Prospect Info: Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc.

[Psuhockey]

Free prospects are free prospects. The Flyers won't have as many picks when they are contenders and past the first round or two is largely random and not a credit to Hextall (outside of strategy to not draft Klotz types anymore).

I don’t think Hextall will ever be the type to unload a majority of picks. The league is changing and modern GMs are wising up about the importance of draft picks.

I also don’t think you can just say it’s complete luck snagging NHL players after the second round. If that was the case, you wouldn’t have the same scouting departments doing over and over again while other ones completely fail over and over again.

 

[hatcher]

Got tickets to the first round for the rockets against tri cities. Big Carsen should be ready to hammer afew lol and save some points.

 

[hatcher]

2011... sure I'd love to get swept in the 2nd round again. If 2011 is the goal then we should throw in the towel.

And I'm absolutely not wrong on the forward group. If you think our forward group is even comparable to the 2010 group then this conversation ends here.

Have you looked at our goalies lately....? if Elliot takes longer to recover than we expect we are in for a 4-5 game exit.

Haha not even close to the 2010 group.

 

[FLYguy3911]

when is the deadline to sign the D+2 draftees? Curious to see if they sign Salintri...thought it would be a long shot.

6/1/18

 

[Deadpool8812]

That 2010 team was stacked now that you look back at it. They underachieved all season and got healthy for the playoffs.

Homer gets a lot of flack for things he's done, but he built a great team that came 2 wins away from winning it all. Trading for Pronger, acquiring Leino, signing Emery...

If they had a legit NHL goalie, they probably would have won. It's unfortunate that Emery got injured, because he was looking pretty good beforehand. Hell, if Carter wouldn't have choked and actually scored a big goal for us in the playoffs, we may have even won game 7 despite having Leighton in net.

 

[Curufinwe]

And then the 10-11 Flyers were the 3rd best team in the NHL, but fell apart in the playoffs.

NHL.com - Stats

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Zherdev-Giroux-Carter
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Richards-Nodl/Versteeg
Carcillo-Betts-Powe

Pronger-Carle
Kimmo-Coburn
O'Donnell-Meszaros

Bob - 52 starts, .915
Bouch - 29 starts, .916

 

[deadhead]

Other potential downside of Hextall's slow cooking of prospects is that 23-25 year old college UFAs might hesitate to sign. Vecchione can't be happy. If it was you, would you sign with the Flyers or a team like the Bruins that views playing younger players as an advantage, not a liability?

As I've shown repeatedly, Hextall doesn't slow cook prospects anymore than most GMs.
Vecchione is in the AHL because, well, he's an AHL caliber player. He's not done anything that would say he's NHL ready.
The Bruins play a lot of "rookies" who were marinated, their roster this year looks like the probable Flyer roster next year:
[age when they made the Bruins]

Grzelczk - 23 (turned 24 in January), 4 years college, 1 year AHL, started this year in AHL
Krug - 22, 3 years college, 1 year AHL
Bjork - 21, 3 years college, started in AHL before promotion
Donato - 21, 3 years college
Heinen - 22, 2 years college, 1 year AHL
Kuraly - 24, 4 years college, 1 year AHL
Acciari - 25, 4 years college, 2 years bouncing between AHL and Boston

Even the more rapid promotions parallel how Hextall handled top picks like Provorov (19), TK (19), Patrick (19)
DeBrusk - 20, 2 PD juniors, 1 year AHL
Carlo - 20, 2 PD juniors
McAvoy 20, 2 years college
Pastrnak 18, Czech league

Next year, Frost (19), NAK (22), Myers (21), Morin (23), Vorobyev (21).
Most of the junior players who'll be in LHV will be 20 or 21, the college players (Allison (21), Laczynski (21), Marody (22).

Given the Flyers prospect depth, I doubt Hextall will bother to chase marginal college prospects the next few years, he'll focus on only the top college free agents. There's no point signing a 23 year old to play him on the Phantom's 4th line.

 

[Rebels57]

And then the 10-11 Flyers were the 3rd best team in the NHL, but fell apart in the playoffs.

NHL.com - Stats

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Zherdev-Giroux-Carter
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Richards-Nodl/Versteeg
Carcillo-Betts-Powe

Pronger-Carle
Kimmo-Coburn
O'Donnell-Meszaros

Bob - 52 starts, .915
Bouch - 29 starts, .916

That Versteeg acquisition really backfired, but at least we ended up with Ghost because of it.

 

[FlyTimmo]

That 2010 team was stacked now that you look back at it. They underachieved all season and got healthy for the playoffs.

Homer gets a lot of flack for things he's done, but he built a great team that came 2 wins away from winning it all. Trading for Pronger, acquiring Leino, signing Emery...

If they had a legit NHL goalie, they probably would have won. It's unfortunate that Emery got injured, because he was looking pretty good beforehand. Hell, if Carter wouldn't have choked and actually scored a big goal for us in the playoffs, we may have even won game 7 despite having Leighton in net.

Homer does get a lot of flack and he did manage to create a strong team, but he should never have been GM in the 1st place.

How does a man who traded away Chris Pronger, Brendan Shanahan and Ron Francis still get a management position?

