Phil Kessel. Trade Watch On? | He's Literally Frozen

[showtime8]

My reason for trading Phil Kessel would be simply because I see us as being 3-4 years away before being able to turn this around to the point where we could hope not only to the playoffs but adding players to the group to start thinking about going multiple rounds in the playoffs.

Kessel at this point in time will return back a lot of assets and would be the reason you might be able to rebuild in 3-4 years and not 5-7.

In terms of his fitness, there is a couple of thoughts here, i've seen him in person a couple of times, same with a buddy as he's a member of a golf course I worked/he works at and his head is definitely larger then his body. This was like 3-4 years ago.

I do not think he is an amazingly in shape guy, and from everything i've heard his eating habits are pretty bad for a professional athlete. (won't bother going into heard from a friend etc stuff, figured i'd just say what I have seen).

Either way any way you slice it, my desire to see him moved mostly stems from wanting us to do a full blown rebuild.

You aren't allowed to say anything about him being in any sort of shape because there was fitness testing that some guy might have heard that said he was in decent shape.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Why is it the people who say ALL reports about Kessel being uncoachable, refusing to change wings, refusing to play the system, having a bad attitude etc... are complete BS and made up are also the people who cling to reports that was 3rd in fitness testing?

I wonder why 1 set of reports are "baseless" while another is gospel

People say all kinds of crap. People have also said that Kessel IS coachable. As far as being in or out of shape goes, perhaps it has something to do with the fact that people actually watch the games and realize that's it's not possible to be out of shape and play the way he does. Have you watched Phil skate?

LOL - except there is a possiblity it might.

While Shanahan hasn't come out and said "we are blowing this up and rebuilding", as far as I know he said "we absolutely are not blowing this, Kessel WILL be a Leaf next year" either.

There has been more then 1 report that the Leafs are shopping their core players......

I'm sorry mits but your hero might follow your "boy Burke" out the door.

None of this shows how you "know" that Jones won't be traded.

The other points about how there are no goal scorers that get better after they hit 30. And getting the highest return at this point.

Is there a question in there somewhere?

 

[showtime8]

People say all kinds of crap. People have also said that Kessel IS coachable. As far as being in or out of shape goes, perhaps it has something to do with the fact that people actually watch the games and realize that's it's not possible to be out of shape and play the way he does. Have you watched Phil skate?



None of this shows how you "know" that Jones won't be traded.



Is there a question in there somewhere?

I've watched Phil skate down the wing and not get touched. I've also seen him skate on the power play when he's got tons of space and won't get touched there.

I'm stating that the only point that you're keying on is that he's in shape and dis-regard my whole post about getting the highest return on him now and that after goal scorers hit 30, none of them seem to sustain the pace that they're on when they're in their mid to late 20's. So why are the Leafs going to keep him if this is the case? The Leafs won't be a good team for another 3 years and by that time, Kessel's play will diminish and his numbers won't be there anymore. So why not trade him now?

 

[Muston Atthews]

Why is it the people who say ALL reports about Kessel being uncoachable, refusing to change wings, refusing to play the system, having a bad attitude etc... are complete BS and made up are also the people who cling to reports that was 3rd in fitness testing?

I wonder why 1 set of reports are "baseless" while another is gospel

Because the people who have made these reports have said nothing but negative things about Kessel throughout his tenure as a Leaf. They hide behind an anonymous source when the team is struggling. They aren't providing any facts, they are speculating from their sources. Feschuk has been so privy to information in the Leafs organization that he had to ask Reimer's mother for an injury update. Every single Feschuk article has been trade Phil, trade Dion and just a negative spin on the Leafs.

Cox's report has no reason to be false. He's been negative against Phil, advocating against his trade and he provided facts. Not just speculative reports from an anonymous source.

LOL - except there is a possiblity it might.

While Shanahan hasn't come out and said "we are blowing this up and rebuilding", as far as I know he said "we absolutely are not blowing this, Kessel WILL be a Leaf next year" either.

