Phoenix CXXX: Sock it to ME

[CokenoPepsi]

So what is going on? Team still trying to build a new arena? Is the lease up soon? What is the next step?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

So what is going on? Team still trying to build a new arena? Is the lease up soon? What is the next step?

(Groan)

Nothing.
Yes.
Yes...but...
Automatically renewing the lease at new years.

In b4 "but but but but they said Glendale isn't viable long term!"

 

[Slashers98]

I've been away for a while... still no update on a new arena? The clock is ticking and the Coyotes keep losing! They are even worse than my putrid Habs haha.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I've been away for a while... still no update on a new arena? The clock is ticking and the Coyotes keep losing! They are even worse than my putrid Habs haha.

Except you have Carey Price and Shea Weber (both of whom I own in my fantasy league, DAMMIT) so I don't see you being putrid for much longer. The Coyotes, on the other hand...

 

[MNNumbers]

Except you have Carey Price and Shea Weber (both of whom I own in my fantasy league, DAMMIT) so I don't see you being putrid for much longer. The Coyotes, on the other hand...

TFP - You seem discouraged about the team. Don't blame you. It seems it could be a long year. In your connections to the rest of the fan base, do others seem to feel the same?

 

[Killion]

^^^ Still early days guys. Wouldnt be freaking out quite yet.

 

[MNNumbers]

^^^ Still early days guys. Wouldnt be freaking out quite yet.

I hear you Killion. But, try this math on for size....
If the Western Conference playoff race ends at 90 pts (this is about average), then the Yotes need 89 points in 75 games. That means going 44-30-1 from here on out.

Already, that's getting tough.

Throw in this next road trip, and if they are less than .500 on the trip, they come home needing something like 85 points in 70 games. Or, 42-27-1. That's really tough.

So, I don't blame Feckless.

What that all means for the renewing of the lease is anyone's guess.

 

[Killion]

I hear you Killion. But, try this math on for size....
If the Western Conference playoff race ends at 90 pts (this is about average), then the Yotes need 89 points in 75 games. That means going 44-30-1 from here on out.

Already, that's getting tough.

Throw in this next road trip, and if they are less than .500 on the trip, they come home needing something like 85 points in 70 games. Or, 42-27-1. That's really tough.

So, I don't blame Feckless.

What that all means for the renewing of the lease is anyone's guess.

Yes, understood. They could actually be very close to being mathematically eliminated from the Playoffs by the first week of December if they dont get it together & put some wins up fast however even then, the Division there in, could be some cratering, swoons amongst their peers so they could squeak in if they can be rebound thereafter. Into December & January.... Regardless, to not renew the Lease through Dec 31/18 would be suicidal (and I cannot imagine theres anykind of onerous early exit fee/penalty if they did leave in lets say April or May) in terms of attendance through the rest of this season and then the big question, where are they gunna go? Bettman, Barroway & Patterson have all said & intimated that "only just beginning the process in terms of the hunt (read funding) for a new arena, that they have some time to figure that out which suggests to me at least another year or two. How does Barroway walk-back everything he's said & promised with a dramatic announcement in like 6mnths from now "thats all folks, were done here" I just dont know. Not really seeing it.

 

[Mightygoose]

I would agree that the losses piling up won't not affect if they use the auto renewal or not.

With expansion and the Golden Knights doing well, there are more teams in both the west and division competing for the same number of top 3 and 2 wildcard spots this year. So yes, if they don't turn things around soon, it will be a much steeper hill to climb.

The team painted a good one-ice picture at the beginning of the season bolstered by the moves they made to the roster and coaching staff. Once this is out of range for the season, the attention will turn to the progress on the arena front. They can only be at the 'beginning of the process' for only so long. Weather they renew or not will likely not make news right off the back. The market is used to uncertainty but how would they handle another let town if this new round of arena talk goes no where?