Pronger for Shanahan
Shanahan was then traded for Primeau, an old Paul Coffey and a 1st round pick (Nikos Tselios)
Ron Francis and Ulf Samuelsson for Jeff Parker, Zarley Zalapski and John Cullen

How does this man still have a job after that?

 

[Curufinwe]

If that's the standard, almost all the GMs in the league should not have their jobs.

 

[Rebels57]

Homer does get a lot of flack and he did manage to create a strong team, but he should never have been GM in the 1st place.

How does a man who traded away Chris Pronger, Brendan Shanahan and Ron Francis still get a management position?

Pronger for Shanahan
Shanahan was then traded for Primeau, an old Paul Coffey and a 1st round pick (Nikos Tselios)
Ron Francis and Ulf Samuelsson for Jeff Parker, Zarley Zalapski and John Cullen

How does this man still have a job after that?

His performance as GM between 07 and 11 suggests that he still had the capability of doing the job well.

He did an incredible job for the Flyers in those years. Transformed them from dead last to the Stanley Cup finals in 3 years, then when the core that got them there stagnated, he set the Flyers up for the future with the Carter/Richards trades.

 

[Bill_Meltzer]

Homer does get a lot of flack and he did manage to create a strong team, but he should never have been GM in the 1st place.

How does a man who traded away Chris Pronger, Brendan Shanahan and Ron Francis still get a management position?

Pronger for Shanahan
Shanahan was then traded for Primeau, an old Paul Coffey and a 1st round pick (Nikos Tselios)
Ron Francis and Ulf Samuelsson for Jeff Parker, Zarley Zalapski and John Cullen

How does this man still have a job after that?

Holmgren was GM of the Whalers for less than a year. He assumed the post on Oct. 6, 1993 (taking over for Brian Burke) and was replaced by Jim Rutherford on June 22, 1994. Homer was GM for the 1993-94 season only, starting out only in the GM role but then serving as dual GM/head coach for the rest of the season after he ended the disastrous coaching tenure of Pierre McGuire, who was not his hire in the first place.

On June 28, 1994, Jim Rutherford was hired as general manager. Holmgren remained on as head coach.

The specifics on the trades you list:

Francis and Samuelsson to the Penguins: Trade was made March 4, 1991 when Eddie Johnston was the Hurricanes' GM. Holmgren was still the Flyers head coach at that time.

Pronger to St. Louis for Shanahan: Trade was made July 27, 1995. Jim Rutherford was the Whalers' GM. Homer was Whalers head coach at the time.

Shanahan to Detroit for Primeau, Coffey, 1st rounder: trade was made on Oct. 9, 1996. Jim Rutherford was the Whalers' GM. Holmgren had been fired as head 12 games into the previous season (5-6-1 record). By the time of this trade, Holmgren had returned to the Flyers to work under Bob Clarke as the director of pro scouting.

 

[deadhead]

Holmgren's problem was he was under pressure to win now, and money was no object.
So he could load up on veterans and sacrificed prospects and draft picks (this just continued what Clarke did, but better).

Hextall is in a different world, the cap changes everything.

Where Hextall has excelled is building a personnel group, anyone can hit on a 1st rd pick, even this board could, but finding someone like Lindblom in the 5th round, and the guys coming up the next couple years taken in the later rounds, that's where you get a competitive edge.

The other quality Hextall has is patience, there's so much pressure to win now in most organizations that rebuilds are never finished, and the result is mediocrity. Marinating prospects might frustrate fans, but it increases the odds that a player will succeed with THIS organization (how many players have been rushed, struggled, traded, then get their stuff together with their new team?).

Of course, it helps to win the lottery and land Patrick (payback for missing Kane).

 

[mja]

Pronger to St. Louis for Shanahan: Trade was made July 27, 1995. Jim Rutherford was the Whalers' GM. Homer was Whalers head coach at the time.

Shanahan to Detroit for Primeau, Coffey, 1st rounder: trade was made on Oct. 9, 1996. Jim Rutherford was the Whalers' GM. Holmgren had been fired as head 12 games into the previous season (5-6-1 record). By the time of this trade, Holmgren had returned to the Flyers to work under Bob Clarke as the director of pro scouting.

I think the clear takeaway from this is that Jim Rutherford isn't fit to be a GM in the NHL. I don't see how any team could win a cup under his watch.

 

[hatcher]

And then the 10-11 Flyers were the 3rd best team in the NHL, but fell apart in the playoffs.

NHL.com - Stats

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Zherdev-Giroux-Carter
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Richards-Nodl/Versteeg
Carcillo-Betts-Powe

Pronger-Carle
Kimmo-Coburn
O'Donnell-Meszaros

Bob - 52 starts, .915
Bouch - 29 starts, .916

The speed and skill and size of the team compared to this team is night and day.

 

[Jtown]

I think the clear takeaway from this is that Jim Rutherford isn't fit to be a GM in the NHL. I don't see how any team could win a cup under his watch.