There has been more then 1 report that the Leafs are shopping their core players......

I'm sorry mits but your hero might follow your "boy Burke" out the door.

And no one in Preds organization has said that Jones is off limits. In fact, Poile has come out and said how much he likes Kessel as a player and how he coveted him out of Boston. So really, my theory sounds more sound than yours.

Kessel isn't my "hero". I have maintained that I would be open to a Kessel trade if it makes the team better. I just find it ridiculous the witch hunt that has been made out against Phil, stemming from Dave Feschuk and Bill Watters reports. It's ridiculous. And "my boy Burke". When has he ever been my boy?

 

[silentbob37*]

Who said Kessel is coachable? Toews?

I've always said Kessel appears to me to be in just good enough shape to do what he wants/needs to do. He goes out there, floats for 30 seconds, skates hard for 15, goes back to the bench winded. He is definately more of a sprinter then a long distance guy. But just given the eye ball test (I posted the picture with his gut hanging over his pants compared to Lidstrom shirtless......) and given comments made by his coach (ie - he is lazy, which Carlyle DID basically say) I don't believe he is in the best shape an individual could be in, and I think its hard to make that argument, and a report from Cox does NOT prove or even indicate that. And I do have tow onder if he was in better shape would he be that much better? Could it be the difference between 37 and 40 goals?

Hell, there is a picture of him at all-star weekend eating at Harvey's. Not exactly a healthy choice there...... Think Gary Roberts eats a lot of fast food?

and Seth Jones is not being traded. Poile is not Burke, he is a good GM. He won't do that.

 

[silentbob37*]

Because the people who have made these reports have said nothing but negative things about Kessel throughout his tenure as a Leaf. They hide behind an anonymous source when the team is struggling. They aren't providing any facts, they are speculating from their sources. Feschuk has been so privy to information in the Leafs organization that he had to ask Reimer's mother for an injury update. Every single Feschuk article has been trade Phil, trade Dion and just a negative spin on the Leafs.

Cox's report has no reason to be false. He's been negative against Phil, advocating against his trade and he provided facts. Not just speculative reports from an anonymous source.



And no one in Preds organization has said that Jones is off limits. In fact, Poile has come out and said how much he likes Kessel as a player and how he coveted him out of Boston. So really, my theory sounds more sound than yours.

Kessel isn't my "hero". I have maintained that I would be open to a Kessel trade if it makes the team better. I just find it ridiculous the witch hunt that has been made out against Phil, stemming from Dave Feschuk and Bill Watters reports. It's ridiculous. And "my boy Burke". When has he ever been my boy?

Cox is and has been negative about Kessel. Cox said that question Feschuk asked perfectly fair and it was bad on Kessel for not answering. Just be honest - you want to believe the positive reports but not the negative ones. Thats as simple as it is. You only want to believe the best about your hero and your boy.

If you need to be told everything bfore you figure it out........ Poile is a good GM, he isn't goign to give up a D-man with Franhcise, Norris potential for Kessel. Not happening. He can like Kessel more thent he Leafs do, he isn't giving up Jones for him. And if that was possible, it would have happened already, Shanahan isn't dumb enough to not take that deal. Go check out the Predators board and look for the rumors from leaf land thread, see what they think about Kessel for Jones.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I've watched Phil skate down the wing and not get touched. I've also seen him skate on the power play when he's got tons of space and won't get touched there.

I'm stating that the only point that you're keying on is that he's in shape and dis-regard my whole post about getting the highest return on him now and that after goal scorers hit 30, none of them seem to sustain the pace that they're on when they're in their mid to late 20's. So why are the Leafs going to keep him if this is the case? The Leafs won't be a good team for another 3 years and by that time, Kessel's play will diminish and his numbers won't be there anymore. So why not trade him now?

Why are you asking me this? I've never said we must keep him. I can see the case for keeping him though (just as I can see the case for trading him). My only hope is that whatever is done, is done within the context of an intelligent long term plan.

