Phoenix CXXX: Sock it to ME

[mesamonster]

But isn't there always something going on in every major city every weekend?

It didn't affect the Suns as they still sold out at 18K plus and this is a team with even less expectations in a league with next to zero parity. Yes the opponent was the Lakers which is a big draw but that should be no different than the Blackhawks would be any other year as of late.

Something else has to be at a the root here.

I think we all have a reasonable idea of what plagues this franchise. Start with unstable ownership, a poor location, no playoffs for five years, looking at six with the present team. We can throw in a few more variables and what you end up with is fan fatigue, they have seen enough to know that all is not well in Glendale and may never be.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

the Suns are in worse shape than the Coyotes really are, who fires 4 coaches three games in, says something to the viability of Sarver running the NBA franchise into the ground, is Sarver Jerry Moyes 2.0

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It didn't affect the Suns as they still sold out at 18K plus and this is a team with even less expectations in a league with next to zero parity. Yes the opponent was the Lakers which is a big draw but that should be no different than the Blackhawks would be any other year as of late.

Can you source your numbers? I haven't seen any Suns games but IIRC one of the beat reporters claimed that one of their first four games this season was 12,000 fans short of capacity. And from the games I did see last season, the Suns' arena on any given non-Lakers night looks every bit as empty as the Coyotes' arena does.

 

[Mightygoose]

Can you source your numbers? I haven't seen any Suns games but IIRC one of the beat reporters claimed that one of their first four games this season was 12,000 fans short of capacity. And from the games I did see last season, the Suns' arena on any given non-Lakers night looks every bit as empty as the Coyotes' arena does.

I find CBC is one of the few sites that report attendances in their box scores.

The link below is from their Oct. 20 game vs. the Laker at 18,055 which I understand is capacity. Granted it's sold and distributed too.

http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/basketbal...ata/NBA/results/2017-2018/boxscore968660.html

Last night vs. Sac 14,903 so they're not doing as hot but my understanding is expectations were kept low....only a handful of teams compete realistically in the NBA anyways

http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/basketbal...ata/NBA/results/2017-2018/boxscore968682.html

 

[Llama19]

I find CBC is one of the few sites that report attendances in their box scores.

The link below is from their Oct. 20 game vs. the Laker at 18,055 which I understand is capacity. Granted it's sold and distributed too.

http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/basketbal...ata/NBA/results/2017-2018/boxscore968660.html

Last night vs. Sac 14,903 so they're not doing as hot but my understanding is expectations were kept low....only a handful of teams compete realistically in the NBA anyways

http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/basketbal...ata/NBA/results/2017-2018/boxscore968682.html

Talking Stick Resort Arena (Capacity for basketball - 18,055)

10-18-17 - 18,055 (100%)
10-20-17 - 18,055 (100%)
10-23-17 - 14,903 (82.5%)

Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores

 

[awfulwaffle]

Why are we talking about the suns?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Why are we talking about the suns?

Because the Coyotes' attendance woes do not exist in a vacuum. This market doesn't support losers no matter how long the franchise has been around.

 

[TheLegend]

Because the Coyotes' attendance woes do not exist in a vacuum. This market doesn't support losers no matter how long the franchise has been around.

Yup... there was a lot of hype going into the Suns season right up until they got blown out by 40 in the opener.

Goes with with you were saying about the Coyotes attendance relative to how it’s first 8 games.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I think we all have a reasonable idea of what plagues this franchise. Start with unstable ownership, a poor location, no playoffs for five years, looking at six with the present team. We can throw in a few more variables and what you end up with is fan fatigue, they have seen enough to know that all is not well in Glendale and may never be.

I've yet to hear anyone complain, or show concern regarding the ownership being unstable, as a reason to not attend games.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Because the Coyotes' attendance woes do not exist in a vacuum. This market doesn't support losers no matter how long the franchise has been around.

They have had 3 games, the last one against a kings team that has had 11 straight losing seasons. You're reaching.

 

[blues10]

Talking Stick Resort Arena (Capacity for basketball - 18,055)

10-18-17 - 18,055 (100%)
10-20-17 - 18,055 (100%)
10-23-17 - 14,903 (82.5%)

Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores

Based on those numbers and it still may be early to call.....but Silver and Sarver are going to want to move away from downtown and into the East Valley where the fan base lives. Bettman and Barroway are precedent setting and the Suns are sure to follow.

 

[mesamonster]

I've yet to hear anyone complain, or show concern regarding the ownership being unstable, as a reason to not attend games.

Maybe not directly. But indirectly fans are fickle, they have pride in ownership of the team and what it stands for. When you walk into the building knowing that this ownership group is not spending the requisite funds to compete and have had ongoing issues with where they play etc. etc. Those facts are not kept secretly locked in the closet they are the underlying foundation of this franchise, they are characteristic of ownership whose primary objective is not winning but surviving, who wants to be associated with that?