Lol. truly awful, i mean who could ever win with that guy at the helm

 

[Deadpool8812]

Homer's biggest fault was not finding a goalie after 2010. Yes, I know he found Bob but he should have went out and got a veteran that could at least platoon with Bob. Losing Pronger just made things worse and was the end of that core.

It just got worse after Bryzgalov came in but that's on Snider

 

[flyersfan187]

I thought Homer's biggest mistake was not getting players to fit in Lavy's system. They seemed to go two opposite directions in what they wanted on the team.

 

[Jtown]

Homer's biggest fault was not finding a goalie after 2010. Yes, I know he found Bob but he should have went out and got a veteran that could at least platoon with Bob. Losing Pronger just made things worse and was the end of that core.

It just got worse after Bryzgalov came in but that's on Snider

The offseason after the devils series lost was a frustrating one. Lockout, weber offer sheet, 2 terrible trades , losing Jagr, Brier losing it.

That 2011-2012 team was one of the most stacked flyers team of all time. The flyers have always had terrible depth, but not during the Homer years, and this was our best version on of that depth. Had Pronger stayed healthy who knows what would have happened.

 

[Jtown]

I thought Homer's biggest mistake was not getting players to fit in Lavy's system. They seemed to go two opposite directions in what they wanted on the team.

Exactly, Luke schenn is not a lavy defender.

 

[Deadpool8812]

I thought Homer's biggest mistake was not getting players to fit in Lavy's system. They seemed to go two opposite directions in what they wanted on the team.

That JVR trade was terrible. I hated it the moment I heard it was made. I had no problem trading JVR, but the return was awful

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

That 2010 team was stacked now that you look back at it. They underachieved all season and got healthy for the playoffs.

Homer gets a lot of flack for things he's done, but he built a great team that came 2 wins away from winning it all. Trading for Pronger, acquiring Leino, signing Emery...

If they had a legit NHL goalie, they probably would have won. It's unfortunate that Emery got injured, because he was looking pretty good beforehand. Hell, if Carter wouldn't have choked and actually scored a big goal for us in the playoffs, we may have even won game 7 despite having Leighton in net.

Lost Patrick Kane lottery and we went from the shittiest team in the league to one of the best in the matter of years. The kind of turn around in this league is as rare as a freaking unicorn. Such a shame it didn't last long.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Holmgren was GM of the Whalers for less than a year. He assumed the post on Oct. 6, 1993 (taking over for Brian Burke) and was replaced by Jim Rutherford on June 22, 1994. Homer was GM for the 1993-94 season only, starting out only in the GM role but then serving as dual GM/head coach for the rest of the season after he ended the disastrous coaching tenure of Pierre McGuire, who was not his hire in the first place.

On June 28, 1994, Jim Rutherford was hired as general manager. Holmgren remained on as head coach.

The specifics on the trades you list:

Francis and Samuelsson to the Penguins: Trade was made March 4, 1991 when Eddie Johnston was the Hurricanes' GM. Holmgren was still the Flyers head coach at that time.

Pronger to St. Louis for Shanahan: Trade was made July 27, 1995. Jim Rutherford was the Whalers' GM. Homer was Whalers head coach at the time.

Shanahan to Detroit for Primeau, Coffey, 1st rounder: trade was made on Oct. 9, 1996. Jim Rutherford was the Whalers' GM. Holmgren had been fired as head 12 games into the previous season (5-6-1 record). By the time of this trade, Holmgren had returned to the Flyers to work under Bob Clarke as the director of pro scouting.

I stand corrected. So, it can be concluded that Pierre should touch a coaching/management position and that Jim Rutherford sort of sucks.

 

[deadhead]

Lost Patrick Kane lottery and we went from the ****tiest team in the league to one of the best in the matter of years. The kind of turn around in this league is as rare as a freaking unicorn. Such a shame it didn't last long.

We averaged 100 points a year the previous ten seasons, so that bad season was more an anomaly than anything else.
There was a core of top talent:
Gagne (26)
Pitkanen (23) - traded for Lupul
Carter (22)
Richards (21)
Upshall (23)
Coburn (21)
R Jones (25)
Downie (19) - traded for Carle
Umberger (24) - signed 2004, 1-16 2001 by Van
Martin Biron would bounce back in 2007

And money helped a lot:
Briere - signed 2007
Kimmo and Hartnell signed (rights obtained with Nashville's 1st rd pick traded back) in 2007
What would it cost in today's NHL to sign three starters like this and how would it impact your cap room?

Giroux was drafted in 2006, came up in 2008
JVR was drafted in 2007, came up in 2009
Pronger obtained in 2009 for Sbisa, Lupul and 2 1st rd picks.

In the end, they traded 5 1st rd picks for Pronger, Kimmo and Hartnell, and signed Briere.
That made them competitive in the short-run but assured a collapse at some point (three key players well over 30).
And then the cap came along, and Holmgren couldn't buy his way out of this hole.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Upshall, Coburn, & Biron were all acquired in season of that disastrous year.

The issue with that team was the previous year’s team just got old in a hurry while the younger guys just weren’t at that point to take over. Primeau, Desjardins, Hatcher, etc.

They quickly turned it around the next season because the young guys in place stepped up along with the moves they made in that year & half.