I will say though that the idea that Kessel's play will diminish and his numbers won't be there any more is fantasy. It goes with your baseless drivel that Kessel is out of shape though so at least I understand where it's coming from.

 

[WTFMAN99]

You aren't allowed to say anything about him being in any sort of shape because there was fitness testing that some guy might have heard that said he was in decent shape.

I think someone, it might of even been Randy Carlyle that said Phil was like top 5 in fitness for the Leafs which means 1 of 2 things.

1 Bull..you get the idea
2. The rest of the players are in terrible shape

 

[Muston Atthews]

Cox is and has been negative about Kessel. Cox said that question Feschuk asked perfectly fair and it was bad on Kessel for not answering. Just be honest - you want to believe the positive reports but not the negative ones. Thats as simple as it is. You only want to believe the best about your hero and your boy.

You're being dense. Cox has been negative about Kessel his whole career as a Maple Leafs. Knowing that, why would Cox come out and lie to make Kessel look good? It doesn't make any sense. You laid it out for yourself and you still don't see it

If you need to be told everything bfore you figure it out........ Poile is a good GM, he isn't goign to give up a D-man with Franhcise, Norris potential for Kessel. Not happening. He can like Kessel more thent he Leafs do, he isn't giving up Jones for him. And if that was possible, it would have happened already, Shanahan isn't dumb enough to not take that deal. Go check out the Predators board and look for the rumors from leaf land thread, see what they think about Kessel for Jones.

You're schtick was fun at first. Poile may be a good GM but that doesn't mean he won't make that trade. You have no idea what he is thinking. People in here are advocating for Jones because that is what the return for Kessel should be. We shouldn't give Kessel away for scraps, that would be idiotic. Everyone in this thread is speculating. The deal probably isn't on the table, like I said before, it is us fans who are advocating for getting Jones in a trade for Kessel. For all we know management has no plans on trading Kessel, which is why Shanahan hasn't pulled the trigger on "the Jones for Kessel deal".

Why would I care about what Predators fans have to say about a deal? I care about as much as I care about what you, my mother, or some dude at a local bar thinks about a Kessel for Jones trade. What I, and others are saying that if we are trading Kessel to Nashville, Jones needs to be coming back.

 

[showtime8]

Why are you asking me this? I've never said we must keep him. I can see the case for keeping him though (just as I can see the case for trading him). My only hope is that whatever is done, is done within the context of an intelligent long term plan.

I will say though that the idea that Kessel's play will diminish and his numbers won't be there any more is fantasy. It goes with your baseless drivel that Kessel is out of shape though so at least I understand where it's coming from.

I'm basing the fact that Kessel's numbers will go down after multiple players around the league.

I think it would be very hard to find a player whose stats went up or even sustained the same pace after he hit 30.

Marian Hossa, Joe Thornton & Patrick Marleau are the only 3 guys that I could think of that after their 31st birthday are still putting up numbers. A lot of other examples are guys that run into injury trouble and can't keep the pace going.

 

[silentbob37*]

You're being dense. Cox has been negative about Kessel his whole career as a Maple Leafs. Knowing that, why would Cox come out and lie to make Kessel look good? It doesn't make any sense. You laid it out for yourself and you still don't see it



You're schtick was fun at first. Poile may be a good GM but that doesn't mean he won't make that trade. You have no idea what he is thinking. People in here are advocating for Jones because that is what the return for Kessel should be. We shouldn't give Kessel away for scraps, that would be idiotic. Everyone in this thread is speculating. The deal probably isn't on the table, like I said before, it is us fans who are advocating for getting Jones in a trade for Kessel. For all we know management has no plans on trading Kessel, which is why Shanahan hasn't pulled the trigger on "the Jones for Kessel deal".

Why would I care about what Predators fans have to say about a deal? I care about as much as I care about what you, my mother, or some dude at a local bar thinks about a Kessel for Jones trade. What I, and others are saying that if we are trading Kessel to Nashville, Jones needs to be coming back.

