Phoenix CXXX: Sock it to ME

[Killion]

Another way to look at this is to ask,"why would you buy a business that has never made money?" Answer to sell it, this is what he is working toward, and his time is running out.

Yet this is not what he's claiming mesa. So how do you reconcile your common sensical & pragmatic theory with his mission statements thus far?.... They dont jibe.... The only conclusion one can come to if you buy into the "quick flip" theory is that he & now Patterson are congenital liars, playing the fans, playing everyone. Frankly I have a hard time buying that given what I've seen of Barroway thus far. I do believe he genuinely wants to make a go of it in Arizona. So you can take issue with his hubris, and I suppose as you have at various times suggest that he's a fool, completely delusional. Entirely possible. Going for broke. But even then there would have to be limits. We dont know his full financial wherewithal's, where he can find additional funding if & when required.... So honestly, I wouldnt completely tie onself to the mast of the "quick~flip" theory. I too figured that very likely when it was announced he'd bought out IA & learned the details of his financing etc. However since then as I say, his actions have not been those of someone looking to bail in the near-term. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[TheLegend]

Another way to look at this is to ask,"why would you buy a business that has never made money?" Answer to sell it, this is what he is working toward, and his time is running out.

You keep pushing that "in it to flip it" narrative and everything Barroway has done to date (which includes his other attempts to purchase a pro sports franchise flies directly into the face of it.

Pro sports teams aren't a commodity you just buy and sell for a quick gain.

Even Steve Ellman looked to keep the Coyotes for at least 10 years before selling. them and Westgate together.

 

[mesamonster]

You keep pushing that "in it to flip it" narrative and everything Barroway has done to date (which includes his other attempts to purchase a pro sports franchise flies directly into the face of it.

Pro sports teams aren't a commodity you just buy and sell for a quick gain.

Even Steve Ellman looked to keep the Coyotes for at least 10 years before selling. them and Westgate together.

Legend, if he isn`t in it to flip it then why buy a business that is a proven financial loser, and in its present location even AB has admitted it will NEVER work. Words to that effect that he used with the legislature last spring. So if I use your logic, he is in the short run accepting another $75-100MM loss between now and when his new arena is constructed. That, on top of his accumulated debt is a lot of money for a man who insists that his management operate on a shoestring. Not saying that watching the expense line is bad, but in this case the Coyotes low payroll may be partly responsible for some of the on ice malaise and the correspondingly low attendance figures. He has two roads to go down, one is to hold on through the thick and thin of GRA and a possible East Valley move in the distant future. The second, which is my view, is he is readying the asset for sale, by paring back on admin and player payroll, accumulating young ELC`s and future draft picks. All of which cost little today, but can become very expensive with any individual success. I don`t see AB as having the staying power to absorb large losses in perpetuity. That seems to be your default, correct? Again, we ALL know that losses are going to continue, the model in the desert is presently broken and I have yet to hear anyone suggest how it can be reliably fixed. A new arena seems to be the only answer I have heard. Even that has no guarantees attached to it. So I believe I have looked at this objectively, every business owner that I know builds their enterprise to maximize value in the event that such an individual may want to sell. Many elect not to sell because the discounted cash flows cannot be made up by the anticipated sale price. Some may hold to hand the asset to future family generations. In most cases those are businesses that generate yearly cash flow, in this case there is only negative cash flow which necessitates an outright sale to recoup an individuals financial basis. AB, either goes this route sooner than later or lives with an asset that generates nothing but negative returns. Legend, if you believe he wants to hold I would be interested in how you think he can accomplish this goal while continuing to lose money?

 

[cbcwpg]

JMO, but I don't think Barroway is in the "flip it" mode today, but that is 100% conditional upon him getting his new arena. Barroway will give it some time ( a year or two, maybe more ) but as soon as it becomes obvious he's not getting his arena, he will go to full on move it mode.

 

[mesamonster]

JMO, but I don't think Barroway is in the "flip it" mode today, but that is 100% conditional upon him getting his new arena. Barroway will give it some time ( a year or two, maybe more ) but as soon as it becomes obvious he's not getting his arena, he will go to full on move it mode.

And i believe "full on move it mode" is long before he loses money he does not have in three years time. You are also suggesting that the enterprise value of the franchise is going to move faster than the accumulated losses do. I might also suggest that once he has reached a decision to sell it may take time he does not have? Put it up for sale by yearend and see who is willing to pay him more than he has in it. What does he have to lose putting a "for sale" sign on the franchise this year? We witnessed the NHL sit for quite some period of time waiting to sell the team 4+years ago. He is either going to get an offer he can accept or he isn`t and therefore he can continue to hold his prized possession. In my world everything is ALWAYS for sale, price is the sole arbiter of success or failure. I firmly believe that if he had a reasonable offer at yearend he would take it and run for the flippin hills!