 

[Killion]

The team painted a good one-ice picture at the beginning of the season bolstered by the moves they made to the roster and coaching staff. Once this is out of range for the season, the attention will turn to the progress on the arena front. They can't be at the 'beginning of the process' for only so long. Weather they renew or not will likely not news right off the back. The market is used to uncertainty but how would they handle another let town if this new round of arena talk goes no where?

Yes its a double whammy thus far; promise of a bright future on the ice falling well below expectations thus far and the lack of progress, of anything solid being said about their arena situation. I honestly, objectively just dont see the State responding favorably to any requests for a revolving TIF or anything of the kind, the deck seriously stacked against them with representatives who sit on the very (one the Chairman thereof) Committee's they'd need to have on-side but who's ridings include Glendale. That just leaves the City of Phoenix itself as a possibility and the smoke signals thus far suggest a reno to TSRA.... which would preclude the possibility of a new shared facility, not that that was ever feasible or practicable to begin with though sure, theoretically & practically speaking from a taxpayer perspective the best option. It is not an option however given the Suns & Coyotes business models, untenable, unworkable. Cant be done. Wont work. So where does that leave things? Tempe? Scottsdale? That the City Councils of either will go rogue & fund a new building then pay Barroway a serious chunk of change in perpetuity to "manage" the place? If theres absolutely no going back with Glendale, no way no how then that just leaves three road's open.... Contraction, Relocation or a commitment by the NHL to prop this puppy up in Glendale for at least another decade.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

TFP - You seem discouraged about the team. Don't blame you. It seems it could be a long year. In your connections to the rest of the fan base, do others seem to feel the same?

Right now it's a mix - most of the folks on F40 are trying to mine positives from the games, and in fairness there are a few. Clayton Keller, for example, is very definitely star-caliber - probably the first Coyotes prospect to legitimately project to be a star NHL player that I can remember.

What discourages me the most is that Coyotes fans seem so used to losing now that I'm already hearing about lotteries and great future prospects in the next draft and we're still in October. All the crap about the supposed new arena aside, this was a team that made a bunch of what I thought to be - and what I still consider to be - very solid moves to make this team legitimately better. All it has netted us so far is seven losses and no wins. At this point I can't tell if it's just karma ball-kicking all of us with a steel-toed boot just for giggles or what. But unless things turn the corner on the ice, it's going to be a very lonely arena by the time we hit the holidays.

As far as the arena situation goes, though, I don't think there's a lot to talk about right now. In terms of Barroway... I have my own conspiracy theory knocking around in my head but it's not worth sharing.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

(about the only positive I've taken from the team so far, other than the offensive prowess of one rookie, is that they are actually getting leads - they have a freakishly low pct (0-4-1 .100) when scoring first. But they are scoring first. pretty much everything else has been disappointing and/or unlucky.)

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I've been away for a while... still no update on a new arena? The clock is ticking and the Coyotes keep losing! They are even worse than my putrid Habs haha.

Hello? Is this thing on? *bump bump bump*, was there not a post immediately before yours?

 

[mesamonster]

Right now it's a mix - most of the folks on F40 are trying to mine positives from the games, and in fairness there are a few. Clayton Keller, for example, is very definitely star-caliber - probably the first Coyotes prospect to legitimately project to be a star NHL player that I can remember.

What discourages me the most is that Coyotes fans seem so used to losing now that I'm already hearing about lotteries and great future prospects in the next draft and we're still in October. All the crap about the supposed new arena aside, this was a team that made a bunch of what I thought to be - and what I still consider to be - very solid moves to make this team legitimately better. All it has netted us so far is seven losses and no wins. At this point I can't tell if it's just karma ball-kicking all of us with a steel-toed boot just for giggles or what. But unless things turn the corner on the ice, it's going to be a very lonely arena by the time we hit the holidays.

As far as the arena situation goes, though, I don't think there's a lot to talk about right now. In terms of Barroway... I have my own conspiracy theory knocking around in my head but it's not worth sharing.