I lvoe that you don't understand the point we're making is, all the times Cox is negative about your hero you say he is an idiot, just makes thing sup, the reports aren't valid etc... But as soon as he says Kessel did well........Well we have to take it as 100% true. Thats why we are laughing at you.

Maybe Cox just doesn't like the he is fat criticism so he made up something to silence those.

THere is abig middle ground between JOnes and scraps, and the Leafs won't get Jones, its a fantasy. He may go to Nashville but Jones won't be coming to Toronto.

I will BET YOU that Jones won't be a Leaf. If he isn't a Leaf after the trade deadline you change your screen name to Silentbob>Mits until the start of next season. I'll do the same if he is a Leaf after the trade deadline. Somehow I think your resolve on this issue is about to go away.

 

[silentbob37*]

Originally Posted by Gary Nylund View Post
Why are you asking me this? I've never said we must keep him. I can see the case for keeping him though (just as I can see the case for trading him). My only hope is that whatever is done, is done within the context of an intelligent long term plan.

I will say though that the idea that Kessel's play will diminish and his numbers won't be there any more is fantasy. It goes with your baseless drivel that Kessel is out of shape though so at least I understand where it's coming from.

No, its fact. The question is when.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

People say all kinds of crap. People have also said that Kessel IS coachable. As far as being in or out of shape goes, perhaps it has something to do with the fact that people actually watch the games and realize that's it's not possible to be out of shape and play the way he does. Have you watched Phil skate?

Not a great point mate. Just from a personal stand point I've always been an amazing sprinter. Always one of the fastest in each level. I use to be extremely out of shape. I wont say Kessel is out of shape, but just because Kessel skates fast doesn't mean he's in optimal shape.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I'm basing the fact that Kessel's numbers will go down after multiple players around the league.

I think it would be very hard to find a player whose stats went up or even sustained the same pace after he hit 30.

Marian Hossa, Joe Thornton & Patrick Marleau are the only 3 guys that I could think of that after their 31st birthday are still putting up numbers. A lot of other examples are guys that run into injury trouble and can't keep the pace going.

Ah this post made me miss Mats. PPG player at 37-38.

 

[showtime8]

Ah this post made me miss Mats. PPG player at 37-38.

Elite players that you can build around don't come often.

I miss Mats too. And that damn milk commercial.

 

[Gallagbi]

Who said Kessel is coachable? Toews?

Said Poile:

“I love Phil as a player. Who wouldn’t want to have what he produces offensively? I’ve read all the things about him being uncoachable, and from my experience, that is not the case. In terms of him having issues getting along with teammates, playing his role and performing for his coach, absolutely not.â€

 

[Muston Atthews]

I lvoe that you don't understand the point we're making is, all the times Cox is negative about your hero you say he is an idiot, just makes thing sup, the reports aren't valid etc... But as soon as he says Kessel did well........Well we have to take it as 100% true. Thats why we are laughing at you.

Man, you're so funny calling Kessel my hero. It really never gets old Find my posts that I have referred to Cox as an idiot wrt Kessel. I'll be waiting a while.

Maybe Cox just doesn't like the he is fat criticism so he made up something to silence those.

This isn't even English.

THere is abig middle ground between JOnes and scraps, and the Leafs won't get Jones, its a fantasy. He may go to Nashville but Jones won't be coming to Toronto.

You have no idea about that. You're just talking out of your ass as usual. Kessel could be traded for Crosby, or Rinaldo. None of us know this. I don't know why you pretend that you do.

I will BET YOU that Jones won't be a Leaf. If he isn't a Leaf after the trade deadline you change your screen name to Silentbob>Mits until the start of next season. I'll do the same if he is a Leaf after the trade deadline. Somehow I think your resolve on this issue is about to go away.