 

[Llama19]

In other news...City of Phoenix, in Executive Session [] had this agenda item today:

Item 2 - Discussion and consultation re:Update on Downtown Arena
(Milton Dohoney, Jr., John Chan, Jeremy Legg, Denise Olson; In-house counsel: Daniel L. Brown, Thomas Stack, and Arena Consultant Daniel Barrett) (Outside counsel: Kevin Kelley, Paul Jacobs – Husch Blackwell)

Source: (PDF): https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksite/City Council Meeting Files/171010012.pdf

One would think that they wanted to hide that consultants report from the public...

And...they are doing it again...at their Oct 18 meeting, too...

Source (PDF): https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksite/City Council Meeting Files/171018004.pdf

 

[powerstuck]

Another way to look at this is to ask,"why would you buy a business that has never made money?" Answer to sell it, this is what he is working toward, and his time is running out.

I understand that.
But what location is ready to take Coyotes in the next 12 months ? NONE.

 

[mesamonster]

What I have yet u o hear from anyone is a cogent reason, as a businessman, why this is a good asset to own? No one has made any kind of argument supporting the opportunity that theoretically exists in owning this franchise. The only theory I have heard is let's let this play out and see what happens. I have also heard that his moves, since becoming sole owner are not the moves of a flipper. How do you know that, maybe those are moves made to make this asset look more appealing to a new buyer? I still have not heard a logical explanation as to why this is a good business to own? If it so good, somebody would have laid out AB"S entry and exit strategy. I don't know of any business transaction I have ever seen that is done with so few positive financial metrics as this. I would even question this purchase if there was no leverage much less what AB has assumed. Can anyone lay out a financial path forward that would work? That is all I am asking, please show me the other side of my financial thesis. Show me the other side of this that aka economic sense.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Mesa Barroway tried before to get the islanders no? Perhaps some people are willing to take losses to own a team.

 

[mesamonster]

Mesa Barroway tried before to get the islanders no? Perhaps some people are willing to take losses to own a team.

So you are telling me his interest is in owning a professional franchise that loses money? Unlikely, what he has in mind may be owning a professional team at a bargain basement price with the hope of turning it around. I get that, but while he was pursuing the Islanders he could have bought the Coyotes for $140MM? Instead he buys a perpetual money lose for well above $300MM. Did this franchise actually actually double in value over 4 years? I don't think so, because in order to double you need to have a buyer willing to pay that much. I submit that he overpaid by almost twice. Now with a wheel barrow of debt and perpetual losses we are to believe that this franchise is worth north of $500MM? Paul Allen is a pretty savy businessman and if we are to believe his valuation the team might be worth $200MM on a good day. So Once again, Help me With The math, how does this make any economic sense? If the answer is it doesn't have to, I call BS on that. Everyone has a threshold for economic pain and I so not believe AB'S is so high that he does not care what he stands to lose. If losses are secondary to ownership, why bother with funding a new arena, just stay in Glendale where you know what the losses will be. Why bother hiring Patterson to be your Tony look alike mouthpiece promoting new arena venues for the success of the franchise?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Houston is open for business.

 

[mesamonster]

Houston is open for business.

Does Alexander want to pay Andy his price for the Coyotes? I doubt it!

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Does Alexander want to pay Andy his price for the Coyotes? I doubt it!

Alexander is no longer in control in Houston, Fertitta bought that, mesa

 

[Killion]

^^^ I'm a little confused here..... Arent those all things that fall under the purview, responsibility of AEG & their staff? While I'd imagine the Coyotes & AEG do wotk hand in glove to insure a good experience is had by the fans could they not just as easily send out a questionnaire / survey to existing Seasons Ticket & Mini-Pack Subscribers?...... and..... did you receive this email Llama? If so, you should take them up on it.

 

[Headshot77]

I understand that.
But what location is ready to take Coyotes in the next 12 months ? NONE.

Quebec definitely could host a team for next season if they needed to. Houston could be ready as soon as two seasons from now (ticket drives and whatnot). Seattle is ready to go once they finish their arena.

 

[TheLegend]

So you are telling me his interest is in owning a professional franchise that loses money? Unlikely, what he has in mind may be owning a professional team at a bargain basement price with the hope of turning it around. I get that, but while he was pursuing the Islanders he could have bought the Coyotes for $140MM? Instead he buys a perpetual money lose for well above $300MM. Did this franchise actually actually double in value over 4 years? I don't think so, because in order to double you need to have a buyer willing to pay that much. I submit that he overpaid by almost twice. Now with a wheel barrow of debt and perpetual losses we are to believe that this franchise is worth north of $500MM? Paul Allen is a pretty savy businessman and if we are to believe his valuation the team might be worth $200MM on a good day. So Once again, Help me With The math, how does this make any economic sense? If the answer is it doesn't have to, I call BS on that. Everyone has a threshold for economic pain and I so not believe AB'S is so high that he does not care what he stands to lose. If losses are secondary to ownership, why bother with funding a new arena, just stay in Glendale where you know what the losses will be. Why bother hiring Patterson to be your Tony look alike mouthpiece promoting new arena venues for the success of the franchise?