 

[Llama19]

Maybe not directly. But indirectly fans are fickle, they have pride in ownership of the team and what it stands for. When you walk into the building knowing that this ownership group is not spending the requisite funds to compete and have had ongoing issues with where they play etc. etc. Those facts are not kept secretly locked in the closet they are the underlying foundation of this franchise, they are characteristic of ownership whose primary objective is not winning but surviving, who wants to be associated with that?

Foundationally...this organization needs to do something...as their playoff odds are down 2 to 2.7%...

Source: http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/Western/Pacific/Arizona.html

 

[TheLegend]

I've yet to hear anyone complain, or show concern regarding the ownership being unstable, as a reason to not attend games.

Maybe not directly. But indirectly fans are fickle, they have pride in ownership of the team and what it stands for. When you walk into the building knowing that this ownership group is not spending the requisite funds to compete and have had ongoing issues with where they play etc. etc. Those facts are not kept secretly locked in the closet they are the underlying foundation of this franchise, they are characteristic of ownership whose primary objective is not winning but surviving, who wants to be associated with that?

Even though the Coyotes have gone quiet about it, fans still know the arena situation lurks in the background. So it's understandable if they won't enter into a long term commitment, or don't get emotionally attached to the point where if they have multiple options to spend their entertainment dollar, then the Coyotes aren't going to be at the top of that list.

 

[Llama19]

Arizona Coyotes, Montreal Canadiens, New York Rangers have been early disasters

To quote:

"At this point last season, 13 of the 16 postseason teams were already cemented. Although anything can happen -- the Western Conference-champion Nashville Predators leapfrogged from the outside -- the Coyotes have an extra large hill to climb. Oh, and in the backdrop of all of this is the state of the franchise from a business perspective: whispers of relocation after decades of dysfunction and bankruptcy and near-bankruptcy in the desert."

Source: http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/21150975/nhl-league-biggest-tire-fires

 

[The Feckless Puck]

They have had 3 games, the last one against a kings team that has had 11 straight losing seasons. You're reaching.

I watched several Suns games last season where TSRA was less than half full. Understandable, given the dysfunction currently surrounding the team (one fan is even paying for a billboard that says #SarverOut, as if fans could convince the owner to sell ). My point is that teams like the Suns - and Diamondbacks, and even the Cardinals if they keep nosediving - will suffer from poor attendance if their on-field fortunes take a nose-dive even without the relocation-related Sword of Damocles that has hung over the Coyotes for years.

 

[mesamonster]

I watched several Suns games last season where TSRA was less than half full. Understandable, given the dysfunction currently surrounding the team (one fan is even paying for a billboard that says #SarverOut, as if fans could convince the owner to sell ). My point is that teams like the Suns - and Diamondbacks, and even the Cardinals if they keep nosediving - will suffer from poor attendance if their on-field fortunes take a nose-dive even without the relocation-related Sword of Damocles that has hung over the Coyotes for years.

The difference between those teams and the Coyotes is the media money. Each of those leagues teams can survive with mediocre attendance numbers. In the NHL, attendance is a key because of the relatively small media contribution. Doesn`t give Andy a whole lot of rom for failure? I still have a difficult time understanding how some were so optimistic about this present Coyotes roster? Many, many holes in it and the coaching staff was really not given enough to work with. Spend to the cap and add two quality FA`s and then perhaps this team might attempt to contend.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Because the Coyotes' attendance woes do not exist in a vacuum. This market doesn't support losers no matter how long the franchise has been around.

Always said Pheonix had a sports problem and not a hockey problem.

 

[Killion]

Maybe not directly. But indirectly fans are fickle, they have pride in ownership of the team and what it stands for. When you walk into the building knowing that this ownership group is not spending the requisite funds to compete and have had ongoing issues with where they play etc. etc. Those facts are not kept secretly locked in the closet they are the underlying foundation of this franchise, they are characteristic of ownership whose primary objective is not winning but surviving, who wants to be associated with that?

Then how would you explain Harold Ballard, Steve Stavro & MLSE? If fans truly are fickle & will only shell-out for winners, dont care about yesterday, last year or of past glories, the Silverware & Hero's of eras long since gone by then how is it that the Gardens & the ACC continued to play to packed houses for the last 50yrs? Despite the obvious differences between the two franchises there clearly does exist in Arizona as hard a core of hockey fans as exists in Toronto or any other top market (though obviously nowhere near the same numbers), and yes the major obstacle to wide spread fandom going viral has been the dysfunctional & intransigent nature of ownership & the League since the teams arrival in 96.