First off, I never said Jones was going to be apart of a Kessel trade to Nashville. I said, as fans, a lot of us think that if Kessel goes to Nashville, Jones needs to be part of the package coming back. Again, your lack of reading comprehension is lacking.

Secondly, I never said Kessel would be traded at the trade deadline. I don't even really think Kessel will be traded

How about we make this bet: Kessel will be apart of the Leafs after the trade deadline. I think he will, you think he won't. We'll use the same stakes. I'm good with that.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Not a great point mate. Just from a personal stand point I've always been an amazing sprinter. Always one of the fastest in each level. I use to be extremely out of shape. I wont say Kessel is out of shape, but just because Kessel skates fast doesn't mean he's in optimal shape.

Good thing an NHL shift is a sprint, not a long distance run.

 

[silentbob37*]

Man, you're so funny calling Kessel my hero. It really never gets old Find my posts that I have referred to Cox as an idiot wrt Kessel. I'll be waiting a while.



This isn't even English.



You have no idea about that. You're just talking out of your ass as usual. Kessel could be traded for Crosby, or Rinaldo. None of us know this. I don't know why you pretend that you do.



First off, I never said Jones was going to be apart of a Kessel trade to Nashville. I said, as fans, a lot of us think that if Kessel goes to Nashville, Jones needs to be part of the package coming back. Again, your lack of reading comprehension is lacking.

Secondly, I never said Kessel would be traded at the trade deadline. I don't even really think Kessel will be traded

How about we make this bet: Kessel will be apart of the Leafs after the trade deadline. I think he will, you think he won't. We'll use the same stakes. I'm good with that.

Ya thats what I thought. You like disagreeing, but you don't REALLY think it would happen.

 

[silentbob37*]

Good thing an NHL shift is a sprint, not a long distance run.

make the argument that being in better shape would hurt Kessel's game.

 

[TootooTrain]

make the argument that being in better shape would hurt Kessel's game.

Such a cop out response.

 

[RLF]

There is valid points for both keeping Phil and moving Phil for other assets.

If the Leafs decide to get rid of the rest of the core starting with Dion and Lupul, and gain young assets/picks and cap space, then keeping Phil may be possible.

If you want to re-build from youth and picks, then you try and move Phil and his contract along with the others mentioned.

Personally, I think it will be harder to move Dion and Lupul for instance for young assets/picks without bringing back a contract as well.

Phil probably gives the best chance of getting young assets and picks without having to take back a contract similar in stature. Although I doubt we get the popular Jones and a 1st for Phil. Would we trade Rielly and a 1st for Phil? Many would freak at moving Rielly, so why would Nashville move a potential top 10 d-man and a first for a Kessel? Jones could eventually replace Weber down the road. Ellis, a 1st + a mid prospect is something I think Nash may be willing to do.

With the state of the Leaf organization, trading Phil may be the best chance to start to build a solid team. On the other hand, if the Leafs can figure out a way to surround him with the right players (although I don't see how), then keeping Phil can be a positive.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm basing the fact that Kessel's numbers will go down after multiple players around the league.

I think it would be very hard to find a player whose stats went up or even sustained the same pace after he hit 30.

Marian Hossa, Joe Thornton & Patrick Marleau are the only 3 guys that I could think of that after their 31st birthday are still putting up numbers. A lot of other examples are guys that run into injury trouble and can't keep the pace going.

Don't panic dude. Kessel is a long way from 31.

I lvoe that you don't understand the point we're making is, all the times Cox is negative about your hero you say he is an idiot, just makes thing sup, the reports aren't valid etc... But as soon as he says Kessel did well........Well we have to take it as 100% true. Thats why we are laughing at you.

Maybe Cox just doesn't like the he is fat criticism so he made up something to silence those.

THere is abig middle ground between JOnes and scraps, and the Leafs won't get Jones, its a fantasy. He may go to Nashville but Jones won't be coming to Toronto.