Why hire Patterson??? Because.... 1) He doesn't blather for the sake of it like LeBlanc did...... and 2) he has connections.
Patterson is the exact opposite of LeBlanc and really is what he franchise needs if they are seeking another arena.

Barroway spent quite a while pursuing the Islanders. The Isles were in much better shape than the Yotes were. AND.... He's also from Philadelphia and the Islanders were much closer to him than the Yotes were.

Finally it doesn't really matter what you, and I or anyone else thinks this franchise is worth. It's whatever the league thinks it is and what someone is willing to pay/invest in it.

 

[TheLegend]

^^^ I'm a little confused here..... Arent those all things that fall under the purview, responsibility of AEG & their staff? While I'd imagine the Coyotes & AEG do wotk hand in glove to insure a good experience is had by the fans could they not just as easily send out a questionnaire / survey to existing Seasons Ticket & Mini-Pack Subscribers?...... and..... did you receive this email Llama? If so, you should take them up on it.

Another Yotes fan posted in the team forum he got the email. Not too hard to get on a mailing list if you enter one of their contests. There's probably a very limited number of these offers available.

 

[Killion]

Another Yotes fan posted in the team forum he got the email. Not too hard to get on a mailing list if you enter one of their contests. There's probably a very limited number of these offers available.

Interesting. I guess perhaps their looking to collect feedback/data from the much more casual fan in offering free tickets like that. Not sure who's driving the bus on this though; AEG or the Coyotes.... and I guess if you wanted to speculate a little bit, as in "why bother"..... why would either one care about providing better customer service if the teams planning to leave? AEG has decent enough customer service standards, know what their doing. Pretty much cookie cutter building~building.

 

[powerstuck]

Quebec definitely could host a team for next season if they needed to. Houston could be ready as soon as two seasons from now (ticket drives and whatnot). Seattle is ready to go once they finish their arena.

Quebec = Conference imbalance, can't be done.
Huston = Who ? It's a complete radio silence from Huston about NHL.
Seattle = Arena not ready before at least 2020.

So once again, which city, on very short term (by the end of 2017-18 season/before the beginning of 2018-19 season) can welcome the Coyotes ?

 

[TheLegend]

Interesting. I guess perhaps their looking to collect feedback/data from the much more casual fan in offering free tickets like that. Not sure who's driving the bus on this though; AEG or the Coyotes.... and I guess if you wanted to speculate a little bit, as in "why bother"..... why would either one care about providing better customer service if the teams planning to leave? AEG has decent enough customer service standards, know what their doing. Pretty much cookie cutter building~building.

There's a serious issue in regards to how the paperless ticket system is working. Can scan the Yotes board for many comments on it and they're all negative. That's pretty much on AEG and how they interface with Ticketmaster and such.

But this also might be a joint attempt from the Yotes and AEG to see how things are and if the changes they made are positive, plus see what more they can do.

 

[pfp]

Well I can tell you this... They have had a really nice designated driver program for the last few years. Sigh up at each game and they give you a coupon/token for a free soda. Opening night I signed up and went to the same concession stand as always and they no longer accept them and couldn't tell me any concession stand that did.

I'm fine if they want to discontinue the program but don't let people sign up, and give them the coupon, then refuse to accept them.

 

[powerstuck]

4-0 LVGK...in the first with 9 minutes to go...

How's that new arena coming...Mr Barroway...

A bit OT but last night I was playing hockey in one of my beer leagues and after the game one of boys made a joke...
Vegas scored more goals in 1st period than Habs in whole season so far. We're all Nordique fans tho

 

[awfulwaffle]

4-0 LVGK...in the first with 9 minutes to go...

How's that new arena coming...Mr Barroway...

There is a GDT for game related posts.

 

[Headshot77]

Quebec = Conference imbalance, can't be done.
Huston = Who ? It's a complete radio silence from Huston about NHL.
Seattle = Arena not ready before at least 2020.

So once again, which city, on very short term (by the end of 2017-18 season/before the beginning of 2018-19 season) can welcome the Coyotes ?

If the NHL wanted teams in all three areas, you can relocate to Quebec and expand to Houston and Seattle later to even things out. Also, the new owner of the Houston Rockets wants hockey. https://www.bizjournals.com/houston...ould-be-in-the-works-for-houston-rockets.html

So, both Quebec and Houston could get a team for next season, IMO.

 

[Killion]

There is a GDT for game related posts.

Indeed. What was noteworthy about last nights opener in Vegas was that the Coyotes during the pre-game ceremonies acquitted themselves with class & grace. Really nice to see.... Only one game but it's not hard to imagine a pretty entertaining rivalry eventually unfolding specifically with the Knights, enjoining that which exists with the Kings, Ducks, Stars (hopefully one day Houston) & Sharks etc.