I like everything i have seen from Keller, kid has great vision, quick first step, good high end speed, deceptively accurate shot, he will be good for a long time. Beyond Keller, I believe expectations were prematurely too high for this group. New coaching staff and youth take time to develop together?v This squad cannot afford too many more losses on top of this losing streak, not only will they put themselves out of contention, but morale will begin to flag. People forget how competitive this league is, to make such big strides in one year is difficult.

As for the arena updates, should Barroway and Patterson not have anything to say by X-mas what impact will that have in this ongoing saga?

 

[MNNumbers]

...
As for the arena updates, should Barroway and Patterson not have anything to say by X-mas what impact will that have in this ongoing saga?

Probably less than you and I would expect, Mesa. The only impact is that, with the season going to be in the tank already, and no arena news, there will be NO interest, so seat sales will decrease even more, and losses will pile higher yet.

However, I am still unconvinced that Barroway is on the hook the way you feel he is. There is something happening with the finances of this franchise, the details of which are escaping all of us. Since that is the case (or least, it's the most likely case), nothing will probably change all year, and we will have been left waiting for Godot.

 

[mesamonster]

Probably less than you and I would expect, Mesa. The only impact is that, with the season going to be in the tank already, and no arena news, there will be NO interest, so seat sales will decrease even more, and losses will pile higher yet.

However, I am still unconvinced that Barroway is on the hook the way you feel he is. There is something happening with the finances of this franchise, the details of which are escaping all of us. Since that is the case (or least, it's the most likely case), nothing will probably change all year, and we will have been left waiting for Godot.

Perhaps so, I have been led to believe that AB put his own signature to the loans securing this franchise. What those loans accumulate to is still a guessing game. I believe the number surpasses $300+MM, and possibly a lot higher. Is it your belief that the NHL remains involved in a portion of the debt? Don`t forget, GB has promised the BOG that they will not lose money on this transaction, therefore when he had the opportunity to turn the loans over to AB he absolved his owners of that liability. GB, sees AB as his marionette, using him to take the fall the personally, and by doing so, he is responsible fore repayment. I realize it sounds like a suicide move on Barroways part and that is where I wonder where GB comes in. Has he promised AB ,an exit strategy? Perhaps so, it is my firm belief that his ownership beyond the 1st of the year will be a prescription for financial failure. NO new arena and $25-40MM per year in losses does not add up to a winning financial strategy. I have yet to hear a well reasoned strategy for his exit other than a deep pocketed investor takes over AB`s debt in exchange for the franchise. The whole thing just does not make any financial sense, none!

 

[TheLegend]

TFP - You seem discouraged about the team. Don't blame you. It seems it could be a long year. In your connections to the rest of the fan base, do others seekeeps m to feel the same?

Right now it's a mix - most of the folks on F40 are trying to mine positives from the games, and in fairness there are a few. Clayton Keller, for example, is very definitely star-caliber - probably the first Coyotes prospect to legitimately project to be a star NHL player that I can remember.

What discourages me the most is that Coyotes fans seem so used to losing now that I'm already hearing about lotteries and great future prospects in the next draft and we're still in October. All the crap about the supposed new arena aside, this was a team that made a bunch of what I thought to be - and what I still consider to be - very solid moves to make this team legitimately better. All it has netted us so far is seven losses and no wins. At this point I can't tell if it's just karma ball-kicking all of us with a steel-toed boot just for giggles or what. But unless things turn the corner on the ice, it's going to be a very lonely arena by the time we hit the holidays.

As far as the arena situation goes, though, I don't think there's a lot to talk about right now. In terms of Barroway... I have my own conspiracy theory knocking around in my head but it's not worth sharing.

Add my sentiment to what TFP said. I see a relatively small number people out on social media panicking and wanting to already make changes. But the majority are frustrated that the team shows a lot of promise but keeps shooting itself in the foot right after it scores. If they can clean that one item up then well start seeing a few wins and the fans will have something to get behind.