By almost any measure, most would agree that Buffalo really lucked out when Terry Pegula bought the franchise, a guy with lots of money who has gone all out, through the wall in creating & building infrastructure, installing top tier management etc, yet still I hear & read about people buying $9 tickets. Readily available for mid-week games against "lesser attractive" teams. We could go around the League & find similar. Even Montreal experiencing a downturn in demand. Ottawas' problems are well known, Vancouver having periods of ticket sales anemia at various times over the past 47yrs. The North Stars & Dallas. Chicago. Detroit. Boston. All of them. And, as you know, its my contention these problems are systemic. Too many meaningless regular season games, too much inventory. Inconvenient scheduling. The Regular Season & Playoffs should be wrapped up & done no later than the middle of April.

Regardless of whether you have deep pocketed or short pocketed ownership under the current NHL business model, according to the theory its not supposed to matter, as your 1/31 of a collective, a hive, and that whether you be a cellar dweller or a penthouse denizen of Hotel CAP does not matter. Your supposed to be "competitive". .500 hockey. That would be competitive. Yet we know this is not the case, its not happened, not happening, and not just in Arizona with the Coyotes. So again, I say these problems are systemic. Its a league problem. Its also patently unfair to the market that theyve become the Poster Boys for all that ails this League. The "fixes" Bettman's attempted to institute have all Boomeranged back on him & blown up in his face.

This is not strong leadership. If he genuinely wants to save the market he's going to have to swallow his foolish pride, drop the arrogance already & try to rebuild the bridges he himself in conjunction with LeBlanc & Barroway destroyed... and following that, this League really need to take a cold hard look at itself in the mirror & start to dealing straight up with its myriad of problems in order to move forward because as of now & for several years, stagnating. Yes League wide-revenues are up, Franchise Values at an all-time high but its all artificial, a bubble and the bubbles going to burst... and there will be casualties. The Coyotes already victims. These changes Im suggesting would be painful, fewer games, less gate, less money for the players, repeal & roll-back some of the rule changes instituted, giving back to Major Junior & Euro/Russian elite amateur & IIHF Federations & so on but I'm not seeing a real rosy future for the game, for the NHL nor for the Coyotes if they dont alter course.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Then how would you explain Harold Ballard, Steve Stavro & MLSE? If fans truly are fickle & will only shell-out for winners, dont care about yesterday, last year or of past glories, the Silverware & Hero's of eras long since gone by then how is it that the Gardens & the ACC continued to play to packed houses for the last 50yrs?

Harold Ballard existed in a very different time. If you put a Harold Ballard in a situation like modern-day Phoenix, do you really think his clown act would sell a single ticket? When there's great weather, a million other things to do in-market, not to mention three other Big Four franchises in town, etc.? Ballard had a complete monopoly in Toronto - virtually all of his peers in the NHL at the time did too - and it should be noted too that the end of the reserve clause and free agency was not yet a thing when he was in power. His Leafs played before a captive audience. In markets like Phoenix, there is no such thing as a captive audience - any entertainment property of any type has to scratch, claw, and battle for every set of eyeballs.

 

[Killion]

Harold Ballard existed in a very different time. If you put a Harold Ballard in a situation like modern-day Phoenix, do you really think his clown act would sell a single ticket?

Right, however I was addressing mesa's thesis and all things being relative fans do overlook or plug their noses when shelling out for tickets knowings their hard earned money is enriching someone who they dislike & or despise, distrust, dont have any faith or confidence in.

 

[mesamonster]

Right, however I was addressing mesa's thesis and all things being relative fans do overlook or plug their noses when shelling out for tickets knowings their hard earned money is enriching someone who they dislike & or despise, distrust, dont have any faith or confidence in.

I would say we are both right to some degree. Thought this year the fans may be holding their expendable sports dollars after watching the Coyotes less than stellar start to this season. A little bit of battle fatigue and disgust with the way this organization has been so badly managed.

 

[garbageteam]

Always said Pheonix had a sports problem and not a hockey problem.

External factors don't excuse attendance issues. If a city has a sports problem, wouldn't it make sense to not over-saturate it with pro sports options to the point where limited attention and entertainment dollars are not divvied up amongst the losers?

 

[mesamonster]

Time for some soul searching after their tenth straight game without a win. What does a fearless owner like AB do now? Obviously, they have oversold and under delivered in an era that puts a premium on results. Both Chayka and Tocchet need to be evaluated as to their relative value add for this squad. Good ownership should step in and make some changes, status quo now is not the right move!

 

[Llama19]

Time for some soul searching after their tenth straight game without a win. What does a fearless owner like AB do now? Obviously, they have oversold and under delivered in an era that puts a premium on results. Both Chayka and Tocchet need to be evaluated as to their relative value add for this squad. Good ownership should step in and make some changes, status quo now is not the right move!

Trust the Process...

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/21169725/nhl-gm-john-chayka-says-arizona-coyotes-fixed-overnight