is a bit naive or better yet reckless. Throw in a mostly inexperienced GM and a coach who has had a checkered head coaching career. I think expectations were set abnormally high given the reality of how competitive the league is. They may be able to right the ship and entice more fans to pay attention. However, judging from what I have seen through five games, this team has structural issues compounded by coaching deficiencies. Find a way to make this team competitive and only then will the attendance have any chance of being respectable.

The on ice woes stem primarily from Andy Baroways decision to restrict payroll. Youth and a lack of resources will be difficult to overcome, if he is still in command next year he should look at adding payroll.

Here we go again......

"Failed to recognize the importance of fielding a competitive team."

Sure.... that's why Barroway got rid of the front office and coaching staff that festered a "country club" mentality which preferred to stick with older midland veterans who played "not to lose" and tried turning the young prospects into the same.

That's why Chayka jettisoned Shane Doan, who played like a shadow of himself his final year and really hadn't played like Shane Doan for the last three. Moved Mike Smith who was nearly as much an enigma in goal as Ilya Bryzgolov was. Moved Martin Hanzal who's never played an 82 game season his entire career. Moved Radim Vrbata who was a one dimensional scorer who's biggest contribution was in shootouts. Moved Michael Stone and Connor Murphy, both who were inconsistent on defense and neither were the puck movers that the new system required.

In return Chayka brings in Derek Stepan. First legitimate top line center the team has had in years. Anti Raanta, who would be a starter on most teams but was stuck behind Erik Lundqvist. Niklas Hjalmarsson, a top versatile D-man with two Stanley Cups under his belt.

They bring in Rick Tocchet, who has little head coaching experience but owns three SC rings, including the last two as an assistant in Pittsburgh.

"Woes stem from Andy Barroway's decision to restrict payroll".

Give me a freaking break. First, you have zero clue as to what the budget is right now. Second, Coyotes are icing roughly 7-8 players who are on ELCs. Most who's ELCs are ending this coming season and at least a couple will be looking at substantial pay raises. Then you have OEL who's going to be looking at a substantial increase soon (even if he's not playing up to it atm.)

Last but not least. You've been constantly accusing Barroway of not having the finances to even buy this team. Yet at the same time you now claim he's being too cheap on payroll.

Oy.......!!!

 

[mesamonster]

Here we go again......

"Failed to recognize the importance of fielding a competitive team."

Sure.... that's why Barroway got rid of the front office and coaching staff that festered a "country club" mentality which preferred to stick with older midland veterans who played "not to lose" and tried turning the young prospects into the same.

That's why Chayka jettisoned Shane Doan, who played like a shadow of himself his final year and really hadn't played like Shane Doan for the last three. Moved Mike Smith who was nearly as much an enigma in goal as Ilya Bryzgolov was. Moved Martin Hanzal who's never played an 82 game season his entire career. Moved Radim Vrbata who was a one dimensional scorer who's biggest contribution was in shootouts. Moved Michael Stone and Connor Murphy, both who were inconsistent on defense and neither were the puck movers that the new system required.

In return Chayka brings in Derek Stepan. First legitimate top line center the team has had in years. Anti Raanta, who would be a starter on most teams but was stuck behind Erik Lundqvist. Niklas Hjalmarsson, a top versatile D-man with two Stanley Cups under his belt.

They bring in Rick Tocchet, who has little head coaching experience but owns three SC rings, including the last two as an assistant in Pittsburgh.

"Woes stem from Andy Barroway's decision to restrict payroll".

Give me a freaking break. First, you have zero clue as to what the budget is right now. Second, Coyotes are icing roughly 7-8 players who are on ELCs. Most who's ELCs are ending this coming season and at least a couple will be looking at substantial pay raises. Then you have OEL who's going to be looking at a substantial increase soon (even if he's not playing up to it atm.)

Last but not least. You've been constantly accusing Barroway of not having the finances to even buy this team. Yet at the same time you now claim he's being too cheap on payroll.