 

[MNNumbers]

Perhaps so, I have been led to believe that AB put his own signature to the loans securing this franchise. What those loans accumulate to is still a guessing game. I believe the number surpasses $300+MM, and possibly a lot higher. Is it your belief that the NHL remains involved in a portion of the debt? Don`t forget, GB has promised the BOG that they will not lose money on this transaction, therefore when he had the opportunity to turn the loans over to AB he absolved his owners of that liability. GB, sees AB as his marionette, using him to take the fall the personally, and by doing so, he is responsible fore repayment. I realize it sounds like a suicide move on Barroways part and that is where I wonder where GB comes in. Has he promised AB ,an exit strategy? Perhaps so, it is my firm belief that his ownership beyond the 1st of the year will be a prescription for financial failure. NO new arena and $25-40MM per year in losses does not add up to a winning financial strategy. I have yet to hear a well reasoned strategy for his exit other than a deep pocketed investor takes over AB`s debt in exchange for the franchise. The whole thing just does not make any financial sense, none!

I guess I am aware of your ideas, mesa. For that to be true (that GB intends for AB to take the fall and stick his head under the guillotine for the franchise) requires AB to be a more foolish man than LeBlanc. I find that difficult to believe, although it may be true.

Since that seems far-fetched (although, again, none of us really knows anything), then I assume that the current situation is still a cover for league control. That also seems strange, because I would believe that the league would not want to be holding the bag.

So, I'm left with only, "Nothing makes sense, so I am going to wait and see." And, that seems pretty good to me, given the lies and deception with which the NHL deals with every situation.

 

[Killion]

^^^ Yes, agreed MNN..... I too believe theres something going on with the finances, some form of surety, of guarantee's, the NHL still very much propping up the current regime, pulling the strings. Just what exactly is going on, where this is all headed.... absolutely no idea..... but no, I dont believe for a minute that a former attorney & modestly successful financial manager like Andrew Barroway would just blithely & recklessly be "all in" & up to, beyond his neck drowning in red-ink without some serious serious League backing & fully developed contingency plans in place.

Again.... we obviously dont know what they are nor do we even know when, what timeline, what sort of schedule these guys are working from. Their not sharing, the media long since given up in even asking, the market & the topic itself so far beyond fatigued that the whole matter is just a bad joke that no one wants to hear anymore. That just gets worse & worse & worse with the passage of time. Some new horror every other month as in "so how much worse could things get" then BAM.... oh Boy.... sure didnt see that comin... woo.... whole new low...... gotta kill em' right?..... nope.... and on & on & on.... So whats next? My guess? Because thats all it is, a guess..... I guess we see some attempts to engage the Legislature again. That at least the appearance given that yes, they are trying. Moonshot. If you "believe" in Barroway & the team, "hope". If your a cynic, you'd call it more of the same old same old "false hope". But with nothing at all seemingly happening, who knows?

 

[Glacial]

^^^ Yes, agreed MNN..... I too believe theres something going on with the finances, some form of surety, of guarantee's, the NHL still very much propping up the current regime, pulling the strings. Just what exactly is going on, where this is all headed.... absolutely no idea..... but no, I dont believe for a minute that a former attorney & modestly successful financial manager like Andrew Barroway would just blithely & recklessly be "all in" & up to, beyond his neck drowning in red-ink without some serious serious League backing & fully developed contingency plans in place.

Again.... we obviously dont know what they are nor do we even know when, what timeline, what sort of schedule these guys are working from. Their not sharing, the media long since given up in even asking, the market & the topic itself so far beyond fatigued that the whole matter is just a bad joke that no one wants to hear anymore. That just gets worse & worse & worse with the passage of time. Some new horror every other month as in "so how much worse could things get" then BAM.... oh Boy.... sure didnt see that comin... woo.... whole new low...... gotta kill em' right?..... nope.... and on & on & on.... So whats next? My guess? Because thats all it is, a guess..... I guess we see some attempts to engage the Legislature again. That at least the appearance given that yes, they are trying. Moonshot. If you "believe" in Barroway & the team, "hope". If your a cynic, you'd call it more of the same old same old "false hope". But with nothing at all seemingly happening, who knows?