I will BET YOU that Jones won't be a Leaf. If he isn't a Leaf after the trade deadline you change your screen name to Silentbob>Mits until the start of next season. I'll do the same if he is a Leaf after the trade deadline. Somehow I think your resolve on this issue is about to go away.

That's a lot different from saying with 100% certainty as you have been doing that he absolutely will not be traded. If you're so sure, why not say this:

If a trade takes place during the next 13 months that involves Kessel going to Nashville and Jones coming to Toronto than I silentbob will put in my location "I resolve to be less arrogant in the future".

After all, nobody is saying that a Kessel-Jones trade is likely to happen, just that is definitely in the realm of possibility and worth thinking about.

Not a great point mate. Just from a personal stand point I've always been an amazing sprinter. Always one of the fastest in each level. I use to be extremely out of shape. I wont say Kessel is out of shape, but just because Kessel skates fast doesn't mean he's in optimal shape.

And this anecdotal "evidence" is totally worthless. Can you figure out for yourself why that is?

Ah this post made me miss Mats. PPG player at 37-38.

Hmm ...

Said Poile:

“I love Phil as a player. Who wouldn’t want to have what he produces offensively? I’ve read all the things about him being uncoachable, and from my experience, that is not the case. In terms of him having issues getting along with teammates, playing his role and performing for his coach, absolutely not.â€

OMG this cant' be true can it?

On the subject of Jones, I had a look at their board, it's kind of like our board (reassuring), most people want to get Kessel without giving up anyone good. Kind of like people here propose trade where we get the guy we want and give up guys we really don't care for anymore (Bozak + Franson + 2nd round pick being a typical example). A few of them get it (gotta give something to get something) and are willing to part with Jones.

One thing several said was that if Jones is part of the deal, they'd want a d-man coming back the other way. Frason was mentioned, I can't remember the exact proposal but it was an interesting thought. Kessel + Franson for Jones and a 1st has potential IMO, could be just what both teams are looking for. As one guy put it (paraphrasing here) - we'd miss Jones down the line but we'd have a banner hanging in the rafters.

Hmm, a banner in the rafters. Isn't that what it's all about?

Oh yeah, none of them seem to have any concern about Phil being uncoachable. They see him as an elite player, the kind that rarely becomes available and are positively drooling at the idea of him playing for them. The also see part of the attraction being that he is locked up for a long period of time.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Ya thats what I thought. You like disagreeing, but you don't REALLY think it would happen.

That's not what I said at all. You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Would save you from a lot of arguments. So are you taking the bet or nah?

 

[silentbob37*]

Such a cop out response.

No its not. To the comment that Kessel isn't in optimal shape this was said

Good thing an NHL shift is a sprint, not a long distance run.

Yes, Kessel is good enough shape to play his game. But is good enough good enough? Would being in optimal shape not improve Kessel's game? At the very least, is there any way being in better shape would hurt Kessel's game?

There is valid points for both keeping Phil and moving Phil for other assets.

If the Leafs decide to get rid of the rest of the core starting with Dion and Lupul, and gain young assets/picks and cap space, then keeping Phil may be possible.

If you want to re-build from youth and picks, then you try and move Phil and his contract along with the others mentioned.

Personally, I think it will be harder to move Dion and Lupul for instance for young assets/picks without bringing back a contract as well.

Phil probably gives the best chance of getting young assets and picks without having to take back a contract similar in stature. Although I doubt we get the popular Jones and a 1st for Phil. Would we trade Rielly and a 1st for Phil? Many would freak at moving Rielly, so why would Nashville move a potential top 10 d-man and a first for a Kessel? Jones could eventually replace Weber down the road. Ellis, a 1st + a mid prospect is something I think Nash may be willing to do.

With the state of the Leaf organization, trading Phil may be the best chance to start to build a solid team. On the other hand, if the Leafs can figure out a way to surround him with the right players (although I don't see how), then keeping Phil can be a positive.

I've yet to hear a good reason to keep him. It maybe POSSIBLE to keep him, but there is no reason too, other then keep Mits happy.