Oy.......!!!

Interesting TL, I recall you singing the praises of many of the players you just trashed. So were you always so negative on IA and all of their personnel moves? If so, why did you so often ridicule those of us who always felt that fans have been underserved by past personnel decisions? As for today and their prospects with this young team and new coaching staff? I think they regressed, no structure for the youth, almost seems like Tocchet has introduced a pond hockey style of play? I seriously do not think he is capable of mentoring this group of semi talented youth.

 

[mesamonster]

I forgot TL, the low payroll goes hand in hand with his inability to fund his own arena construction. If he actually had the funds he would have progressed far beyond just "cheap talk" with regard to an East Valley arena. If he really wants a new venue, then he should put his money where his mouth is instead of writing threatening letters to legislators and complaining about his inability to make money in Glendale. Sorry, I just don`t buy the line of BS he and GB have been offering this community and its fans.

 

[cbcwpg]

I find it ironic at times that discussions about attendance seems to be taboo on a business of hockey forum.

In fairness I'll elaborate my thoughts it's less about good market/bad market but about consumer confidence. After the arena deal at ASU and the relevant bill died in conjunction with Bettman's comments that the 'location is not viable' and the ownership change. How does the team sell this season and how is consumer confidence in the franchise?

On ice, they made changes to the roster and coaching staff and by the sample size on this forum they were very positive. The on ice product was already bad so attendance should be close to the mark on that front.

The elephant in the room has not been addressed and while they're trying a different message from LeBlanc's two weeks, no news is no news and without a long term commitment on the lease. A 1700 person drop year over year for the same opponent and day of the week suggests the market isn't buying what Barroway and Patterson are selling on that front.

Re: Bettman's comments...

JMO, but when the commissionaire basically comes out and tells everyone that the current location that a currently playing team is located in ... " It's dead Jim " ... it can't help casual attendance matters. For the diehards, they are going to go no matter what, but for others, I'm sure some are sitting back to wait and see if an arena appears before putting any money into the team.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Re: Bettman's comments...

JMO, but when the commissionaire basically comes out and tells everyone that the current location that a currently playing team is located in ... " It's dead Jim " ... it can't help casual attendance matters. For the diehards, they are going to go no matter what, but for others, I'm sure some are sitting back to wait and see if an arena appears before putting any money into the team.

....or wait for the team to improve, a perfectly rational reason. And one for which the northern teams legendary get a pass on here. I mean, wow, if those Penguin and Blackhawk teams of the mid 2000s didn't have bad enough attendance, imagine if their arenas had been 20 miles northwest of town!...

 

[Fidel Astro]

After having been a regular contributor to the Coyotes discussion many, many Roman numerals ago, I now like to pop back in every six months or so and see if anything has changed. People are still arguing about attendance numbers in Glendale, so I guess not.

This entire discussion is just an endless circle eating itself.

EDIT to add: ...and that's not the fault of the commenters here. The whole Coyotes situation in general is stuck in a weird unending loop.

 

[Killion]

....or wait for the team to improve, a perfectly rational reason. And one for which the northern teams legendary get a pass on here. I mean, wow, if those Penguin and Blackhawk teams of the mid 2000s didn't have bad enough attendance, imagine if their arenas had been 20 miles northwest of town!...

Well, theres this thing called the internet DOM, chat boards like this one, social media etc.... really took off in the early 00's.... Had it been as pervasive, ubiquitous, everyone wired up back when Chicago & Pittsburgh were having their own attendance & arena problems, and had their ownership pulled what the COG, Burke/Gluckstern/Ellman/Moyes-Balsillie/NHL/Reinsdorf/Hulsizer/Jamison/IA & what Barroway is attempting to pull-off then yes, you can Bet Your Bippy megathreads here & elsewhere discussing the Black Hawks & Penguins.

.... and yes, pretty much Fidel. Like having amnesia, precognition & deja vu all at the same time.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Well, theres this thing called the internet DOM,.