I love a good conspiracy. It's been too quiet with this saga lately. I would think we have come to know it too well to believe everything was calm, that the only things going on are what everyone can see. It's been too quiet on the visible portion of the schemes (the tip of the iceberg). It's against the nature of Coyotes owners or 'owners' to *not* scheme. I would agree they're likely to try again with the Legislature. The question is what was the endgame? Keep plugging away at the slot machine that is Arizona to get that lucky alignment of reels? Waiting for Seattle to open up? Houston might be opening now, but that development occurred after Borrowaway acqured the Coyotes lock, stock, and bottomless barrel.

Wasn't the date for renewal/non-renewal Jan 1st for Gila River Arena? That might reveal some of Borroway's intentions in advance.

 

[BattleBorn]

Don't count on anything but a normal renewal on Jan 1. Even if something was happening, I'm sure the penalty for not playing 6 months at GRA under the lease due to relocation isn't enough to make anyone think twice about anything.

 

[Negan4Coach]

Pardon me if this is a dumb question...but have there really been 130 iterations of this thread? All with fun little names? I guess I don't get how or why the Coyotes garner this level of attention. I get there have been manifold problems there like forever, but it seems obvious to me that no matter what, this team will continue to play in a dumb arena when it should be in Glendale in perpetuity, and nothing is going to happen. The level of scrutinizing every little minutiae regarding this team is just baffling to me.

 

[Glacial]

Pardon me if this is a dumb question...but have there really been 130 iterations of this thread? All with fun little names? I guess I don't get how or why the Coyotes garner this level of attention. I get there have been manifold problems there like forever, but it seems obvious to me that no matter what, this team will continue to play in a dumb arena when it should be in Glendale in perpetuity, and nothing is going to happen. The level of scrutinizing every little minutiae regarding this team is just baffling to me.

Yes. There have been that many. The Coyotes Saga has gone on for a loooooong time. Some threads take months to reach near 1000 posts, some have open & closed in mere hours (around some infamous city council meetings). It has gotten so much attention because the NHL lied and covered up what was going on with the Coyotes, then with the bankruptcy, it broke into the open and the relocation subplot began, with Hamiton, Seattle, et al, and anti-Sun Belt partisans watching it. Then when the city paid the NHL a generous "AMF" over 2x the high end of what cities/counties pay entities for AMFs and the NHL was not honoring its contract in good faith (taking the money, not rendering the services), it attracted a lot of attention from some segments of news-following folks because the Coyotes saga now became a nexus of government and corporate/sports malfeasance & incompetence. This is a trainwreck that's been going on since late last decade, and new twists and turns keep popping up and this has gone on far longer than any of the other infamous chapters in NHL ownership history (like Spano and the yakuza). That's why so much attention is paid to the Coyotes. What has happened to them since ~2008/09 has not been normal by any stretch.

3 main groups have contributed to the Phoenix threads being so prolific:
1.) Those interested in league machinitions, actions, schemes (including those drawn in through the government corruption angle),
2.) Coyotes fans (they want to know what the heck is going on with their team and want to defend their right to having a NHL team from relocation hounds),
3.) Relocation fans (either they want the Coyotes for themselves or they're offended there are so many Sun Belt teams and want as many of them as possible in 'traditional' hockey markets)

Think about it for a moment. If a topic has attracted so many posts over such a long period of time, that means there's something of interest there for people.

 

[TheLegend]

^^^^^ There’s been more than 130. If you count the some 15-20 side threads that sprouted up.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

So it is an auto renewal on Jan 1st? I thought those were over, how are the coyotes surviving without the 15million subsidy?