You mean that thing I learned about working for NASA in the late 80s? Yes, I am familiar

 

[WildGopher]

That private-public partnership that Barroway likes to talk about in getting a new arena...may just be a little bit harder to sell in the next State Legislative session...

Arizona Legislature could have a budget shortfall of $100M in 2018

To quote:

"“It’s going to be a free-for-all. We’re back to the cutting, I don’t see any other way,” [Republican Rep. Don] Shooter said. “It’s going to come down to who’s going to bleed the least, what’s going to be the least painful, I guess.”"

Source: http://ktar.com/story/1784249/arizona-legislatures-budget-analysts-predict-2018-shortfall/

This could be a pretty significant roadblock, if the Coyotes intend to find their sucker - er, funding - by going back to the legislature.

While $100 million isn't a huge shortfall for a state by today's standards, AZ isn't known as a free-spending state. And my experience working at another legislature is that when word gets around that a state is facing a budgetary shortfall year, hopes for spending for any new projects really fall off. Leadership wants to fund only the most necessary projects.

Gov. Ducey will submit a general budget request, and the AZ Joint Legislative Budget Committee, made up of 8 House and 8 Senate members, will also craft some budget parameters/expectations going in to the 2018 session. From what little we heard last year, there wasn't support from the governor's office for state funding for a new arena last year, and another challenge is the makeup of the Joint Budget Committee: While I recognize a name or two on it who supported Sen. Worsley's bill, the Senate chairman is Sen. Debbie Lesko of Glendale, who seemed to strongly oppose a 2nd arena last year. Sen. Yee, who also represents part of Glendale, is also on the Committee, and I can't see her supporting anything that harms the arena there.

With all that operating against them, I don't know if the Coyotes should even try to ask for legislative funding this year. Maybe for now their best bet is to try to work with Phoenix on a new arena. Personally, I think Phoenix would be better off just renovating the current building, but a new city-funded building might be the Coyotes' best hope. Or maybe the tribes? That keeps coming up, but the economics don't seem to be there for that option.

 

[cheswick]

Re: Bettman's comments...

JMO, but when the commissionaire basically comes out and tells everyone that the current location that a currently playing team is located in ... " It's dead Jim " ... it can't help casual attendance matters. For the diehards, they are going to go no matter what, but for others, I'm sure some are sitting back to wait and see if an arena appears before putting any money into the team.

I doubt a casual Coyotes fan is even aware of Bettmans comments. They have traditionally drawn poorly prior to Christmas and the influx of snowbirds.

 

[TheLegend]

Interesting TL, I recall you singing the praises of many of the players you just trashed. So were you always so negative on IA and all of their personnel moves? If so, why did you so often ridicule those of us who always felt that fans have been underserved by past personnel decisions? As for today and their prospects with this young team and new coaching staff? I think they regressed, no structure for the youth, almost seems like Tocchet has introduced a pond hockey style of play? I seriously do not think he is capable of mentoring this group of semi talented youth.

I dunno Mesa..... why suddenly try to deflect the argument over to me rather than defending you own position?

The reason why I possibly "ridicule" you is that 99% of the time you have nothing but negative complaints about everything this franchise does. It doesn't matter what they do.... even if it's something good you will find something to complain about. And it always seems to center around the same two or three things. They're "too cheap".... or "sleazy" ..... or "clueless". The latter item has some credence given IA's blunder that cost them their lease with Glendale. But it's also been known from the beginning that this would be a budget minded operation given the situation it's in so why continue to argue the obvious???

So call me the "Anti-Mesa" if you like. I'm the "yang" to your "ying" (or vice versa).

BTW..... Those players that I (in your words) "trashed" above are not geared towards the style of play that this franchise was moving to starting about two years ago. They don't fit in a high tempo aggresive style that many teams are running today.

 

[mesamonster]

I dunno Mesa..... why suddenly try to deflect the argument over to me rather than defending you own position?

The reason why I possibly "ridicule" you is that 99% of the time you have nothing but negative complaints about everything this franchise does. It doesn't matter what they do.... even if it's something good you will find something to complain about. And it always seems to center around the same two or three things. They're "too cheap".... or "sleazy" ..... or "clueless". The latter item has some credence given IA's blunder that cost them their lease with Glendale. But it's also been known from the beginning that this would be a budget minded operation given the situation it's in so why continue to argue the obvious???

So call me the "Anti-Mesa" if you like. I'm the "yang" to your "ying" (or vice versa).

BTW..... Those players that I (in your words) "trashed" above are not geared towards the style of play that this franchise was moving to starting about two years ago. They don't fit in a high tempo aggresive style that many teams are running today.

Yes, I realize Iam the purveyor of negative thoughts as it relates to this franchise. Can`t help myself when presented with the history of this operation. But let me clarify a couple of points, I am not bashing the players, the fans and for that matter you, TL. I know you are a hardcore fan and for that reason, I would never want to see you or the other fans hurt by what I consider to be a scheme concocted by GB and perpetuated by the likes of Andy Barroway and Tony Leblanc. GB`s lies and threats to the city of Glendale still irk me. His lies about the use of the $50MM (insurance funds ) was a gross misuse of his own authority and has forever soured me on this little jerk. Again, not about you or the team specifically, but about the way in which he went about the leagues business in a small town that could ill afford to be doing business with him. The COG deserves an appropriate amount of blame for being so stupid as well.

As for AB he was the impetus behind Tony trotting out all of his cute little timelines and made up piles of dirt. Those of us that have followed this saga, we all knew that it was just empty talk and a means of kicking the can down the road hoping nobody would notice that they had no intention of ever putting any of their money into a new arena. Where is AB`s $170MM he promised to put toward the new arena? This is a guy without a wit of knowledge as to how to run a professional franchise, he buys in yet keeps an incompetent guy like Leblanc around to run the show. Hires an analytics boy to be his GM, paying him next to nothing, then publicly proclaims they are going to be bottom dwellers on the salary cap, yet he expects to win? Sorry TL, these are all moves of a man without a clue, he has little interest in winning now, his interest resides in repackaging this franchise so that he can sell it or move it very soon. The idea that he wants to build this and stay in the Valley for a long time is a downright deception on his part. Don`t fool yourself, this is all about making money and the only way he has any chance of that is to move this entity sooner than later. The narrative to the fans and the perception he is attempting to achieve with them is quite different than his real motivations. For that, I do not like this guy and all that he stands for.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Again, not about you or the team specifically, but about the way in which he went about the leagues business in a small town that could ill afford to be doing business with him. The COG deserves an appropriate amount of blame for being so stupid as well.

(that 'small town' - out of approx 20,000 American municipal governments - is per 2016 estimates now the 86th largest city in the USA by population ... I mean, just because it "behaves" like a small town, with small town mindsets, small town naivete, what have you...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
https://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/gc021x1.pdf

 

[mesamonster]

(that 'small town' - out of approx 20,000 American municipal governments - is per 2016 estimates now the 86th largest city in the USA by population ... I mean, just because it "behaves" like a small town, with small town mindsets, small town naivete, what have you...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
https://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/gc021x1.pdf

Perhaps I should have said a midsize town with a Council that has a small town mindset.

 

[GuelphStormer]

i can easily imagine the players quickly losing respect for any owner who allows his kid to take cheap shots at them like this.

what an entitled little snot. this deserves an "accidental" elbow to the head if he dares set foot in the dressing room.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

i can easily imagine the players quickly losing respect for any owner who allows his kid to take cheap shots at them like this.

what an entitled little snot. this deserves an "accidental" elbow to the head if he dares set foot in the dressing room.

Thing is, he's absolutely not wrong. And if the players get upset about it, maybe they could try winning a freaking game before taking it out on the kid.